Does anyone else feel humble for this reason?

[Brigandier]

Originally posted by: Vic

It is this humility, in fact, that prevents me from being atheist, despite the pressure, even the personal desire, to do so. Regardless of how this came about, I am literally in endless/boundless awe... and gratitude. Yet so perfect, no God required, who to be grateful to? It's why I refuse to be negative, despite everything. Ah. the beauty of creation...

It's all probability, in an infinite universe any thing that is remotely probable happens. In an infinite number of occurences anything can happen. Evolution, d-evolution, language,a rt, anything that is probable has happened. Thankfulyl quantum mechanics affords the loop-hole of improbable occurences.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Atreus21
I recently had a history class project where I had to look over microfilm of my local newspaper, The Times-Picayune, and find articles pertaining to certain events. I looked back as far as the 1890s and progressively got later and later as I approached the present.

I realized that people then had just as much concerns as we do, about just as seemingly important and immediate issues. People were scared during World War II that Japan would nuke the west coast after Hiroshima. In fact, the Japanese even issued a statement saying that they'd developed nuclear techonology decades before we did.

My point is, I look at these issues, and I realize how arrogant I am. I, and probably most of my peers, think that I am at the forefront of a culture war, or the forefront of forces for change, or really the forefront for anything, and that my actions will affect very much the course of future events.

Odds are, after I die, things will go on as they have for the last hundred years, and my imprint will last only in my children, and even that will be fleeting.

This is more of a philosophical question than a political one, and I know it's kind of obscure. But I wanted to see if anyone else identified with it.

The concerns of the people are a reflection of human nature. And since human nature - both our great strengths and our great weaknesses - hasn't changed in at least 100,000 years, it's not surprising that although the details of the headlines may change, the fundamental problems we face remain the same.

We may look and smell a little better, but we are still hunter-gatherers and cave people.

 

[apoppin]

We may look and smell a little better ..

probably not .. if they were vegetarian, they would smell better
.. and their sense of smell would also be better

We are degenerating as a society even if we are evolving in spurts as individuals. Regional disasters along with personal and family problems have plagued mankind for a long time

HOWEVER, at NO point in Human History - except perhaps with a single first family group of humans - have we *ever* been seriously in danger of complete species self-annihilation
.. never before WWII which started really with and was just a "continuation" of WWI

As a generation since WW2, for the first time and for all of Us, we face the threat of extinction as a species and as caretakers of our Biosphere .. this is new and very stressful that ALL of our great grandparents did not commonly experience.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: sandorski
All Civilizations end because the People making up those Civilizations become overwhelmed by and/or just quit maintaining the Infrastructures(both physical and non-physical)that hold them together.

Did you just endorse the melting pot, or should we continue to embolden divisiveness with diversity?

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Despite all the so called problems and threat of nuclear annihilation we still have a life expectancy far greater than that of our forefathers. We have more money, more food, more entertainment, more power and are generally better off. Perhaps it's time for the rich world to help Africa so even they are elevated out of a state of total hopelessness.

America might not have changed a great deal in 100 years but the rest of the world has come forward by leaps and bounds. 100 years ago we lived as slaves to the British and even fought two world wars in their names. Now things are different. We have our own identity. And that's what has been unsettling the west.

ummm No. Lots of countries have their own identity and we could care less.

What is unsettling to the west is the number of Muslims who believe that it is their duty to spread Islam to the world by any means necessary. The fact that Pakistan is the home to many of these people is a problem

Look at India who gained their freedom at the same time as Pakistan and whose people look very similar to Pakistanis and notice how no one worries about India spreading terrorism to the world etc etc.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: apoppin
As a generation since WW2, for the first time and for all of Us, we face the threat of extinction as a species and as caretakers of our Biosphere .. this is new and very stressful that ALL of our great grandparents did not commonly experience.

ummm I think you are being a little dramatic there.

I don't think we face anything like the 'extinction' of our species.

Even if global warming turned out FAR worse than anyone predicts it would not lead to extinction, only a more difficult way of life and perhaps the deaths of thousands or even millions of people. But would the results be worse than the black plaque that may have killed 75 million people? Would 30 to 60% of Europe's population face death because of global warming?

Do the math:
Black plague resulted in as much as 16% of the planets population dying.
6.8 billion x 16% = 1.1 billion deaths. Do you really think that many people are going to die because of global warming?

Also... the idea of a nuclear holocaust is virtually zero so I don't think we wipe ourselves out that way either. And even if the US, Russia and China went all out against each other I am pretty sure the human race would survive.


And you libs accuse us Republicans of fear mongering :roll:

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: apoppin
As a generation since WW2, for the first time and for all of Us, we face the threat of extinction as a species and as caretakers of our Biosphere .. this is new and very stressful that ALL of our great grandparents did not commonly experience.

ummm I think you are being a little dramatic there.

I don't think we face anything like the 'extinction' of our species.

Even if global warming turned out FAR worse than anyone predicts it would not lead to extinction, only a more difficult way of life and perhaps the deaths of thousands or even millions of people. But would the results be worse than the black plaque that may have killed 75 million people? Would 30 to 60% of Europe's population face death because of global warming?

Do the math:
Black plague resulted in as much as 16% of the planets population dying.
6.8 billion x 16% = 1.1 billion deaths. Do you really think that many people are going to die because of global warming?

Also... the idea of a nuclear holocaust is virtually zero so I don't think we wipe ourselves out that way either. And even if the US, Russia and China went all out against each other I am pretty sure the human race would survive.


And you libs accuse us Republicans of fear mongering :roll:

and WHAT is *wrong* with a little Drama?
-i'd have the music playing in the background if i could


i am glad you feel that we do not face extinction from any Nuclear, biological, plague, insane religions, starvation or even external forces .. you may even believe that Humans are unique as an intelligent species in the Universe

i can only accuse you of burying your head in the sand

i did not say no one would survive .. humans would just lose our position as dominant species and as custodians of this biosphere .. we could take our old place back alongside the other primates in small groups scattered about the planet's ruined surface.

Actually that is NOT my vision .. but it is where Society is heading

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: sandorski
All Civilizations end because the People making up those Civilizations become overwhelmed by and/or just quit maintaining the Infrastructures(both physical and non-physical)that hold them together.

Did you just endorse the melting pot, or should we continue to embolden divisiveness with diversity?

No, you're way reading between the lines there.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: sandorski
All Civilizations end because the People making up those Civilizations become overwhelmed by and/or just quit maintaining the Infrastructures(both physical and non-physical)that hold them together.

Did you just endorse the melting pot, or should we continue to embolden divisiveness with diversity?

No, you're way reading between the lines there.

i guess you meant using 'glue' instead of "people maintaining infrastructures"
- super glue works even better

 

[Excelsior]

i did not say no one would survive .. humans would just lose our position as dominant species and as custodians of this biosphere .. we could take our old place back alongside the other primates in small groups scattered about the planet's ruined surface.

Uh...how would we suddenly be alongside the other primates and still not above them? Its not like the people who survive would suddenly lose the intrinsic qualities that homo sapien sapien has.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: bamacre
Some things may have changed, new technologies, new ways of communicating, etc., but the rules of the political game haven't changed one bit in thousands of years.

To those who try to find peace and justice in the world, you will fail. To those who try to find peace and justice within themselves, you will succeed.

Those who try to increase peace and justice in the world can do great things. Those who don't try don't help. Your argume would tell slaves, 'don't end slavery, be content'.

All kinds of great improvements to the well-being of mankind in peace and justice have been made. Your right to vote, your right to free speech and opinions, your right to not have the police beat a confession out of you, your right to basic workplace protections, your right to sue for certain wrongs, your right to have the government protect you from some abuses of powerful interests, the successful struggles for the right to vote of women and blacks (and perhaps soon for gays to get equal marital rights), and many more.

I just saw a documentary on the effort to end the practice of families in western Nepal selling off their daughters to the wealthy city people for a year at a time. One woman from Northern California dedicated herself to the effort and has been involved in freeing thousands of girls. In one of the five provinces who do this, the practice has nearly ended and they're working on the other four. She did not adopt your attitude.

Real leaders like Robert Kennedy liked to say that one person can make a big difference. Those leaders tend to inspire people to make things better.

Your approach does not, it prevents progress. Why would you hate progress so much as to post against the efforts of people to do good things?

Looking at the masses of Americans who were in miserable situations working alongside their 8 year old children 6x16 for barely enough to eat in dangerous factories, you could have said mankind has always had that situation, from the slaves building the pyramids for pharaos to the serfs serving the nobility in feudalism, but those who had a better approach took on the battle, many were killed, and they eventually influenced presidents like the Roosevelts who led the nation to improve things to where they are today.

I think it is your moral duty as a citizen to try to increase peace and justice in the world.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: bamacre
To those who try to find peace and justice in the world, you will fail. To those who try to find peace and justice within themselves, you will succeed.

[...]
I think it is your moral duty as a citizen to try to increase peace and justice in the world.

I'm sure Bush believes the Patriot Act does just that. Peace, justice, the whole nine yards. Beware of what you wish for - good intentions are not enough.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Look at India who gained their freedom at the same time as Pakistan and whose people look very similar to Pakistanis and notice how no one worries about India spreading terrorism to the world etc etc.

What does what they look like have to do with anything?

Anyway, how much oil does India have? You still don't get the idea that fear is created by our government of a group for its own reasons, do you?

Remember when Noriega was a big danger to our nation's security? Indeed, he was even Compare to Hitler.

As was Chavez. Remember the great danger to the US posed by Ortega? Oh, ya.

You still don't understand how the enemies are picked, on rare occassion for 'threat', and far more often for domestic political and economic agendas, and then demonized to build support for the war, with one thing guaranteed, that you will be making posts propagandizing for why the war is good and anyone who questions the need for it is wrong.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Excelsior

i did not say no one would survive .. humans would just lose our position as dominant species and as custodians of this biosphere .. we could take our old place back alongside the other primates in small groups scattered about the planet's ruined surface.

Uh...how would we suddenly be alongside the other primates and still not above them? Its not like the people who survive would suddenly lose the intrinsic qualities that homo sapien sapien has.

in some places - right now ! - homo sapien is not "above the other primates"

i give you P&N as an example .. you can easily pick out the lesser primates for yourself

now .. imagine after a planet-wide disaster - there is War - an EMP blast sends us back to the stone age with no computers, cars or communication - and society is simply *gone* - "poof"! - humans will be killing each other for survival first while the "lesser primates" continue on as usual.
- as a single example of short-sightedness we have 'all of our eggs' in one planetary basket depending on "sillycon"; IF we had "enemies" we are SO vulnerable.

 

[Throckmorton]

It will blow your mind if you learn some ancient history, and realize how strikingly similar the Greek civilization was to our own. For example, patriotism was used to coerce Athens to go to war, the war that bankrupted and virtually destroyed the state.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
It will blow your mind if you learn some ancient history, and realize how strikingly similar the Greek civilization was to our own. For example, patriotism was used to coerce Athens to go to war, the war that bankrupted and virtually destroyed the state.

not really

we based ours on theirs

they are both - *Democracies* .. in greek or english - ancient or modern, they suffer from the same issues - when the Government changes from "Public Service" to "Special Interest" and when voting becomes a "show" and a "Popularity contest" instead of for the best leaders .. it goes to hell in a Big Way.

All democracies have similar problems .. our Brilliant USA Founding Fathers adapted it to last for about 200 years .. it needs a "refresher" now .. and brilliant planners to make it go for another 200 .. that'll get US off planet, i believe and our future as a Race is Secure [more-or-less]

 

[Moonbeam]

I heard somebody on the radio say that his research shows that the civilizations that fell did so in cases where the leaders were not accountable for mistakes.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I heard somebody on the radio say that his research shows that the civilizations that fell did so in cases where the leaders were not accountable for mistakes.

I used to be a DJ .. where? .. when?

:Q







mid 90s, Hawaii

 

[The Green Bean]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Despite all the so called problems and threat of nuclear annihilation we still have a life expectancy far greater than that of our forefathers. We have more money, more food, more entertainment, more power and are generally better off. Perhaps it's time for the rich world to help Africa so even they are elevated out of a state of total hopelessness.

America might not have changed a great deal in 100 years but the rest of the world has come forward by leaps and bounds. 100 years ago we lived as slaves to the British and even fought two world wars in their names. Now things are different. We have our own identity. And that's what has been unsettling the west.

ummm No. Lots of countries have their own identity and we could care less.

What is unsettling to the west is the number of Muslims who believe that it is their duty to spread Islam to the world by any means necessary. The fact that Pakistan is the home to many of these people is a problem

Look at India who gained their freedom at the same time as Pakistan and whose people look very similar to Pakistanis and notice how no one worries about India spreading terrorism to the world etc etc.

That's because nobody in your countries care for the state sponsored terrorism committed by them in Kashmir and Gujrat. It's on a far greater scale than anything that could be achieved by Alqaeeda.

The aim of your war on terror is not to prevent future terrorist attacks but to try and prevent Islam from progressing. It would be stupid to think otherwise with the money and resources poured into it and the number of wars and war crimes committed based on lies.

 

[Kerouactivist]

Originally posted by: sandorski
I had a similar revelation and humbling while reading the book Decline of the West by Oswald Spengler. It is not so much a History book, as much as it is a philosophy of reading History. From it I realized that we are not superior to past Civilizations or the people who made up those Civilizations. We are merely made up of the sum of those Civilizations and only have accomplished what we have because of what they discovered and developed. They were as Intelligent, as Creative, and as Innovative as we are.

Like them, unfortunately, we have their same weaknesses. We are not invulnerable and if not careful will end just like they did. All Civilizations end because the People making up those Civilizations become overwhelmed by and/or just quit maintaining the Infrastructures(both physical and non-physical)that hold them together. Complexity is inevitable and is the main reason I dismiss the "Small Government" types with their ill thought out "simple solutions" that are more trying to grasp for a fabled glorious past that never existed than actually dealing with the issues that plague us. Our only hope is to go forward and to continue Innovating and addressing the Issues that are at hand. So far we have done a very good job, from Industrialization to the Computer and many more Advances have allowed the Complexity we have achieved .

I highly recommend, again for he nth time too , the book Decline of the West. It is a collection of articles written by Oswald Spengler in the first quarter of the 20th Century. Not only is it an interesting view about History, but it is also full of interesting facts and details about past Civilizations that most people may never know about otherwise.

I completely agree...i've been reading this book on Rosseau and Hume and it's fascinating in many regards but it's funny to see insight into the way people lived and how many of the uppity religious types look back on era's like those as a time of morals and what not....when those people even by the current "religious" moral champions own standards probably led far more "scandelous" lifestyles than we see today....not to mention the chastising of scientific and philosophical ideas that are readily accepted today... It really is such an interesting topic to examine...
I haven't read decline of the west but I would also suggest for anyone interested in similar topics to check out some of Jared Diamond's works or further down the rabbit hole one of the many books about historical sociology...I'm particularly fond of Immanuel Wallerstein or perhaps some Antonio Gramsci...
It really is such a facinating topic...

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Wheezer
the one constant in all that history?

people suck.

It's funny how the right wing tends to have the negative view of mankind, and the liberals tend to have the positive, caring view of mankind.

The right is so often about 'don't do things' and the left is often about 'do things to make the world better'.

The right tends to embrace the progress the left accomplishes over their opposition - I don't see many of them demanding the return of slavery, 6x16 work weeks for starvation wages in dangerous factories, unregulated financial markets that reward the thieves and rob society, 'separate but equal' public facilities and laws allowing blacks to be banned from neghborhoods, schools and other things, repealing product safety laws, repealing womens' right to vote, returning to 90% poverty among the elderly, returning to global colonialism as practiced by Europeans with the US going along, a lack of any environmental protections, the days when abuses of police and governmental authority were much more commonplace, when public colleges barely existed, and so on.

The (ok, a) fallacy of the right is to try to pretend they were for those things all along, and instead assign blame to liberals for the authoritarian regimes from Stalin to Mao to Pol Pot.

Their flawed logic tends to lead them to support the Republicans who have opposed nearly all of the above (the main exception being the civil rights movement which they partly supported, but over which the Southern US - key to the presidential elections - changed to the Republican party who was happy to pander to the racism), simply over the misguided fear that they think the Republicans will keep the US from bcoming Mao's China, or some such paranoia.

Only Reagan/Bush 41 can protect you from the USSR, only Bush 43 can protect you from Al Queda, etc.

 

[bbdub333]

It's funny how the right wing tends to have the negative view of mankind, and the liberals tend to have the positive, caring view of mankind.

The right is so often about 'don't do things' and the left is often about 'do things to make the world better'.

Wow....just..wow

I'm going to bookmark this for use anytime you deny being an arrogant, hyper-partisan douchebag.

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Vic
On a "philosophical" note, it is a scientific fact (as much as evolution) that the human concept of the passage of time is an illusion. In reality, time is just another dimension(s?) of space. It doesn't pass, we do, through it. Just as we travel through space.

edit:

Originally posted by: ultra laser
http://www.amazon.com/World-Wi...&qid=1207971325&sr=8-2

This will answer your questions.

Indeed.

That's tough to wrap your brain around. Well at least it is for me.

I fully agree. It is for everyone as far as I know. The human brain is ill-equipped to visualize more than 3 dimensions of space. What I do is remove the z axis so I can see the t axis. Like a photograph moving through time. Like the discussion we had a week or so ago about visualizing the universe as an expanding balloon with 3-dimensional space as the surface of the balloon and time as the expansion.

edit: and (in response to the OP) does this make me feel humble? You have no idea. Or perhaps you do.

well do you?


i am humbled by just about everything from the sub-micro to the macro and they are connected and are the same

and are we really energy or matter?

Huh? Yes, I am humble.
Energy and matter are 2 forms of the same thing. Matter is "bottled" energy, and energy is that which causes matter to be energetic. In between is space. Which pushes against the other to cause gravity? Ah... the rub. No one knows.

It is this humility, in fact, that prevents me from being atheist, despite the pressure, even the personal desire, to do so. Regardless of how this came about, I am literally in endless/boundless awe... and gratitude. Yet so perfect, no God required, who to be grateful to? It's why I refuse to be negative, despite everything. Ah. the beauty of creation...

For once, Vic, we agree on something.

I am Catholic. More basic than that, I am a theist because of the reason you stated.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Craig234
It's funny how the right wing tends to have the negative view of mankind, and the liberals tend to have the positive, caring view of mankind.

Uhhh... yeah... I think you have a pretty warped view of reality if you really think that. Sheesh. If libs really did think like you claim, they wouldn't be saying the solution to everything is more gov't intervention.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: Craig234
It's funny how the right wing tends to have the negative view of mankind, and the liberals tend to have the positive, caring view of mankind.

Uhhh... yeah... I think you have a pretty warped view of reality if you really think that. Sheesh. If libs really did think like you claim, they wouldn't be saying the solution to everything is more gov't intervention.

At least they are not talking about "heavenly" Government intervention by Jesus - lead miraculously by his little bush Messiah