Does GameWorks influences AMD's Cards game performance?

[railven]

PC gaming is in already bad position and if neither NV/AMD invested money we would see even more shoddy ports.The thing is as a AAA gaming platform PC is irrelevant except for MOBA/MMOS, optimizing pc games is the last priority of a developer.

So basically, you are arguing that I should have a card from each at the ready for when games come out crippled on one side?

Man, PC gaming is getting so much more like console gaming it's not even laughable anymore.

Just start offering "exclusives" and finish the job.

 

[Grooveriding]

Of course it does, it's obvious. Just look at the the gameworks games' performance/quirks at launch with each brand.

 

[Azix]

Just start offering "exclusives" and finish the job.

If it gets to that I really hope PC gamers aren't so pacified or stuck on fanboyism to protest it.

 

[boozzer]

If it gets to that I really hope PC gamers aren't so pacified or stuck on fanboyism to protest it.

just an honest opinion. most are sheeps. don't expect too much from them. and some even defends this D:

 

[railven]

If it gets to that I really hope PC gamers aren't so pacified or stuck on fanboyism to protest it.

just an honest opinion. most are sheeps. don't expect too much from them. and some even defends this D:

Few years ago I'd have said "nah, would never happen." But, honestly, people are so invested in their team I get the feeling they'd defend it and start the petty bickering of "Game lists" the console peeps love to hash out.

EDIT: The funny part is, the moment AMD does it, the in-fighting will start, and the two sides won't find even ground to turn this against AMD/NV. But these corporations know this, and it's why we're getting mid-range cards @ $500 price points, and devs know this why we get $40 Day one DLC paks.

They'll keep getting paid, while we keep getting fleeced.

EDIT #2: Paid mods? Glad it crashed and burned but the fact it ever got out the door is just an example of how much they think we're piggy banks waiting to be broken open. Bethesda tried it years ago with the horse armor and got rightful BTFO.

GTA now blocking users from using mods [even in "offline"/singleplayer mode]? GTFO! That is beyond STUPID.

 

[Headfoot]

I don't understand the question. GameWorks does for Nvidia what Gaming Evolved does for AMD, does it not?

Irrelevant.

If I punch you in the face, that's bad. It doesn't become less bad because you turn around and punch me in the face in return. You can compare which punch hurt more, but that's not the same thing.

 

[Headfoot]

IMO, not that irrelevant to many. We've seen many debates around that comparison that's why i added that option. There are people who believe GE also penalizes Nvidia.

The many are wrong. It's not the same issue. They are separate and distinct topics. Now, they can be compared -- > Is this conduct as bad as that conduct?

However, bad conduct does not in any way justify more bad conduct.

There are three separate topics which continually get conflated:
1) Does NV GameWorks Penalize AMD? Full stop.
2) Does AMD GE Penalize NV? Full stop.
3) How does GameWorks compare to GE? Full stop.

They are not answers to each other. They are separate topics with some crossover in terms of subject matter.

Anyone who answers "Does GameWorks penalize AMD?" with "But GE penalizes NV" is blatantly avoiding the question and dissembling, likely because they are emotionally invested in the outcome. The answer is either yes, or no, and either conclusion must be supported by factual evidence. Then you can compare the two.

 

[FatherMurphy]

Irrelevant.

If I punch you in the face, that's bad. It doesn't become less bad because you turn around and punch me in the face in return.

Hahaha, that's a funny image.

The problem with your metaphor is that it is illegal to punch someone in the face. These two companies are in legitimate competition and are supposed to "punch each other in the face." That's what market competition is.

 

[cbrunny]

Irrelevant.

If I punch you in the face, that's bad. It doesn't become less bad because you turn around and punch me in the face in return.

lol what? I was trying to clarify the question, not argue anything.

 

[Headfoot]

Hahaha, that's a funny image.

The problem with your metaphor is that it is illegal to punch someone in the face. These two companies are in legitimate competition and are supposed to "punch each other in the face." That's what market competition is.

not really a problem at all dude... think about it in pure moral "good or bad" terms if that helps you. Punching someone in the face is both illegal and morally wrong. I dont care about the illegal part for purposes of this analogy. Though I'm sure you could make an argument that GW might be illegal, whether that argument would be right or not I don't know as I've got little experience in anti trust or business tort law.

lol what? I was trying to clarify the question, not argue anything.

In that case I'd say check out Russian Sensation's post a few back. It's difficult to differentiate rhetorical "questions" and real questions via the internets

 

[S.H.O.D.A.N.]

Hahaha, that's a funny image.

The problem with your metaphor is that it is illegal to punch someone in the face. These two companies are in legitimate competition and are supposed to "punch each other in the face." That's what market competition is.

Yeah, each other. Increasingly common, it's the customer getting punched as well, just because he chose the wrong brand. Punched by a third party no less, at the instigation of one of the actual competitors.

 

[DeathReborn]

Money can be invested without harming consumers.

I don't understand why so many devs are willing to take the reputation hit that can come with using gameworks. And the financial loss from AMD users (massive portion of the market) avoiding your games.

http://www.dualshockers.com/2014/10...ected-to-sell-6-million-copies-in-first-year/

those numbers have PCs contribution to Ubisoft at least being significant.

AMD isn't a massive portion of the market unless you consider consoles too (which don't use gameworks).

Most Devs but more importantly publishers will always try and cut costs, if that means getting Nvidia (or AMD for that matter) to provide code/manpower/finance/marketing they will almost always jump on it.

I don't like either GE or GW but if one has to go then so should the other. People say they want competition but mostly they just want the advantage another side has removed but not their own. Both have pros and cons but just having cons is enough for me to no like either one. It doesn't stop me buying a game but it does at times delay my purchase until it's cheaper or bugs have been (mostly) ironed out.

AMD does have at times a lackadaisical approach to Devs which is why I used that option. None of the others really fits my opinion.

 

[FatherMurphy]

And I don't care so much about the "moral" part of the analogy, either. If AMD's excuse for its poor competitive position is it's "moral superiority" to NV, then AMD will remain uncompetitive. These are business entities formed and operating for one purpose: profit.

Also, only an idealist would suggest that AMD's GE program is formed the way it (its open-sourced, "morally superior" construction) by choice. If AMD could afford to develop a GW analogue and afford to pay game developers to adopt it, then it would. This isn't about morals. It is about money.

 

[Alatar]

Speaking of pCARS, after the previous thread was locked I did some testing on my secondary card.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1554407/various-project-cars-pc-benchmarks/90#post_23886414

AMD perf jumps crazy amounts after you raise power limits from stock. With stock power limits in pCARS the cards hit the limit and downclock like crazy all the way down to 500mhz. (at least my 7950 did)

So for some reason pCARS is pulling lots of power on AMD cards and causing throttling which honestly doesn't sound like a gameworks issue at all.

 

[Headfoot]

And I don't care so much about the "moral" part of the analogy, either. If AMD's excuse for its poor competitive position is it's "moral superiority" to NV, then AMD will remain uncompetitive. These are business entities formed and operating for one purpose: profit.

Also, only an idealist would suggest that AMD's GE program is formed the way it (its open-sourced, "morally superior" construction) by choice. If AMD could afford to develop a GW analogue and afford to pay game developers to adopt it, then it would. This isn't about morals. It is about money.

I must assume you're intentionally missing the point as I don't disagree with you nor have I before. My point is saying things like what you're saying now does not answer the question "Does NV GameWorks influence AMD card performance" per the title, even if what you say may be true.

Speaking of pCARS, after the previous thread was locked I did some testing on my secondary card.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1554407/various-project-cars-pc-benchmarks/90#post_23886414

AMD perf jumps crazy amounts after you raise power limits from stock. With stock power limits in pCARS the cards hit the limit and downclock like crazy all the way down to 500mhz. (at least my 7950 did)

So for some reason pCARS is pulling lots of power on AMD cards and causing throttling which honestly doesn't sound like a gameworks issue at all.

Very interesting findings... I wonder how many other games run into this? I'll try and test this in GTA V this weekend on my 290

 

[FatherMurphy]

Yeah, each other. Increasingly common, it's the customer getting punched as well, just because he chose the wrong brand. Punched by a third party no less, at the instigation of one of the actual competitors.

Like someone above said, we (the customers) keep buying video cards and video games (in record amounts) from vendors who undertake what some perceive to be "anti-consumer" tactics. They're (the vendors) are being rewarded for it because the market (of which the persons on this forum likely constitute a vocal fringe) continue to buy these products. It'll likely continue that way until someone (say, NV) takes it one step too far.

The best thing that could happen would be the emergence of a third competitor. #wishfulthinking

 

[cbrunny]

not really a problem at all dude... think about it in pure moral "good or bad" terms if that helps you. Punching someone in the face is both illegal and morally wrong. I dont care about the illegal part for purposes of this analogy. Though I'm sure you could make an argument that GW might be illegal, whether that argument would be right or not I don't know as I've got little experience in anti trust or business tort law.



In that case I'd say check out Russian Sensation's post a few back. It's difficult to differentiate rhetorical "questions" and real questions via the internets

ffs man, you should check it out. He was replying to my question - the very one that you started off on.

 

[FatherMurphy]

I must assume you're intentionally missing the point as I don't disagree with you nor have I before. My point is saying things like what you're saying now does not answer the question "Does NV GameWorks influence AMD card performance" per the title, even if what you say may be true

I didn't intentionally miss the point and apologize if I did so unintentionally. I agree that NV GW affects AMD card performance in certain ways in certain games. I don't think anyone can dispute that based on the data out there.

 

[Jaydip]

So basically, you are arguing that I should have a card from each at the ready for when games come out crippled on one side?

Man, PC gaming is getting so much more like console gaming it's not even laughable anymore.

Just start offering "exclusives" and finish the job.

Nope I am saying to get a console and I bet most here have it anyways.

 

[Headfoot]

ffs man, you should check it out. He was replying to my question - the very one that you started off on.

No I just referred you to a post I hadn't read myself. Caught me

I didn't intentionally miss the point and apologize if I did so unintentionally. I agree that NV GW affects AMD card performance in certain ways in certain games. I don't think anyone can dispute that based on the data out there.

Good deal man, we're on the same page. I bring it up because I've seen less well-intentioned posters derail from this post's title question on purpose in order to make sure the discussion doesn't reach a conclusion on that point (e.g. does GameWorks negatively affect AMD card perfomance).

I definitely agree with you that a third company would be a godsend in the desktop GPU market...

 

[Serandur]

Yes, fairly convinced it does.

 

[Eymar]

Yeah, each other. Increasingly common, it's the customer getting punched as well, just because he chose the wrong brand. Punched by a third party no less, at the instigation of one of the actual competitors.

This is the main issue I see with GameWorks if accusations of even one library coded with sole purpose of slowing down AMD instead of just optimizations for Nvidia is true (ie. if gameworks is replaced with say some generic library and Nvidia performs exactly the same as with GW, but AMD sees performance improvement). However, if GW just provides optimizations for Nvidia then I don't see anything wrong with that. Even if the closed nature of GW doesn't allow AMD to optimize around the library, then it's AMD's responsibility to provide an alternate code path/library.

 

[Kenmitch]

Hell yes it hurts AMD's performance at release of GW games....Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out.

Casual gamer here with a 970. Never buy a game at launch or for full pop. Guess it's why I don't condone or deny GW's anterior motive.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Yes it makes a difference, but nobody can deny the fact that AMD could be doing more on their end to work with developers and optimize their drivers in a timely manner for new titles. There have been times where Nvidia performance was poor for quite a while until they could get a new driver out there that fixed it up a bit.

 

[chimaxi83]

Yes it makes a difference, but nobody can deny the fact that AMD could be doing more on their end to work with developers and optimize their drivers in a timely manner for new titles. There have been times where Nvidia performance was poor for quite a while until they could get a new driver out there that fixed it up a bit.

This is true, but it doesn't address the fact that AMD doesn't have access to GW code, therefore they cannot optimize, and it doesn't address the fact that the game issues are end up being fixed by a dev patch.