Does anyone know if Skylake will be Socket 1150?

[CakeMonster]

This presents a number of backwards compatibility issues, and means that only motherboards that support refreshed Haswell will be compatible with the 9-series Broadwell chips.

That sounds like a hint that we will get both HW and BW for LGA. However, since the release time frame is exactly the same, there are still unanswered questions. It seems strange that they will have two different architectures released at the same time. :hmm:

 

[ShintaiDK]

That sounds like a hint that we will get both HW and BW for LGA. However, since the release time frame is exactly the same, there are still unanswered questions. It seems strange that they will have two different architectures released at the same time. :hmm:

Its not strange. And the reason is Airmont and the constant lower desktop sales in favour of mobility.

In short, desktop chips are no longer first in line for the latest process node. You can get laptop, tablet/smartphone and server 14nm chips before you can get desktop 14nm (Skylake.).

 

[taisingera]

Skylake will most likely have fully integrated PCH. So obviously no.

If true, even more heat to dissipate from the cpu. As if the FIVR isn't bad enough on current Haswell. Even with the die shrink, I think there would be more heat.

 

[ShintaiDK]

If true, even more heat to dissipate from the cpu. As if the FIVR isn't bad enough on current Haswell. Even with the die shrink, I think there would be more heat.

Really? So the 30% or so in lower power consumption as demoed on IDF with Broadwell(14nm) vs Haswell(22nm). You think the 4.1W TDP the Z87 chipset use will increase the overall CPU heat generation? Not to mention said chipset, would then be shrinked from 32nm to 14nm. So we talk maybe 1W, vs all the benefits it involves. Including removing the 4 PCIe lanes that is also a total SATA bandwidth limitation.

 

[CakeMonster]

Its not strange. And the reason is Airmont and the constant lower desktop sales in favour of mobility.

In short, desktop chips are no longer first in line for the latest process node. You can get laptop, tablet/smartphone and server 14nm chips before you can get desktop 14nm (Skylake.).

Ah, so you're saying that HW refresh is what the desktop 1150 users get, but BW will only work with new chipsets (still 1150) that are only released for laptops (or something along those lines)? But sincc we know that Z97 will arrive for the desktop, shouldn't you be able to put a BW in it? Maybe BW will only be non-K mobile versions though...

Going out on a tangent there but it still seems strange to me.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Ah, so you're saying that HW refresh is what the desktop 1150 users get, but BW will only work with new chipsets (still 1150) that are only released for laptops (or something along those lines)? But sincc we know that Z97 will arrive for the desktop, shouldn't you be able to put a BW in it? Maybe BW will only be non-K mobile versions though...

Going out on a tangent there but it still seems strange to me.

Broadwell should work with all 9 series chipset boards(Desktop/laptop/server boards). However, there will only be Xeon and mobile Broadwell CPUs to plug in. So if you want Broadwell in your Z97 board, you need BIOS support and an E3 Broadwell Xeon.

 

[NTMBK]

If true, even more heat to dissipate from the cpu. As if the FIVR isn't bad enough on current Haswell. Even with the die shrink, I think there would be more heat.

Anything to get it into tablets. Broadwell ULX already has a super-small package to fit tablet motherboards:

The chipset is 4.1W TDP on 45nm. How much heat do you think it will generate on 14nm?

 

[ShintaiDK]

The chipset is 4.1W TDP on 45nm. How much heat do you think it will generate on 14nm?

32, not 45

 

[NTMBK]

32, not 45

Damn, Wikipedia lied to me I knew I should pay more attention to those Citation needed disclaimers.

 

[CakeMonster]

Broadwell should work with all 9 series chipset boards(Desktop/laptop/server boards). However, there will only be Xeon and mobile Broadwell CPUs to plug in. So if you want Broadwell in your Z97 board, you need BIOS support and an E3 Broadwell Xeon.

Thanks, seems like my guess wasn't that far off then. Do we know anything at all about what the HW refresh will bring? Since they're actually bothering releasing it, I guess they must have done something to try and convince us desktop users that we will want one.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Thanks, seems like my guess wasn't that far off then. Do we know anything at all about what the HW refresh will bring? Since they're actually bothering releasing it, I guess they must have done something to try and convince us desktop users that we will want one.

Good question. I can only imagine wierder TSX/AVX2 support and maybe a speedbin or 2 due to refined process, besides any IGP GT expansions. But if you own say a 4670/4770/4771 today. I would say it offers nothing.

 

[blackened23]

If Haswell refresh works on 9 series chipsets, which is what intel's documents indicate, that means Haswell refresh has an integrated clock generator. Again, it is absolutely not possible for Haswell refresh to work on existing Z87 boards if this is the case. This change requires a new motherboard, period.

You see in all of intel's documents that HW refresh works on series 9 chipsets correct? All series 9 chipsets implement integrated clock generation. If HW refresh works on series 9 chipsets, that means it DOES NOT work on Z87. This means that HW refresh has the integrated clock generator. That change makes it incompatible. This is what you're not understanding.

Here's the bottom line: Does HW refresh have an integrated clock generator?

If so, that means it will not work on Z87.
If not, that means it may work on Z87.

This is what intel's latest round of documents indicate. The latest documents also directly contradict older roadmaps. But I do know that change is a big one which makes future CPUs and present motherboards incompatible. The real question you should be asking is whether HW refresh has the integrated clock generator change - it all depends on this. Intel's documents certainly indicates that it does indeed have the change.

 

[ShintaiDK]

If Haswell refresh works on 9 series chipsets, which is what intel's documents indicate, that means Haswell refresh has an integrated clock generator. Again, it is absolutely not possible for Haswell refresh to work on existing Z87 boards if this is the case. This change requires a new motherboard, period.

You see in all of intel's documents that HW refresh works on series 9 chipsets correct? All series 9 chipsets implement integrated clock generation. If HW refresh works on series 9 chipsets, that means it DOES NOT work on Z87. This means that HW refresh has the integrated clock generator. That change makes it incompatible.

This is what intel's latest round of documents indicate. The latest documents also directly contradict older roadmaps. So I don't know. Unless the other thing they can do is make a different HW refresh for Z87. I don't know. I have idea WTH here, and intel is clarifying things. But I do know that change is a big one which makes future CPUs and motherboards incompatible.

You do know 8 series got the same 25Mhz clock generator? If you state something is new, it must be absent from the previous model.

From the 8 series documentation, see section 4:
http://www.intel.ie/content/dam/www...datasheets/8-series-chipset-pch-datasheet.pdf

 

[blackened23]

You do know 8 series got the same 25Mhz clock generator?

It's on the motherboard for Z87. HW refresh and Broadwell has it integrated on the CPU die which requires a new platform and new motherboard. This is aside from other changes to power rail requirements, seen here:

The combination of the clock generator and the above power requirements would indicate new motherboards and new platforms being required. Again, these documents were just released by intel last month.

So the real question, again, is whether HW refresh has the integrated clock generator. If so, that would make new platforms and new motherboards and pre-requisite to function.

 

[ShintaiDK]

It's on the motherboard for Z87. HW refresh and Broadwell has it integrated on the CPU die which requires a new platform and new motherboard.

No it doesnt. Your own diagram says the same. The 9 series PCH handles the clocks.

 

[taisingera]

Except those who need dual graphics cards, and if PCH gets incorporated into the CPU, the new standard for desktops (granted it is a shrinking market) should be mini-ITX. If it were not for the ports people need for devices, Intel might just attach some kind of power connector to the cpu, and just put motherboard makers out of business.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Except those who need dual graphics cards, and if PCH gets incorporated into the CPU, the new standard for desktops (granted it is a shrinking market) should be mini-ITX. If it were not for the ports people need for devices, Intel might just attach some kind of power connector to the cpu, and just put motherboard makers out of business.

Why would the new standard be MiniITX? The PCIe lanes for graphics is not handled by the PCH.

 

[seitur]

Except those who need dual graphics cards, and if PCH gets incorporated into the CPU, the new standard for desktops (granted it is a shrinking market) should be mini-ITX. If it were not for the ports people need for devices, Intel might just attach some kind of power connector to the cpu, and just put motherboard makers out of business.

Desktop route point for smaller forms. It is unavoidable and it is not only future = it is already happening.
Just notice how desktop market changed in last decade. First mATX boards emerged from niche and now are mainstream, offering almost as many models as full size ATX boards.
mITX in last 2-3 years are gaining momentum as well.

It all is accompanied by case makers and dropping prices.
ATX is going away. It will be just small niche left for some specific builds.

In future smaller nodes will allow dGPUs to be smaller too. Actually again it is already happening - there are already few powerful dGPUs made in smaller sizes. I think ASUS is making efforts in this field, with smaller custom dGPU boards and smaller cooling systems.

So even dGPU users will use mITX rather than ATX.

Motherboards & ports are not a problem - since even desktop CPUs will be SoC sooner or later - actual "motherboard" will be relatively small piece. Small thing with few ports and maybe 1-2 slots on some % of boards (in new standard sooner or later - much smaller physically than PCIe slots - they're getting too big).

Still all that won't happen overnight. It's slow evolution that will take many many years.
For now ATX, PCH, PCIe, etc are not going anywhere ;p