Does anyone still think the Iraq War was not a colossal mistake?

[Phokus]

Vietnam was certainly worth doing. Imagine had we done it right, fighting the war as did David Hackworth's 4th battalion/39th infantry regiment. (Or even as did the Marines, until McNamara & Westmorland decided the Marines should instead hunker down on bases in plain view and within range of North Vietnamese artillery.) By winning the war, South Vietnam could be experiencing the same prosperity as is South Korea. Assuming that North Vietnam kept the same non-hereditary party-based leadership that reunified Vietnam kept, that nation might well be unified today as a free and prosperous nation rather than as the repressed, enslaved nation ranking 167th poorest of 229 recognized countries. Look at South Korea, with per capita income ten times as high. Then look at Vietnamese people outside of Vietnam, who with good intelligence and work ethic generally succeed quite well, and look at the progress made with the Communist government's limited free-market reforms within the last decade or so.

Since Ho Chi Min united several groups whose common element was nationalism rather than Communism, it's entirely possible that had the United States built basic democratic structures in Vietnamese society, built a legitimate government from the ground up, demonstrated the benefits of democracy and freedom, and then got out of the way, Vietnam might well have peaceably reunited under a democratic, representative government. Instead, we totally blew the politics, allowed elections basically between bloodthirsty goons without first instilling any knowledge of representative democracy in the population, and then blew the war as well.

As to whether or not Vietnam (specifically American involvement) was worth it considering the price we paid and the results we obtained, I suspect that depends on your value of freedom versus communism. It was worth it to me to have tried to preserve freedom, or such limited freedom as South Vietnam enjoyed at the time, and bear in mind that with several friends who have subsequently committed suicide I place the true cost of the Vietnamese war higher than would a text book. Casualties don't end when combat ends. For the Vietnamese people, it almost certainly wasn't worth it. For Thailand, spared the scourge of communism and with roughly three times the per capita income of Vietnam (and four times that of Cambodia or Laos), our participation in Vietnam was certainly worth it. In the end, your opinion on whether or not Vietnam was "worth it" is going to depend almost totally on whether or not you think Communism is an evil form of servitude or, like some here, you think Communism is the berries and Capitalism is the evil form of servitude.

Oh i didn't know you were a nation building neo-con. You're what's wrong with this country.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Yes, a self serving speech from Bush himself, the guy who lied in the first place? And a speech given post Iraq invasion, really lends credence to your claims. (hint: By Nov 2003, we already realized that he lied about Saddam being involved with AQ, and we also realized there were no WMD that we were told about). Nice try though.

If Bush gives a speech saying the moon is made of cheese, I guess you will believe that as well?

Are you that fucking stupid that you can't even recall your own claims from one post to the next? YOU implied Bush only made speeches about WMDs. Here, let me fresh your clearly impaired memory:

"Again, you mean when Bush and Cheney made all of those speeches about 9/11 and WMD, that wasn't the reason? LOL."

I showed you that he made speeches containing justifications for invading Iraq that addressed more than just WMDs. So stop trying to rewrite history with your idiotic talking points.

You want a speech pre-invasion? Here:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/12/national/main521781.shtml

If we meet our responsibilities, if we overcome this danger, we can arrive at a very different future. The people of Iraq can shake off their captivity. They can one day join a democratic Afghanistan and a democratic Palestine, inspiring reforms throughout the Muslim world. These nations can show by their example that honest government, and respect for women, and the great Islamic tradition of learning can triumph in the Middle East and beyond. And we will show that the promise of the United Nations can be fulfilled in our time.

That was made in Sep of 2002, long before the war. I'm firmly convinced that you don't know anything more about the historical aspects of the Iraq invasion than you need to know to support your partisan beliefs. As such, you're really not worth dealing with any further. Go foist your lame, outdated talking points on someone who cares. I'm done with your ignorance on this matter.

 

[JSt0rm]

Oh i didn't know you were a nation building neo-con. You're what's wrong with this country.

Thats why republicans should never ever be allowed to have power again. All of you who sit on the fence and try and decide every 4 years who to vote for take note.

 

[between]

...

 

[Craig234]

Not to the insane or pathological Marxists*, dude. To the insane and pathological Marxists, Iraq invading Iran was a "border dispute." Only when Republicans are present to be blamed can bad things truly be said to have begun, and every bad thing that then takes place (or is currently taking place), from atomic proliferation all the way through to war (and wyverns if they ever turn out to be real and attack), is directly due to Americans in general and Republicans in particular.

*This also applies to most Democrat politicians. Thus John Kerry can claim to have been ordered into Cambodia by Nixon circa Christmas '68 and no one bats an eye.

Not to give this dishonest poster much attention, where's his proof Kerry said he was "ordered into Cambodia by Nixon circe Christmas '68"?

He posts that claim without any evidence, and 'no one bats an eye'.

From Wikipedia:

At the time, President Lyndon Johnson had denied overt military incursions across the Cambodian border, while covert MACV-SOG Special reconnaissance operations were active and ongoing. Richard Nixon was actually president-elect in December 1968, and he had not yet issued his own denial.

Kerry did not claim to have been sent on a covert mission to Cambodia on Christmas Eve, 1968. Rather, he believed at the time he had crossed the border while on a patrol near the border, during which the boats were ambushed and later came under friendly fire from South Vietnamese soldiers.[39][61]

No official documentation of any accidental or other incursion by either of Kerry's boats has been discovered. In addition, none of Kerry's crewmates have confirmed ever being sent to Cambodia. One of Kerry's crewmen, SBVT member Steven Gardner,[62] asserted that it was physically impossible to cross the Cambodian border, as it was blocked and patrolled by PBRs (a type of patrol boat);[63] however, Kerry's boat was evidently patrolling with PBRs during the mission in question.[64] Some crewmembers have, moreover, stated that they may at some point have entered Cambodia without knowing it. James Wasser, who was on PCF-44 on that December mission, while saying that he believed they were "very, very close" to Cambodia, did not recall actually crossing over; he also stated that it was very hard to tell their exact position in the border area. Kerry's own journal entry on this, written the night of the mission, does not specifically say they entered Cambodia. However, it does state that PCF-44 was somewhere "toward Cambodia" to provide cover for two smaller patrol boats, and in sarcasm, that he considered messaging Christmas greetings to his commanders "from the most inland Market Time unit" and that a court martial for the incident "would make sense"[64] In addition, George Elliott noted in Kerry's fitness report that he had been in an ambush during the 24 hour Christmas truce, which began on Christmas Eve.[65]

Michael Meehan, a spokesman for the Kerry campaign, responded to SBVT's charges with a statement that Kerry was referring to a period when Nixon had been president-elect and before he was inaugurated. Meehan went on to state that Kerry had been "deep in enemy waters" between Vietnam and Cambodia and that his boat came under fire at the Cambodian border. Meehan also said that Kerry did covertly cross over into Cambodia to drop off special operations forces on a later occasion, but that there was no paperwork for such missions and he could not supply dates.[66]

Based on examination of Kerry's journals and logbook, historian Douglas Brinkley placed the covert missions soon after Christmas. In an interview with the London Daily Telegraph, Brinkley stated that Kerry had gone into Cambodian waters three or four times in January and February 1969 on clandestine missions, dropping off U.S. Seals, Green Berets, and CIA operatives. Brinkley added:

“ He was a ferry master, a drop-off guy, but it was dangerous as hell. Kerry carries a hat he was given by one CIA operative. In a part of his journals which I didn't use he writes about discussions with CIA guys he was dropping off.[67][68] ”

In an interview with Tim Russert on "Meet the Press," Kerry corrected his 1979 statement about being "five miles across the border" on Christmas Eve, but reiterated that he was on a patrol at the border at that date and had been sent on a covert mission at a later date.[69]

In the book, O'Neill argued that a Swift boat commander would have been "seriously disciplined or court-martialed" for crossing the Cambodian border. Critics point out the inconsistency between this description and O'Neill's own claims documented in a conversation with President Nixon in 1971:

“ O'Neill: I was in Cambodia, sir. I worked along the border on the water.

Nixon : In a Swift boat?
O'Neill: Yes, sir.

 

[werepossum]

Not to give this dishonest poster much attention, where's his proof Kerry said he was "ordered into Cambodia by Nixon circe Christmas '68"?

He posts that claim without any evidence, and 'no one bats an eye'.

From Wikipedia:

Kerry made this claim many times, including in a letter to the Boston Herald in '79. His actual quote from the Herald letter:

On more than one occasion, I like Martin Sheen in "Apocalypse Now," took my patrol boat into Cambodia. In fact, I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodia border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas. The absurdity of almost being killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real.

His actual quote from the Congressional Record:

"On more than one occasion, I, like Martin Sheen in "Apocalypse Now," took my patrol boat into Cambodia. In fact, I remember spending Christmas Eve, 1968, five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies, who were drunk and celebrating Christmas ... But nowhere in "Apocalypse Now" did I sense that kind of absurdity ... " (Senator John Kerry, Congressional Record, March 27, 1986).

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40056
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=4803
http://townhall.com/columnists/tonyblankley/2004/08/18/the_cambodian_candidate

His actual quote from another Senate speech (quoted here from wiki):

Cambodia mission

One chapter of SBVT's Unfit for Command questions Kerry's repeated statement that he was in Cambodia during Christmas, 1968.[39]

For example, on March 27, 1986, in arguing against United States aid to the Nicaraguan Contras, Kerry made a speech to the Senate that, among other things, touched on the Vietnam war:
“ Mr. President, how quickly do we forget? How quickly do we forget? No one wanted to widen the war in Vietnam, We heard that, Let me remind you of what we said during that period of time.

[Kerry then set forth more than a dozen statements of American leaders with respect to the Vietnam war. He concluded the summary with the following:]

Finally, President Nixon, 1970. "In cooperation with the armed forces of South Vietnam, attacks are being launched this week to clear out major enemy sanctuaries on the Cambodian-Vietnam border."

Mr. President, I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the President of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia.

I have that memory which is seared-seared-in me, that says to me, before we send another generation into harm's way we have a responsibility in the U.S. Senate to go the last step, to make the best effort possible in order to avoid that kind of conflict. Mr. President, good intentions are not enough to keep us out of harm's way.
”

According to the Boston Globe biography of Kerry, he later recalled that after the Christmas Eve incident, he "began to develop a deep mistrust of U.S. government pronouncements…."[61]

In a 1979 article in the Boston Herald, Kerry wrote of being shot at five miles over the Cambodian border on Christmas Eve 1968, stating,
“ The absurdity of almost being killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real. ”

At the time, President Lyndon Johnson had denied overt military incursions across the Cambodian border, while covert MACV-SOG Special reconnaissance operations were active and ongoing. Richard Nixon was actually president-elect in December 1968, and he had not yet issued his own denial.

Kerry did not claim to have been sent on a covert mission to Cambodia on Christmas Eve, 1968. Rather, he believed at the time he had crossed the border while on a patrol near the border, during which the boats were ambushed and later came under friendly fire from South Vietnamese soldiers.[39][61]

No official documentation of any accidental or other incursion by either of Kerry's boats has been discovered. In addition, none of Kerry's crewmates have confirmed ever being sent to Cambodia. One of Kerry's crewmen, SBVT member Steven Gardner,[62] asserted that it was physically impossible to cross the Cambodian border, as it was blocked and patrolled by PBRs (a type of patrol boat);[63] however, Kerry's boat was evidently patrolling with PBRs during the mission in question.[64] Some crewmembers have, moreover, stated that they may at some point have entered Cambodia without knowing it. James Wasser, who was on PCF-44 on that December mission, while saying that he believed they were "very, very close" to Cambodia, did not recall actually crossing over; he also stated that it was very hard to tell their exact position in the border area. Kerry's own journal entry on this, written the night of the mission, does not specifically say they entered Cambodia. However, it does state that PCF-44 was somewhere "toward Cambodia" to provide cover for two smaller patrol boats, and in sarcasm, that he considered messaging Christmas greetings to his commanders "from the most inland Market Time unit" and that a court martial for the incident "would make sense"[64] In addition, George Elliott noted in Kerry's fitness report that he had been in an ambush during the 24 hour Christmas truce, which began on Christmas Eve.[65]

Michael Meehan, a spokesman for the Kerry campaign, responded to SBVT's charges with a statement that Kerry was referring to a period when Nixon had been president-elect and before he was inaugurated. Meehan went on to state that Kerry had been "deep in enemy waters" between Vietnam and Cambodia and that his boat came under fire at the Cambodian border. Meehan also said that Kerry did covertly cross over into Cambodia to drop off special operations forces on a later occasion, but that there was no paperwork for such missions and he could not supply dates.[66]

Based on examination of Kerry's journals and logbook, historian Douglas Brinkley placed the covert missions soon after Christmas. In an interview with the London Daily Telegraph, Brinkley stated that Kerry had gone into Cambodian waters three or four times in January and February 1969 on clandestine missions, dropping off U.S. Seals, Green Berets, and CIA operatives. Brinkley added:
“ He was a ferry master, a drop-off guy, but it was dangerous as hell. Kerry carries a hat he was given by one CIA operative. In a part of his journals which I didn't use he writes about discussions with CIA guys he was dropping off.[67][68] ”

In an interview with Tim Russert on "Meet the Press," Kerry corrected his 1979 statement about being "five miles across the border" on Christmas Eve, but reiterated that he was on a patrol at the border at that date and had been sent on a covert mission at a later date.[69]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry_military_service_controversy

This story is also repeated in Douglass Brinkley's biography of Kerry. He also made the claim of having spent Christmas Eve '68 in speeches on the Senate floor and at least indirectly blamed this on Nixon, as Nixon is the only President mentioned in those speeches.

No one outside of Massachusetts really took the Poofy French Poodle seriously until his run for the Presidency, when his claims were first addressed. He then revised his story to say it was January '69 rather than Christmas, and later was forced to recant the story completely. Much like his story of heroically picking up the man who dropped off Kerry's own boat when everyone else fled had to be revised to only Kerry fleeing whilst everyone else defended the stricken PBR, only later coming back to pick up his man, this was a very widely circulated claim that you cannot possibly have honestly missed. Congrats, your honesty matches John Kerry's own.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

Are you that fucking stupid that you can't even recall your own claims from one post to the next? YOU implied Bush only made speeches about WMDs. Here, let me fresh your clearly impaired memory:

"Again, you mean when Bush and Cheney made all of those speeches about 9/11 and WMD, that wasn't the reason? LOL."

I showed you that he made speeches containing justifications for invading Iraq that addressed more than just WMDs. So stop trying to rewrite history with your idiotic talking points.

Again, yet another TLC delusional post without any supporting proof about "striking at Muslim fundamentalism"......shocking. Still can't find anything?

Reading comprehension FTL. I said he did, showing that was why we invaded. And you post showing a speech 6months after the invasion, when all the initial claims were found to be lies, shows nothing.

Bush made the claim that we needed to stop WMD's. He lied. We invaded, found out he lied, and he started trying to come up with other reasons as a retroactive justification, hence your post.

Again, Bush lied about all of this...why should I believe anything he says, since he is trying to make himself look less of an idiot and liar. It's like watching someone on trial for a crime, of course the defendant will say anything to make himself look innocent. Doesn't mean it's true. Lots of people say they didn't do anything wrong, and get convicted. Guess what? they lied. So does Bush.

Do you dispute Rummy's quote that we would NOT have invaded if we knew he didn't have WMD? Oops, there goes your argument again.

That was made in Sep of 2002, long before the war. I'm firmly convinced that you don't know anything more about the historical aspects of the Iraq invasion than you need to know to support your partisan beliefs. As such, you're really not worth dealing with any further. Go foist your lame, outdated talking points on someone who cares. I'm done with your ignorance on this matter.

I'm firmly convinced you still have not posted anything to defend your position about fighting Muslim fundamentalism. That isn't surprising, since I doubt anyone else believes it so you can't find anything on the internet to support your claim.

I posted several quotes from articles and other people (people other then the involved party, ie Bush) that totally refute your concepts.

Yet you are still incapable of presenting a defense for your thought. Again, I wonder why? You made the quote, I and others have shown that it is wrong.

TLC Delusion:

The Iraq invasion, at its core, was an attempt to strike back at militant Islamic fundamentalism.

Fact 1- Iraq was secular under Saddam. 404-Muslim fundamentalism not found. Strike 1

Fact 2- Iraq was used as a buffer to shield Saudi Arabia from Iran - Whoops, post-invasion, not true anymore. That actually HELPS fundamentalism. Strike two

Fact 3 - Iran has actually gained power in the region post-invasion. That HELPS fundamentalism. Strike three, you are out.

You got anything to dispute these three facts? I guess not. Trivial googling on these three points is painfully easy, I posted quotes in my other post supporting all of these claims. You have posted nothing. Typical.

 

[Craig234]

Werepossum nose-growth

You continue to lie. And your 'refutation' falls far short of what you claim.

Now, the swift boat liars have been been proven to lie on pretty much every claim that could be investigated.

You appear to say that Kerry 'completely retracted the story' that he had been in Cambodia to the corrected time frame of January instead of Christmas.

And yet, what does the link we each posted from Wikipedia say:

historian Douglas Brinkley placed the covert missions soon after Christmas. In an interview with the London Daily Telegraph, Brinkley stated that Kerry had gone into Cambodian waters three or four times in January and February 1969 on clandestine missions, dropping off U.S. Seals, Green Berets, and CIA operatives. Brinkley added:
“ He was a ferry master, a drop-off guy, but it was dangerous as hell.

So, tell me how that is 'completely retracting the story'? No, you are attacking someone who was a volunteer in the military smuggling CIA operatives which was "dangerous as hell".

You are looking for tiny details - oh, the dates might be a few weeks off - and inventing thngs like 'the whole story was retracted after the dates were corrected from Christmas to January' - and claiming they somehow are proof he isn't qualified as President. I'd say you are not qualified as a voter, unable to have honesty and any rational views on the issue.

You claimed Kerry said he was 'ordered by Nixon into Cambodia in Christmas 1968' - in fact, that was your entire attack in a post on Kerry's honesty - and yet you did not offer any evidence he ever said that. You were called on it - demanding evidence - and you ignored that and while posting various quotes where Kerry did not say that, just ignored the fact you attacked Kerry for a quote YOU made up for him.

You posted the link:

Kerry did not claim to have been sent on a covert mission to Cambodia on Christmas Eve, 1968. Rather, he believed at the time he had crossed the border while on a patrol near the border, during which the boats were ambushed and later came under friendly fire from South Vietnamese soldiers.

Kerry "did not claim" what you said he claimed.

You are not an honest poster.

Even the issue the Swift Boat Liars would not quit attacking Kerry on about 'releasing all his military records' claiming how they would show lies by him - Kerry gave newspapers full access just after the election and they reported that they said what he had been saying and that there was no new revelations. Swift Boat Liars lies again.

 

[werepossum]

You continue to lie. And your 'refutation' falls far short of what you claim.

SNIP

You claimed Kerry said he was 'ordered by Nixon into Cambodia in Christmas 1968' - in fact, that was your entire attack in a post on Kerry's honesty - and yet you did not offer any evidence he ever said that. You were called on it - demanding evidence - and you ignored that and while posting various quotes where Kerry did not say that, just ignored the fact you attacked Kerry for a quote YOU made up for him.

SNIP

LOL If I had the slightest respect for you I'd be pissed at your continuous accusations of lying. Luckily I remained unruffled.

From my last post:

On more than one occasion, I like Martin Sheen in "Apocalypse Now," took my patrol boat into Cambodia. In fact, I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodia border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas. The absurdity of almost being killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real.

I'll let those forumites who are not completely batshit crazy irrational decide for themselves what Kerry meant. Again, let us all recall that Kerry's diary placed him near Cambodia. I think we are all qualified to decide whether "near Cambodia" equals "inside Cambodia".

As far as the Swift Boaters, Kerry had to admit he did not spend Christmas Eve '68 in Cambodia AND that there was no evidence he had ever entered Cambodia AND that in any case Nixon was not President on Christmas Eve '68. Kerry also had to admit that although he had often told the story of how, when a PBR struck a mine all the boats fled except his and he picked up a man in the water, that was in fact totally untrue. In fact ONLY Kerry's boat fled (he said to give the other boats room to maneuver) and the man he picked up had in fact fallen from Kerry's boat, not the mine-stricken boat, when the mine detonated and Kerry suddenly accelerated his boat. Note that I do not fault Kerry's actions in either case; fleeing a narrow river area where two larger boats are violently maneuvering and where an ambush may follow (mines were often overwatched to ambush the stricken boat and its rescuers) is sound action. I DO fault Kerry's subsequent claims that everyone else fled and he did not.

And Kerry was NOT a volunteer; he was a draftee who tried and failed to get the same deferments that so many politicians with better connections received. I honor his service right up to the point that he began accusing every brother serviceman of being cowards and murderers.

 

[CallMeJoe]

...And Kerry was NOT a volunteer; he was a draftee who tried and failed to get the same deferments that so many politicians with better connections received. I honor his service right up to the point that he began accusing every brother serviceman of being cowards and murderers.

A draftee Naval officer? Who knew?

 

[werepossum]

A draftee Naval officer? Who knew?

Actually I'm wrong. Kerry received a low draft number, requested a deferment, was turned down, joined the Naval Reserves, was called to active duty, and actually requested duty on PBRs or PCFs.

On February 18, 1966, Kerry enlisted in the Naval Reserve.[29] He began his active duty military service on August 19, 1966. After completing sixteen weeks of Officer Candidate School at the U.S. Naval Training Center in Newport, Rhode Island, Kerry received his officer's commission on December 16, 1966. During the 2004 election, Kerry posted his military records at his website, and permitted reporters to inspect his medical records. In 2005, Kerry released his military and medical records to the representatives of three news organizations, but has not authorized full public access to those records.[30][31]

Kerry's first tour of duty was as an ensign on the guided missile frigate USS Gridley in 1968. The executive officer of the Gridley described the deployment as: "We deployed from San Diego to the Vietnam theatre in early 1968 after only a six-month turnaround, and spent most of a four month deployment on rescue station in the Gulf of Tonkin, standing by to pick up downed aviators."

During his tour on the Gridley, Kerry requested duty in Vietnam, listing as his first preference a position as the commander of a Fast Patrol Craft (PCF), also known as a "Swift boat."[32] These 50-foot (15 m) boats have aluminum hulls and have little or no armor, but are heavily armed and rely on speed. "I didn't really want to get involved in the war", Kerry said in a book of Vietnam reminiscences published in 1986. "When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling and that's what I thought I was going to be doing."[33] However, his second choice of billet was on a river patrol boat, or "PBR", which at the time was serving a more dangerous duty on the rivers of Vietnam.[32]

On June 16, 1968, Kerry was promoted to the rank of lieutenant, junior grade. On June 20, 1968, he left the Gridley for Swift boat training at the Naval Amphibious Base in Coronado.

My bad, I should have looked that up before I posted from an obviously faulty memory.

 

[CallMeJoe]

Actually I'm wrong. Kerry received a low draft number, requested a deferment, was turned down, joined the Naval Reserves, was called to active duty, and actually requested duty on PBRs or PCFs.
My bad, I should have looked that up before I posted from an obviously faulty memory.

You should also realize that Mr. Kerry could not have had a "low draft number" in 1966, since the draft lottery wasn't started until 1969 for inductions in 1970...

 

[werepossum]

You should also realize that Mr. Kerry could not have had a "low draft number" in 1966, since the draft lottery wasn't started until 1969 for inductions in 1970...

LOL You're owning me in this thread, aren't you?

Okay, a low classification, not a low number, being neither a father nor a husband. Kerry approached the draft board and requested a deferment to study abroad. It was not granted, so he decided to join the Naval reserves in an attempt to avoid the war and continue his studies.
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1970/2/18/john-kerry-a-navy-dove-runs/?print=1

When he approached his draft board for permission to study for a year in Paris, the draft board refused and Kerry decided to enlist in the Navy.

It was a common enough strategy, one that GWB also tried. Unfortunately for Kerry the worthless son of a Congressman has rather more chance of avoiding a war than does even the chair of the Yale Political Union. Kerry went to war, Bush went to bars.

This is interesting too.
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061503.shtml

When William Bundy, then assistant secretary of state for Far Eastern affairs, came to campus to speak in support of US involvement in the Vietnam War, he was greeted as a living legacy to the slain president. After his speech, he visited his nephew's suite and talked with the roommates, including Kerry, into the wee hours of the morning. ``[We were] all drinking beer and sitting around and talking about, you know, Southeast Asia and domino [theories] and war,'' Kerry recalled. Bundy's overriding theme to the young men was this: ``We need you. We need you to go into the officer program and to go to Vietnam.''

The visit nudged the students in the direction of Vietnam. ``I don't know that he was the prime mover in us going,'' added Barbiero, ``but he was certainly an influence. He was an assistant secretary of state.''

As graduation approached, Kerry knew that he had three choices: be drafted, seek a deferment for graduate school, or join up and position himself to become an officer. ``It was clear to me that I was going to be at risk,'' Kerry recalled. ``My draft board . . . said, `Look, the likelihood is you are probably going to be drafted.' I said, `If I'm going to be drafted, I'd like to have responsibility and be an officer.' ''

At the same time, Kerry was losing interest in academics and was ready for adventure. ``I cut classes,'' Kerry said. ``I didn't do much. I spent a lot of time learning to fly.''

Kerry also had political ambitions -- and was aware of how much military service had served John Kennedy's career. ``John would clearly say, `If I could make my dream come true, it would be running for president of the United States,' '' recalled William Stanberry, Kerry's debate team partner for three years. ``It was not a casual interest. It was a serious, stated interest. His lifetime ambition was to be in political office.''

 

[deustroop]

The war was costly and again the USA paid the price of freedom for others. Iraq war was won however> now a free country, dysfunctional, but free.

Not a mistake unless you are
squeamish, like so many posters here, and do not want war,they perhaps should think what the alternative is like>Chavez,Sarkozy,Clinton.
Be proud instead of such a miserable lot .You won .

Thousands died but you won--thats the price of world dominion--suprised so many are not up on the perspective. Better get used to it, Libya is next.

 

[HomerJS]

The war was costly and again the USA paid the price of freedom for others. Iraq war was won however> now a free country, dysfunctional, but free.

Not a mistake unless you are
squeamish, like so many posters here, and do not want war,they perhaps should think what the alternative is like>Chavez,Sarkozy,Clinton.
Be proud instead of such a miserable lot .You won .

Thousands died but you won--thats the price of world dominion--suprised so many are not up on the perspective. Better get used to it girls, Libya is next.

If the reason we went to war in Iraq was to free the people from an evil dictator, why not invade a country in Africa who has dictators responsible for killing far more people then Sadam?

 

[JSt0rm]

dumdumdum dumb dum