yes, it does. atheism is the lack of a god, which really doesn't have anything to do with good or evil. good or evil are societal constructs. sometimes society makes a religion that incorporates the notion of good and evil... but the notions of good and evil clearly existed before that. if it was proved (though it really can't be) that god did not exist, i bet there are still a good number of people that would have a concept of good and evil.
You totally left me in the dark on that one. You're saying that if god exists, there must be a good and evil. I'm asking why is a supreme being necessary for a person to be able to make the distinction between good and evil? That is not a god related judgement, but a learned one based on societal influence.
IF a superembeing exists
THEN good and evil exist
people existing, sacrficing goats, debating the existance of god, distinguishign between good and evil have not bearing on the matter
Preciecly my ppoint.
Good and evil do not exist or cease to exist because of what I say or do, nor what anyone says or does, unless they happen to be the Supreme Being. Otherwise, might makes right. The 800 pound gorilla in essence, become the moral arbiter.
i don't think that was red dawn's point...
why is it that good and evil must be defined by the supreme being? for all we know, there could be a universal good and evil that just exists.
This has turned into an arguement about God, because most people base thier idea of Good and Evil off of their religion - the very reason why the question was asked if an atheist could believe in good and evil.
I believe Good and Evil to be abosolte forces, as much as math or physics. Everyone (almost) has them built in, in some way. (the whole survival thing, helping the race out, etc) If we had no sense of it, we would have no drive to reproduce, survive, anything. Heck, why do people view death as being so bad? Because whoever died has stopped responding to anything, and passed out of view of our ability to sense them. We view this as "bad".
Personally, if I was an athiest, I would not believe in good or evil. I would believe in power (much like Voldemort from Harry Potter - anyone else read this and see the connection?) because power allows you to do what you want.
I believe Good and Evil to be abosolte forces, as much as math or physics. Everyone (almost) has them built in, in some way. (the whole survival thing, helping the race out, etc) If we had no sense of it, we would have no drive to reproduce, survive, anything. Heck, why do people view death as being so bad? Because whoever died has stopped responding to anything, and passed out of view of our ability to sense them. We view this as "bad".
Personally, if I was an athiest, I would not believe in good or evil. I would believe in power (much like Voldemort from Harry Potter - anyone else read this and see the connection?) because power allows you to do what you want.
You see, they are not absolute forces unless a god exists.
If god does not exist, and Voldemort and the deatheaters have their way, well then they are the most powerful and by their own standard, are "good."
If god does not exist, and Voldemort and the deatheaters have their way, well then they are the most powerful and by their own standard, are "good."
because then it becomes defined by the most powerful and is merely law social custom or ettiquett
something not "good or evil" it is simply against custom or law or tradition
*Sighs* You people...
Glen's argument is based on the fact that he believes there are ultimate definitions of good and evil, if there are any at all. A universally acceptable and understandable definition for each of them with strict rules and guidelines that something must meet in order to garner its respective definition.
Now, all evidence we have points to the fact that this is a finite universe. Finite matter, finite energy, etc. Glen sees the definitions of Good and Evil as falling into a category of infinites. The only known thing ascribed with the ability to create an infinite is God. (I believe all mathamatical constructs relating to the infinite are abstract in nature anyway.)
Since athiests do not ascribe to the notion of God, and therefore notions of the infinite, they cannot subscribe to his definitions of Good and Evil.
Now, I may have got that totally wrong and be blowing pure smoke out my @$$, but I feel I got it right. If you disagree with what I've said, Glen, do tell me where I have erred and WHY.
-- Jack
Relgion: A system which explains the otherwise unexplainable, predicts the otherwise unpredictable, and prevents the otherwise unpreventable.
Glen's argument is based on the fact that he believes there are ultimate definitions of good and evil, if there are any at all. A universally acceptable and understandable definition for each of them with strict rules and guidelines that something must meet in order to garner its respective definition.
Now, all evidence we have points to the fact that this is a finite universe. Finite matter, finite energy, etc. Glen sees the definitions of Good and Evil as falling into a category of infinites. The only known thing ascribed with the ability to create an infinite is God. (I believe all mathamatical constructs relating to the infinite are abstract in nature anyway.)
Since athiests do not ascribe to the notion of God, and therefore notions of the infinite, they cannot subscribe to his definitions of Good and Evil.
Now, I may have got that totally wrong and be blowing pure smoke out my @$$, but I feel I got it right. If you disagree with what I've said, Glen, do tell me where I have erred and WHY.
-- Jack
Relgion: A system which explains the otherwise unexplainable, predicts the otherwise unpredictable, and prevents the otherwise unpreventable.
Alright. After thinking some more about this. I'll answer a question with a question.
If good and evil only exist if God exists and you can't prove that God exists, how can good and evil exist right now?
If good and evil only exist if God exists and you can't prove that God exists, how can good and evil exist right now?
no, i never said that humans had to be aware of it... it could just exist, as part of the workings of the universe. we don't necessarily have to be aware of it, or even affected by it.
UglyCasanova
Lifer
- Mar 25, 2001
- 19,275
- 1,361
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i don't know the answer to that question, i was just throwing it out there as a possibility. it could be somewhat analogous to polarity
And I always perferd the view that Science is the attempt by Man to put himself on equal footing with God. After all, the whole purpose to science is to understand the universe. And since God (assuming He exists) created all this and the universe, once we understand it, we will be on equal footing.
-- Jack
As I noted, yes. Until then, it's certainly a good goal to work towards. Wouldn't it just be worth it to have a descendant who hammers the final nail into the coffin of religion?
-- Jack
whoops, sorry about that, didn't see it!
personally, i think it's worth it just to get it so i can live forever
Glen said-
"The point - without a god they are abstract ideas, and do not exist.
I never said weather I believed in a god or not, and it does not change anything.
if a god exists; "good and evil" exist.
if a god does not exist; they don't."
Why do you think abstract ideas cannot exist without belief in God ?
For that matter, what does the non-belief in God of an athiest have to do with the real existence of God ? Or vice-versa ?
As far as "purpose", it comes from the same place that all other abstract concepts, like good and evil, inside each human being's head. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, in fact it is possibly closer to being true than the incorrect perceptions that most people have of the physical universe.
"The point - without a god they are abstract ideas, and do not exist.
I never said weather I believed in a god or not, and it does not change anything.
if a god exists; "good and evil" exist.
if a god does not exist; they don't."
Why do you think abstract ideas cannot exist without belief in God ?
For that matter, what does the non-belief in God of an athiest have to do with the real existence of God ? Or vice-versa ?
As far as "purpose", it comes from the same place that all other abstract concepts, like good and evil, inside each human being's head. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, in fact it is possibly closer to being true than the incorrect perceptions that most people have of the physical universe.
Cerb
Elite Member
- Aug 26, 2000
- 17,484
- 33
- 86
If good and evil only exist with a God, then, either:Originally posted by: glen
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Believe it or not, I think we're getting somewhere and I'm thorougly enjoying this thread.
yes, but many people are getting side tracked or confused about which god we are talking about or the existance of a god at all.
the question you pose, has been ask and written about quiet a lot.
there is almost no debate on the issue.
For "good and evil" to exist and you must have a god.
Otherwise "good and evil" become societal customs or ettiquet.
That is esentially undeniable.
Which fork to use, when to call someone an "asshat," how many angels fit on the head of a pin, weather or not God comes down to earth in the form of a bull to have sex with women, are separate and very debatable topics.
a) God exists and set the rules down
b) Man made God so that he would always feel there was something higher than him to set these rules, even though Man did set them
c) There is no good and evil, just G vs. E, one of the best TV shows ever.
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