Documentary on bribery - focus on BAE Systems-Saudis

[Craig234]

There are too many good lessons to be drawn from this excellent documentary to list in this introduction.

This documentary seems to me to expose the rarely seen underbelly of the modern 'Military-Industrial complex' Eisenhower warned about - as a global issue.

In fact, as the documentary shows, the US has been 'the lone ranger' on the issue ever sinve the Watergate backlash ans election of Jimmy Carter led to the US pioneering putting the ethicsal position against bribery into legislation, and led the world, who did not follow too willingly. The Republican administrations that followed even found themselves in the unexpected position of leading the charge against bribery - albeit for the motive of the competitive disadvantage US corporations faced.

Watch the documentary, and recognize what a tip of the iceberg it represents, the facades of so much the governments do, the terribly inappropriate power wielded by companies.

And be proud of the US's leadership role gainst this bribery. The bribery isn't innocent, it has all kinds of harm.

What to do? Watch for chances to pressure your own government to stand against it and to pressure other nations to do so.

Bribery, in corrupting governments, has effects ranging from blocking democracy and putting people in power who are not necessarily too concerned with the public welfare, to the waste of resources that are stolen from the public and the inefficiences they create in the marketplace where inferior, overpriced and unnecessary systems are purchaased, to problems with blackmail and inappropriate debts and coverups.

Link

 

[heyheybooboo]

It was pretty good stuff - - wish I had an expense account like those in the documentary.

Clearly BAE needs to bribe, errr (scratch that) contribute to more political action committees in the US to avert a future crisis.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
It was pretty good stuff - - wish I had an expense account like those in the documentary.

Clearly BAE needs to bribe, errr (scratch that) contribute to more political action committees in the US to avert a future crisis.

What did you think of the Blair behavior on the issue?

Anyone else watch this? I'd hope some people will put the effort in to get good info.

 

[jpeyton]

This is exactly why the reforms that Gates and Obama have alluded to in the Pentagon are so vital.

The military needs to change the way they deal with procurement, contracts, etc.

 

[sciwizam]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
This is exactly why the reforms that Gates and Obama have eluded to in the Pentagon are so vital.

The military needs to change the way they deal with procurement, contracts, etc.

alluded

/word nazi

 

[alien42]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
It was pretty good stuff - - wish I had an expense account like those in the documentary.

Clearly BAE needs to bribe, errr (scratch that) contribute to more political action committees in the US to avert a future crisis.

What did you think of the Blair behavior on the issue?

Anyone else watch this? I'd hope some people will put the effort in to get good info.

if you are talking about the reporters question at 34 min in on the "Political Pressures at the Highest Levels" segment, at least he was being honest. i personally found GWBs response to be hilarious, i LOL everytime i play it. he snaps his neck real quick with a brief 'oh shit' look and then laughs about Blair being asked the question and not himself.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: alien42

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
It was pretty good stuff - - wish I had an expense account like those in the documentary.

Clearly BAE needs to bribe, errr (scratch that) contribute to more political action committees in the US to avert a future crisis.

What did you think of the Blair behavior on the issue?

Anyone else watch this? I'd hope some people will put the effort in to get good info.

if you are talking about the reporters question at 34 min in on the "Political Pressures at the Highest Levels" segment, at least he was being honest. i personally found GWBs response to be hilarious, i LOL everytime i play it. he snaps his neck real quick with a brief 'oh shit' look and then laughs about Blair being asked the question and not himself.

I agree about the Bush reaction, but if you think Blair was 'being honest', your name is well chosen. Blair was clearly in 'flounder spin mode'.

Yes, he had to cancel the investigation because he was sure it was not going to find anything. That was a bad joke. That clip is great for showing how the guilty squirm.

I have little doubt Blair had made made his choice that for various reasons - like the Saudi blackmail on security - he needed to protect the corruption, and then he did.

It was a bad politician's spin, notice after the transparent nonsense about the investigation prediction it wouldn't find anything, he rushed to mention 'thousands of jobs'.

If you are looking for a nice clip of the corruption of the 'military industrial complex', this one works pretty well.

It's also a pretty nice indictment of the lawless messes Reagan and Thatcher got their nations in, from 'arms for hostages' and El Salvadorn Death Squads and Contra terrorists with Reagan, to this corrupt arms deal by Thatcher. I know the righties wet themselves over those two, because of things like Thatcher's victory over the global threat of Argentina's military junta and her saying not to 'get wobbly', but they are like children on the matters, not informed or interested in the wrongs that corrupt and threaten our nations.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Blair kinda bumbled and muttered at first but finished with an air of authority - not that he was being straight-up - but at least he acted like they were on top of the situation.

I was surprised when the OCED guy (I think) said by law they can't go after the "bribe-ee" - that they were set up to go after the "bribe-er"

I was also (pleasantly) surprised when they said 'saving employment' was not a legitimate excuse for corporate bribes - that seemed to be one of the lame BAE / UK excuses about those 20k (?) jobs.

Good for them - too bad Congress doesn't feel that way ...

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Blair kinda bumbled and muttered at first but finished with an air of authority - not that he was being straight-up - but at least he acted like they were on top of the situation.

You say that like it's a good thing. If you have watched Blair lie and spin for years, you recognize that *of course*, that's his style, to sell the BS when needed.

If he was weak in selling the BS, looking at his shoes and mumbling, he'd not be too good at it; he's long learned that an excess of acting like he's sure of it helps sell it.

Look back at his contemporary, Bill Clinton, as he said with steely eyes and voice, how he did not have sexual relations with that woman - very convincing.

The fact you sound like you are giving *credit* to Blair for this - as in 'well, lying would be wrong, but if he at least really tells the lie enthusiastically it's not so bad', is terrible.

Judge him by the size of the lie - and apparently I have to inform you, the bigger the lie the worse, since you seem confused on that.

I was surprised when the OCED guy (I think) said by law they can't go after the "bribe-ee" - that they were set up to go after the "bribe-er"

That's how the law was written, perhaps one of those 'sounded good at the time' things; since the law was aimed at US corporations who were bribing foreigners we had no jurisdiction over usually, it may just not have occured to the authors to consider the rare case where a bribee might be in our jurisdiction (of course we already have laws against government officials being bribed. Sort of.)

The problem here is the difficulty in even getting the law against the briber acted on.

I was also (pleasantly) surprised when they said 'saving employment' was not a legitimate excuse for corporate bribes - that seemed to be one of the lame BAE / UK excuses about those 20k (?) jobs.

Good for them - too bad Congress doesn't feel that way ...

I'm not sure why you were so reassured that a commentator said the right thing, while *Blair* and other government officials defended the opposite.

Isn't that a little like saying in 1942 you were pleasantly surprised to hear international rights groups say the holocaust is wrong, since those lame Nazis are defending it?

 

[theeedude]

Wow, doesn't surprise me Republicans want PBS gone.

 

[da loser]

this isn't a military industrial complex issue nor procurement.

this problem is more about what happens when one deals with 3rd world countries on anything. and how exporting to those countries helps enrich their corrupt leaders. while first world countries citizens benefit with jobs and their large companies with profit.

the interesting part was why BAE was even involved. when the US was selling F-15s to saudi arabia. and the effect israel had on it.

also, why does the world tolerate switzerland? it's just like delaware with their business laws.

the world should place them on the same list as north korea until they are willing to share their account info.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: da loser
this isn't a military industrial complex issue nor procurement.

this problem is more about what happens when one deals with 3rd world countries on anything. and how exporting to those countries helps enrich their corrupt leaders. while first world countries citizens benefit with jobs and their large companies with profit.

Actually, it's both. Third world countries were not the initiators, the lead powers, in the deal.

the interesting part was why BAE was even involved. when the US was selling F-15s to saudi arabia. and the effect israel had on it.

The answer involves what you said is not relevant, the military-industrial complex issues.

also, why does the world tolerate switzerland? it's just like delaware with their business laws.

the world should place them on the same list as north korea until they are willing to share their account info.

Good point.

The basic answer there, unfortunately, seems to simply involve the amount of power of the people who want it that way.

The public really often fails to understand how easy it is for politicians to meet the needs of those powerful interests, while putting on a dog and pony show for the public.

Actually standing up to invisible powerful groups has a big price and little reward, unfortunately, in our political system, as Tony Blair so well demonstrated.

Blair seems to me the sort of misguided leader who thinks that mitigating the damage of the powerful interests while serving them and putting on a happy face to the public is somehow noble public service, when it's little more than selling out the public interest and being an enabler.

 

[GeezerMan]

Former FBI Director Louis Freeh is now Saudi Prince Bandar's lawyer?

I'm sure glad the U.S. has full transparency and controls in place for the trillion dollar bank bailout. :disgust:

As for Tony Blair's spinning ability, you guys read that he is now the world's highest paid speaker?
Link