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Does anybody still think that people in general are good ?

T

TranceNation

Platinum Member

I think this is what people who are young who've never faced the real world think. But the truth is, people do what they have to do and usually if they are 'nice' to you it's for their own reasons and personal gain.
 


<< I think this is what people who are young who've never faced the real world think. But the truth is, people do what they have to do and usually if they are 'nice' to you it's for their own reasons and personal gain. >>



Not necessarily true... some people are just genuinely nice, I have a friend who is just nice for the sake of being himself... he has absolutely no alterior motives. However, I do agree w/ you that there are a lot of people out there who have alterior motive.. and its these types of people that make you suspect everybody else being back-stabbing users.

Just understand that you have to be careful when encountering people who just seem to be nice... on one hand, they might be genuine.. on the other, they may be holding a knife in their hands...

)(GG)
 
in oklahoma they are. one thing i miss about oklahoma since coming to la are the drivers. they are soooo much nicer in oklahoma. people are just so friendly there too.

 


<< in oklahoma they are. one thing i miss about oklahoma since coming to la are the drivers. they are soooo much nicer in oklahoma. people are just so friendly there too. >>



Yep, the only thing you had to worry about in Oklahoma back in the day was Lil' Timothy, but he's off taking his Rip Van Winkle nap right now - so it's all good 🙂

)(GG)
 


<< in oklahoma they are. one thing i miss about oklahoma since coming to la are the drivers. they are soooo much nicer in oklahoma. people are just so friendly there too. >>




Personally, I think people in Oklahoma drive like crap....except me of course. 😎

For the most part I believe that people tend to be a bit conniving, but in the long run people are basically good.

That being said, it does seem that more and more, you have to use utmost caution to protect yourself from the evils of society.
 
People in general are good. It is the situations that they are faced with everyday that makes them otherwise.
 
Not necessarily true... some people are just genuinely nice, I have a friend who is just nice for the sake of being himself... he has absolutely no alterior motives.

well, while they may not realize that they have ulterior motives, i believe there is no such thing as a purely altruistic action.

this is a little philosophical, so be forewarned.

why do people do what they do? well, because they want to, for the most part. so, when your friend is being nice... he is doing something he wants to do. he's not doing it for the sake of being nice, he's doing it to be nice, and to fulfill his desire to do whatever it is he's doing.

here's an example. if you saw a kid in a burning house and you risked life and limb to save him, people would call you a hero, and people would call it an unselfish act. but isn't really? why did you save the kid? because you couldn't just stand there and watch the flames eat his flesh. and you would feel horrible if you just ran away. which means, that by saving him, you were fulfilling your own desire, the desire to avoid the picture and guilt of him being burned alive.

dunno if that made any sense, that's just my fvcked up philosophy 😀
 
No, people in general aren't 'good'. It depends solely on the character of each individual, some are indeed 'good', others are obsessed by greed or other desires, others don't care about anyone but themselves.

There's a very good explanation for this: each brain has a unique structure, thus everyone has a unique character, there's no 'default' setting, so in general people are not 'good'.

Everyone's unique, therefore every generalization fails.
 
yeah.. but why do people just walk away when someone's purse gets snatched in a crowd? ... people are to busy with their lives to help others...
 
yeah.. but why do people just walk away when someone's purse gets snatched in a crowd? ... people are to busy with their lives to help others...

well i dunno about that. certainly there are those who are too busy, but i think a lot of them just don't want to get hurt or something. if i saw some spindly midget stealing a purse i'd be all over him like crisco on rosie.



on the topic at hand... i think that people can be good... as long as it doesn't get in the way of their personal interest too much.
 


<< why do people do what they do? well, because they want to, for the most part. so, when your friend is being nice... he is doing something he wants to do. he's not doing it for the sake of being nice, he's doing it to be nice, and to fulfill his desire to do whatever it is he's doing. >>



Hmmm what if it's a personal trait? A personality per se? You can't control that can you? It's your surroundings that effect you - make you who you are... and if somebody is raised in such a way, their personality shifts so that they become that which they are exposed to (good or bad) - if this is the case, then people who are nice aren't doing it becasuse THEY WANT to, they're doing it w/o even knowing that they're doing it... it's a trait in such a case...

)(GG)
 


<< on the topic at hand... i think that people can be good... as long as it doesn't get in the way of their personal interest too much >>



Some people can be good regardless of whether or not their personal interest stands in there way... believe it or not, there are people like this! Just not a lot... I don't think...

See - there comes a time, when there is something that a person wants... and even though it is his personal interest to get it... and even though it may be something really important to him, he'd still consider the well being of others beforehand, he wouldn't want to hurt anymore... this is truly difficult to find in today's society though - one thing is for sure, they DO exist.

)(GG)
 
Hmmm what if it's a personal trait? A personality per se? You can't control that can you? It's your surroundings that effect you - make you who you are... and if somebody is raised in such a way, their personality shifts so that they become that which they are exposed to (good or bad) - if this is the case, then people who are nice aren't doing it becasuse THEY WANT to, they're doing it w/o even knowing that they're doing it... it's a trait in such a case...

yea, actually that was what i was talking about. i guess i wasn't too clear, sorry.

yes, it is subconscious that they are nice. but if it is part of their personality, i think that they would be uncomfortable if they did anything other than what their gut reaction was, right? they do what naturally comes to them, what feels "right" to them. this means that they are doing things, in part, for the purpose of not feeling uncomfortable at having done something against their instinct. which is a roundabout way of saying, they're doing things because they want to 🙂

whether or not their wants are subconscious, is irrelevant in my mind. i look at it like this... if a person behaves in a conventionally selfish manner (taking the last beer... etc), it isn't always because they are consciously making an effort to be conventionally selfish. sometimes, they are naturally conventionally selfish. they just do conventionally selfish things without thinking. but we still call them selfish (in the conventional usage, of course). so it stands to reason that if we decide to recognize conventionally altruistic actions as selfish actions in reality, we can conclude that those people formerly considered altruistic are no longer.

damn that was wordy, but i don't know any other way to put it. you can replace "conventionally selfish" with "violent". i suppose that might make things clearer.
 


<< No, people in general aren't 'good'. It depends solely on the character of each individual, some are indeed 'good', others are obsessed by greed or other desires, others don't care about anyone but themselves. >>



But what is driving these individuals to commit these actions? What are the kinds of messages that are relayed to children? It is societal pressure to posses things. People do have to be selfish in order to survive. Thing you own end up owning you. True happiness can only be achieved if you are able to give up the thing(s) you love the most and still be just as happy as when you possesed it (them).



<< There's a very good explanation for this: each brain has a unique structure, thus everyone has a unique character, there's no 'default' setting, so in general people are not 'good'. >>



On the contrary. Although genetics may determine certain physiological characteristics, it however does not determine good and bad. External stimuli mold personalities.

 
Some people can be good regardless of whether or not their personal interest stands in there way... believe it or not, there are people like this! Just not a lot... I don't think...

See - there comes a time, when there is something that a person wants... and even though it is his personal interest to get it... and even though it may be something really important to him, he'd still consider the well being of others beforehand, he wouldn't want to hurt anymore... this is truly difficult to find in today's society though - one thing is for sure, they DO exist.

i guess this would blend into the whole altruistic thing i just talked about.

it depends on how you define personal interest i suppose. the way i look at it is this... if the other person does not get the thing he wants, because he considered the well being of others beforehand, it means he is a better person that most. but i do not think he is acting without regard to his personal interest. clearly, he values the well being of the other people. he would feel bad if he compromised it, and to him, the guilt from having done so was not enough to outweigh the benefit from having done so. so in that sense, he was acting towards the benefit of his personal interest.
 
On the contrary. Although genetics may determine certain physiological characteristics, it however does not determine good and bad. External stimuli mold personalities.

maybe i'm wrong, but when i read his post, i thought he was trying to say that genetics don't determine "good and bad".
 


<< whether or not their wants are subconscious, is irrelevant in my mind. i look at it like this... if a person behaves in a conventionally selfish manner (taking the last beer... etc), it isn't always because they are consciously making an effort to be conventionally selfish. sometimes, they are naturally conventionally selfish. they just do conventionally selfish things without thinking. but we still call them selfish (in the conventional usage, of course). so it stands to reason that if we decide to recognize conventionally altruistic actions as selfish actions in reality, we can conclude that those people formerly considered altruistic are no longer. >>



Yeah, always the idea w/ those beer commercials, where there's always one left, and everybody looks at each other , then goes for the beer. You know what this may bring up though right? Now the fact that these people may have a selfish identity/conscience/personality.... but rather a competitive one... I have been striken w/ such a time in my life.. I would feel as if I have gotten a better "Deal" than the next guy if I get one extra cookie, or a little more pepsi... or an extra slice of pizza. Not necessarily because I'm a bad guy.. but it might just come to show that today's social norms have made today's society very competitive.

Imagine a family of 4... the parents and 2 children... there are so many cases when these two children would fight for their parents affection.... not to say that they hate each other, or necessarily want their parents to really love one over the other - not even shell-fish 😉 in some cases. IT's seems to be competition most of the time... as if it might be embedded in our blood over the years. But then again, this brings about a whole new topic in how the human brain reacts to its surrounds and how personalities and mentalities are shifted accordingly

)(GG)
 


<<

<< No, people in general aren't 'good'. It depends solely on the character of each individual, some are indeed 'good', others are obsessed by greed or other desires, others don't care about anyone but themselves. >>



But what is driving these individuals to commit these actions? What are the kinds of messages that are relayed to children? It is societal pressure to posses things. People do have to be selfish in order to survive. Thing you own end up owning you. True happiness can only be achieved if you are able to give up the thing(s) you love the most and still be just as happy as when you possesed it (them). >>

Input from the environment (society) can change the character of an individual but will certainly influence it.




<< There's a very good explanation for this: each brain has a unique structure, thus everyone has a unique character, there's no 'default' setting, so in general people are not 'good'. >>



On the contrary. Although genetics may determine certain physiological characteristics, it however does not determine good and bad. External stimuli mold personalities.[/i] >>

Have you ever considered that 'good' and 'bad' are just subjective terms?

The society a person lives in shapes the personality of an individual. Depending on the personality of the person,
s/he will either reject or accept certain morals and ideas. Everyone has his or her own ideas on what is 'good' and 'bad'.

Everyone considers his own ideas on what is 'good' as being the only right idea, unless another person is able to convince him that this idea is false.
Certain ideas on what is 'good' and 'bad' therefore survive in a society, others become extinct.

Therefore, saying that person is 'good' or 'bad' as a child depends totally on the society it is raised in.

'Good' and 'bad' doesn't exist outside the world we Humans have created.
 


<< Have you ever considered that 'good' and 'bad' are just subjective terms? >>



Absolutely, good and bad is relative to specific cultures... what may be good in the US might be blasphemy in China... and vice versa... but according to this argument, to make things simple (don't think that's possible anymore) we shall assume that good means sincere - kindness w/o motive, and bad as alterior motives embedded w/in people who fake their kindness

)(GG)
 
Of course the terms good and bad are very subjective but, the thread title is directed toward the 'general' characterics of a human being. That which is most basic. I believe that kindness and thoughtfulness are virtues that are universally accepted and practiced as 'good', whereas greed and selfishness (from your previous post) are not. Everyone benefits from such quantities in a person. Socities may have a different norms but a society which fails to recognize certain basic principles is one that cannot function.
 
While questions can be easy to ask by anyone, that doesn't mean the answers can be had on an equal basis. This is one of those questions that produce synthetic, imagined answers. As I see it, to answer this question you need to know the origin of evil. In order to know the origin of evil, you have to find the origin within yourself. That would mean that we would first have to see that evil is a characteristic, property and attribute that we have. Who do you know that sees his own evil. To see ones own evil is to suffer pain. Who do you know that will willingly suffer pain. The answer to this question, then, is invisible because it can only be answered by suffering, reliving the traumatic experiences of childhood when we were subverted from the path of our ture natures and forced to adopt falsness, ie evil. Since the door into these experiences of feeling are barred by the most powerful conditioning not to go there that is possible, we can have not even the slightest understanding that we were born perfect, in the image of God. We cannot know, are terrified to know, will do anything to avoid knowing, that we are perfect. In just a few minutes you will completely forget that you even read this.
 


<<

<< Have you ever considered that 'good' and 'bad' are just subjective terms? >>



Absolutely, good and bad is relative to specific cultures... what may be good in the US might be blasphemy in China... and vice versa... but according to this argument, to make things simple (don't think that's possible anymore) we shall assume that good means sincere - kindness w/o motive, and bad as alterior motives embedded w/in people who fake their kindness

)(GG) >>

As innocent as a newborn, that's what you mean, eh? 🙂

Another scientific fact: the brain of a newborn is far from finished. The adult brain contains four times as many neurons as that of a newborn.
A newborn is also (nearly) blind because the optic nerve hasn't connected to the visual cortex yet.

Since such a newborn's mind is very sensitive to input, anything which happens in the first two years will have a lot of influence on it.

Therefore I wouldn't say that a young child is 'sincere' or anything, but it's a blank page, waiting to be filled by its environment.
You could even say that a young child is simply lacking any reference to compare things with and therefore assumes that everything people tell him/her is true.
Why else would young children so easily be tricked into believing that Santa, the boogy man etc. are all real?
They lack the information and logic to disprove those things.

Bottomline is that children know nothing and are not critical and at least in the first few years of their existance their environment will determine what they think
and believe in. Then, when they get older, they'll become critical of everything because they learn to use logic to disprove certain things they've been told and they'll have access
to more information.
 
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