Does anyone here consider themselves pro-choice, but this article bothers them?

[manlymatt83]

Text

People who are proud to call themselves "abortionists" bother me. While I'm pro-choice, I still think abortion is a horrible thing, and I think people's attitudes should be that it should be a last resort.

I can understand someone who chooses abortion because she had an unplanned pregnancy. I can't understand someone who uses abortion as a means of birth control.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
Text

People who are proud to call themselves "abortionists" bother me. While I'm pro-choice, I still think abortion is a horrible thing, and I think people's attitudes should be that it should be a last resort.

I can understand someone who chooses abortion because she had an unplanned pregnancy. I can't understand someone who uses abortion as a means of birth control.

He's "takes pride" in being called an abortionist because it's the primary service he performs and pro-lifers have tried to demonize the term for a medical procedure they find objectionable. People don't celebrate having an abortion.

 

[manlymatt83]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
Text

People who are proud to call themselves "abortionists" bother me. While I'm pro-choice, I still think abortion is a horrible thing, and I think people's attitudes should be that it should be a last resort.

I can understand someone who chooses abortion because she had an unplanned pregnancy. I can't understand someone who uses abortion as a means of birth control.

He's "takes pride" in being called an abortionist because it's the primary service he performs and pro-lifers have tried to demonize the term for a medical procedure they find objectionable. People don't celebrate having an abortion.

I disagree... I've seen it. But that's a different ball game.

 

[Thump553]

The the OP: I suggest you read this article about Carhart, which was in the latest issue of Newsweek. It does a lot better job of explaining his mindset and why he is doing what is doing.

 

[MotF Bane]

Both sides sound fairly reasonable. The doctor has no need to be ashamed of what he has done; the protest leader is promising peaceful protests (I like his line about shooting someone not being pro-life); no signs of violence outside the clinic... it's going well.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
Text

People who are proud to call themselves "abortionists" bother me. While I'm pro-choice, I still think abortion is a horrible thing, and I think people's attitudes should be that it should be a last resort.

I can understand someone who chooses abortion because she had an unplanned pregnancy. I can't understand someone who uses abortion as a means of birth control.

When the right begins referring to aborted 4-week-old fetuses as "aborted 4-week-old fetuses" and not "murdered babies," maybe we can all agree on terminology. Until then, I couldn't care less what the anti-abortion right thinks about this or any other abortion-related topic. They're all loonies, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[InflatableBuddha]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
Text

People who are proud to call themselves "abortionists" bother me. While I'm pro-choice, I still think abortion is a horrible thing, and I think people's attitudes should be that it should be a last resort.

I can understand someone who chooses abortion because she had an unplanned pregnancy. I can't understand someone who uses abortion as a means of birth control.

He's "takes pride" in being called an abortionist because it's the primary service he performs and pro-lifers have tried to demonize the term for a medical procedure they find objectionable. People don't celebrate having an abortion.

I agree. As soon as you demonize a term in favour of a euphemism, you begin to demonize the associated action. While I also consider abortion to be a last resort procedure, I fully support it as an option for women to choose.

It's not a celebration, it's a serious, life-changing procedure. Many women feel that their lives will be better off by not carrying an unwanted pregnancy to term, so they choose an abortion. So this abortionist is making a positive difference in the lives of the women who choose his services, and that is laudable.

If the procedure is referred to differently, it doesn't change the procedure, it just changes people's impression of it, which I don't like. We shouldn't be "softening" it as it's not something to take lightly. The term is correct and it should stand.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
Text

People who are proud to call themselves "abortionists" bother me. While I'm pro-choice, I still think abortion is a horrible thing, and I think people's attitudes should be that it should be a last resort.

I can understand someone who chooses abortion because she had an unplanned pregnancy. I can't understand someone who uses abortion as a means of birth control.

When the right begins referring to aborted 4-week-old fetuses as "aborted 4-week-old fetuses" and not "murdered babies," maybe we can all agree on terminology. Until then, I couldn't care less what the anti-abortion right thinks about this or any other abortion-related topic. They're all loonies, as far as I'm concerned.

When the left begins referring to aborted 4-week-old fetuses as "murdered babies" and not "aborted 4-week-old fetuses" maybe we can all agree on terminology.

 

[xj0hnx]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
Text

People who are proud to call themselves "abortionists" bother me. While I'm pro-choice, I still think abortion is a horrible thing, and I think people's attitudes should be that it should be a last resort.

I can understand someone who chooses abortion because she had an unplanned pregnancy. I can't understand someone who uses abortion as a means of birth control.

When the right begins referring to aborted 4-week-old fetuses as "aborted 4-week-old fetuses" and not "murdered babies," maybe we can all agree on terminology. Until then, I couldn't care less what the anti-abortion right thinks about this or any other abortion-related topic. They're all loonies, as far as I'm concerned.

When the left begins referring to aborted 4-week-old fetuses as "murdered babies" and not "aborted 4-week-old fetuses" maybe we can all agree on terminology.

I approve of this message.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: manlymatt83

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
Text

People who are proud to call themselves "abortionists" bother me. While I'm pro-choice, I still think abortion is a horrible thing, and I think people's attitudes should be that it should be a last resort.

I can understand someone who chooses abortion because she had an unplanned pregnancy. I can't understand someone who uses abortion as a means of birth control.

He's "takes pride" in being called an abortionist because it's the primary service he performs and pro-lifers have tried to demonize the term for a medical procedure they find objectionable. People don't celebrate having an abortion.

I disagree... I've seen it. But that's a different ball game.

And I've seen a dog say "mama", that doesn't mean it's not a freak occurance. Women do not happily traipse off to the abortion clinic for the fun of it. That's another pro-life delusion.

No, this article doesn't bother me. What bothers me is that due to death theats and psychos there's only a handful of doctors in the entire country who are willing and able to help a woman resolve a late term abnormality in her pregnancy.

Maybe you'll find more context here: http://www.esquire.com/feature...ern-0909?click=main_sr

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
Text

People who are proud to call themselves "abortionists" bother me. While I'm pro-choice, I still think abortion is a horrible thing, and I think people's attitudes should be that it should be a last resort.

I can understand someone who chooses abortion because she had an unplanned pregnancy. I can't understand someone who uses abortion as a means of birth control.

When the right begins referring to aborted 4-week-old fetuses as "aborted 4-week-old fetuses" and not "murdered babies," maybe we can all agree on terminology. Until then, I couldn't care less what the anti-abortion right thinks about this or any other abortion-related topic. They're all loonies, as far as I'm concerned.

When the left begins referring to aborted 4-week-old fetuses as "murdered babies" and not "aborted 4-week-old fetuses" maybe we can all agree on terminology.

the only probably is that a fetus is not a baby, so your argument, as always, is mute.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
Text

People who are proud to call themselves "abortionists" bother me. While I'm pro-choice, I still think abortion is a horrible thing, and I think people's attitudes should be that it should be a last resort.

I can understand someone who chooses abortion because she had an unplanned pregnancy. I can't understand someone who uses abortion as a means of birth control.

When the right begins referring to aborted 4-week-old fetuses as "aborted 4-week-old fetuses" and not "murdered babies," maybe we can all agree on terminology. Until then, I couldn't care less what the anti-abortion right thinks about this or any other abortion-related topic. They're all loonies, as far as I'm concerned.

When the left begins referring to aborted 4-week-old fetuses as "murdered babies" and not "aborted 4-week-old fetuses" maybe we can all agree on terminology.

the only probably is that a fetus is not a baby, so your argument, as always, is mute.

Early to be drinking, Michael.

 

[Moonbeam]

As soon as you say God knows everything that will ever be, you destroy the concept of choice. I can't choose if somebody already knows what it will be.

When you say that life begins at conception you create a paradox. Life at conception eliminates a woman't choice regarding her body.

So if you are religious, it seems to me, you have to say that God aborts babies by knowing who will chose that, and that personal freedom does not exist. Of course the universe may not give a fig about being consistent but in most cases it seems like it wants to give that impression.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
Text

People who are proud to call themselves "abortionists" bother me. While I'm pro-choice, I still think abortion is a horrible thing, and I think people's attitudes should be that it should be a last resort.

I can understand someone who chooses abortion because she had an unplanned pregnancy. I can't understand someone who uses abortion as a means of birth control.

What's the difference between having an abortion in the event of an unplanned pregnancy and using it as a means of birth control? Aren't those really the same thing? I would imagine that a small handful of people who purposely choose not to use contraception and to use abortion instead exist, but we might be able to count them on one hand.

Carhart is unlike many abortion doctors. He's doesn't parse his words about his profession. The outside of his office has the name of his clinic in bold letters: Abortion & Contraception Clinic of Nebraska. He said he takes pride in the term abortionist.

"I do abortions, and that is what I do," he said.

He's asking for it by maintaining a high profile with that big sign over his clinic, but I respect his courage and convictions. He's fighting for our freedom and against religious barbarians.

What do you find so horrible about abortion? It's not murder--there isn't a human consciousness inside of the fetus to kill--there's no person in there. You should feel worse or just as bad about eating meat.

As far as people celebrating having an abortion goes, I can definitely see the men facing unwanted fatherhood celebrating their good fortune and I can envision some women celebrating their having made a rational decision.

 

[StageLeft]

He's fighting for our freedom and against religious barbarians.

You really ought to go a little easy on people who find some offense at extracting an unwanted baby out through a tube and squirting it into a biowaste container. Or you can continue to demonize, if it makes it easier to swallow.

What do you find so horrible about abortion? It's not murder--there isn't a human consciousness inside of the fetus to kill--there's no person in there. You should feel worse or just as bad about eating meat.

Somebody under a heavy medication doesn't exhibit much consciousness, either.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
As soon as you say God knows everything that will ever be, you destroy the concept of choice. I can't choose if somebody already knows what it will be.

When you say that life begins at conception you create a paradox. Life at conception eliminates a woman't choice regarding her body.

So if you are religious, it seems to me, you have to say that God aborts babies by knowing who will chose that, and that personal freedom does not exist. Of course the universe may not give a fig about being consistent but in most cases it seems like it wants to give that impression.

I wish we had better words to define what we mean. To say "Life begins at conception" to me means the same thing as a virus is life too... A virus in a person lives... I would rather say that "the potential for independent life exists at conception" That "viability of that potential exists at some point and potential is no longer an operative description when viability exists.. it is independent..."
I think a woman has the right to terminate the virus and the potential independent life forms. The virus has no human potential ergo no potential to fundamental rights to exist... the Fetus does and therefore viability is the key. However, I would say the likely hood of viability increases every day... from day one... where along that line is the cut off...
Ideally before day one... but after day one... for me personally never.. for you I'd support a point a month or so down that line... arbitrary but acceptable to me.

 

[MotF Bane]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
Text

People who are proud to call themselves "abortionists" bother me. While I'm pro-choice, I still think abortion is a horrible thing, and I think people's attitudes should be that it should be a last resort.

I can understand someone who chooses abortion because she had an unplanned pregnancy. I can't understand someone who uses abortion as a means of birth control.

When the right begins referring to aborted 4-week-old fetuses as "aborted 4-week-old fetuses" and not "murdered babies," maybe we can all agree on terminology. Until then, I couldn't care less what the anti-abortion right thinks about this or any other abortion-related topic. They're all loonies, as far as I'm concerned.

When the left begins referring to aborted 4-week-old fetuses as "murdered babies" and not "aborted 4-week-old fetuses" maybe we can all agree on terminology.

the only probably is that a fetus is not a baby, so your argument, as always, is mute.

Excellent, bickering about semantics because you don't want to have an intelligent discussion, and with poor word choice as a bonus.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: MotF Bane


the only probably is that a fetus is not a baby, so your argument, as always, is mute.

Excellent, bickering about semantics because you don't want to have an intelligent discussion, and with poor word choice as a bonus.

Making clear the distinctions between a zygote, embryo, fetus and baby are in fact crucial to understanding the reasons why abortion is legal and will remain so.

 

[manlymatt83]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
Text

People who are proud to call themselves "abortionists" bother me. While I'm pro-choice, I still think abortion is a horrible thing, and I think people's attitudes should be that it should be a last resort.

I can understand someone who chooses abortion because she had an unplanned pregnancy. I can't understand someone who uses abortion as a means of birth control.

When the right begins referring to aborted 4-week-old fetuses as "aborted 4-week-old fetuses" and not "murdered babies," maybe we can all agree on terminology. Until then, I couldn't care less what the anti-abortion right thinks about this or any other abortion-related topic. They're all loonies, as far as I'm concerned.

When the left begins referring to aborted 4-week-old fetuses as "murdered babies" and not "aborted 4-week-old fetuses" maybe we can all agree on terminology.

nice

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

He's fighting for our freedom and against religious barbarians.

You really ought to go a little easy on people who find some offense at extracting an unwanted baby out through a tube and squirting it into a biowaste container. Or you can continue to demonize, if it makes it easier to swallow.

The people he's fighting against aren't the quiet unassuming people who oppose abortion peacefully and from the privacy of their own homes. Rather, he's fighting against people issuing death threats and protesting outside of his clinic. Those people deserve to be identified for who they are. They want to transform the nation into a Christian theocracy, like a Christian Iran called Jesusland.

Somebody under a heavy medication doesn't exhibit much consciousness, either.

They have a consciousness and a human personality; they're just sleeping. In contrast, a fetus doesn't have and never had a personality or a human consciousness.

I can understand people disagreeing with abortion for religious reasons, but what I don't like is when they try to use secular justifications for their position, twisting themselves into pretzels to keep from saying, "I oppose it because it goes against my religious faith." Over the years, I must have debated this dozens of times and it always comes down to faith in the existence of a God that breathes a soul into an embryo at conception. I never expect to be able to change people's views on the subject, but I do want them to admit and acknowledge that their position is based on religious faith.

 

[manlymatt83]

What do you find so horrible about abortion? It's not murder--there isn't a human consciousness inside of the fetus to kill--there's no person in there. You should feel worse or just as bad about eating meat.

I disagree. To me, they are humans. But again, I'm pro-choice. And I'm not religious.

As far as people celebrating having an abortion goes, I can definitely see the men facing unwanted fatherhood celebrating their good fortune and I can envision some women celebrating their having made a rational decision.

What about the men who want the fatherhood?

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: manlymatt83

What do you find so horrible about abortion? It's not murder--there isn't a human consciousness inside of the fetus to kill--there's no person in there. You should feel worse or just as bad about eating meat.

I disagree. To me, they are humans. But again, I'm pro-choice. And I'm not religious.

then how do you logically/morally reconcile your position? If you believe a fetus is a human then what you are in favor of is the "choice" to murder a human. I don't believe a group of cells constitutes a human, so I have no problem with scrapping it.

 

[StageLeft]

They have a consciousness and a human personality; they're just sleeping. In contrast, a fetus doesn't have and never had a personality or a human consciousness.

But right now they have nothing. You're saying they WILL when they wake up. Like a baby will when it's born

I can understand people disagreeing with abortion for religious reasons, but what I don't like is when they try to use secular justifications for their position, twisting themselves into pretzels to keep from saying, "I oppose it because it goes against my religious faith." Over the years, I must have debated this dozens of times and it always comes down to faith in the existence of a God that breathes a soul into an embryo at conception. I never expect to be able to change people's views on the subject, but I do want them to admit and acknowledge that their position is based on religious faith.

Despite probably being able to come up with some exceptions, I'm sure you're right for the most part.

 

[manlymatt83]

Originally posted by: jonks

Originally posted by: manlymatt83

What do you find so horrible about abortion? It's not murder--there isn't a human consciousness inside of the fetus to kill--there's no person in there. You should feel worse or just as bad about eating meat.

I disagree. To me, they are humans. But again, I'm pro-choice. And I'm not religious.

then how do you logically/morally reconcile your position? If you believe a fetus is a human then what you are in favor of is the "choice" to murder a human. I don't believe a group of cells constitutes a human, so I have no problem with scrapping it.

I am pro-choice because I fundamentally don't believe that I have the right to tell another person what to do with their body. I'm liberal in that sense. So yes, I do sort of believe that abortion = ending the life of a baby, but I still don't blame women for sometimes having to make that choice about their body. I do get upset when the choice is made selfishly though.

 

[surfsatwerk]

Originally posted by: manlymatt83
Text

People who are proud to call themselves "abortionists" bother me. While I'm pro-choice, I still think abortion is a horrible thing, and I think people's attitudes should be that it should be a last resort.

I can understand someone who chooses abortion because she had an unplanned pregnancy. I can't understand someone who uses abortion as a means of birth control.

I grew up in Bellevue and met the guy once or twice, to say he's passionate about what he does is an understatement.