Doctrinal discussion from Catholic Church thread

[Retro Rob]

That's a fair criticism, and if you would like to point out such situations I'm likely to agree that there's a doctrinal problem

Just to address this quickly, I think its well-documented that immortality of the soul and Christmas are pagan teachings.

Yet, these are part of Christian doctrine and teaching. Knowing this, why are they still taught/celebrated having full knowlegde of their origins?

 

[Dr. Zaus]

I will also refer you to Colossians 1:15 where it is written "The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. " This word 'image' is the word iconus, or Icon, and is literally the exact representation of something, coming from the idea of the reflection of the sun in the water. You'll find that this is something that the WTG has not updated, as they seem to have overlooked the meaning of the word.

Jesus is the Icon of God. So, in a similar way you can click on your fire-fox Chrome icon and it opens up the .exe in the programs file, so too is Jesus directly linked to God, but separate at the same time, because he is a representation.

Just to address this quickly, I think its well-documented that immortality of the soul and Christmas are pagan teachings.

Yet, these are part of Christian doctrine and teaching. Knowing this, why are they still taught/celebrated having full knowlegde of their origins?

The way we celebrate Christmas does much better map-up to pegan tradition; and the focus on the birth of Christ in the Quran gives me pause. But it is in the heart of the person that sin is created; when Christmass is about other-hurting self-serving lust or greed, then it is evil; otherwise If your heart is in worship of God then by faith we are cleansed.

I understand that you've been taught to be a Jehovah's Witness and given a LOT of emotional reasons to despise/dismiss the "they" that is mainstream Christianity; Something you've clearly carried over while still not fully accepting the teachings of the Watch-Tower-Group.

You should know that the WTG had to lie about what the bible says in greek inorder to make their case for the angelic nature of Jesus; I encourage you to get-ahold of John 1 in the greek and see if there's a hair-breath of difference between the greek that they translate "the word was A god" and later in the chapter where it refers to God-head with the exact same words.

immortality of the soul

You'll have to talk to John in Revelations for that one; I don't think the bible teaches annihilation, but rather a universalism: as "eternity" in revelations is translated from the grek 'aeons and aeons', which is to say, literally, a few thousand years.

Not to say that those that live a life of self-serving other-hurting lust and pride are 'off the hook'; as it's fairly clear that the wall-of-fire they have to escape through is a harsh one.

 

[OrByte]

My problem is that you all have a history of stealing pagan traditions and calling it Christian. Christmas celebrating and Greek Philosophy, things you haven't addressed, are just two of them. Did Jesus tell his followers to remember his birthday? No, it was his death. Did Jesus advise yall to kill non-believers? He admonished to "Love neighbor as self", yet blood fills the early Church.

It so happen that the Trinity dogma came mainstream 300-400 years after the Apostles died, along with the rest of the so-called "Christian Traditions" you guys still teach till this day.

This stuff is deeply ingrained in Christendom, along with their meddles in Politics (also something Jesus didn't do, nor his Apostles). Yet, there are plenty so-called "Christians" running for office and attempting to influence law-making.

You all have zero credibilty when it comes to proper Biblical interpretation.

EDIT: In fact, Christianity sprang from Judaism. Judaism was Unitarian, and you guys are Trinitarian? Sound like you're deviating from the truth.

zero credibility?

do you treat all religions the same as you treat Christianity? because all religions are guilty somewhat of what you describe..just sayin...

You focus on the term "trinity" and the concept as if it was manufactured. do you know that the Chiefs and the Priests at the time that jesus walked the earth asked the same questions as you do today? They asked him to his face! The evidence provided to them was no greater than what is given to you now.

The answers unfortunately will not be any more satisfying to you...you who claim to be a student of the bible.

 

[OrByte]

Just to address this quickly, I think its well-documented that immortality of the soul and Christmas are pagan teachings.

Yet, these are part of Christian doctrine and teaching. Knowing this, why are they still taught/celebrated having full knowlegde of their origins?

the teachings of the immortal soul goes all the way back to Egypt. Well before todays modern religions.

The teaching of an immortal soul is shared amongst most of religions today.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

zero credibility?

do you treat all religions the same as you treat Christianity? because all religions are guilty somewhat of what you describe..just sayin...

You focus on the term "trinity" and the concept as if it was manufactured. do you know that the Chiefs and the Priests at the time that jesus walked the earth asked the same questions as you do today? They asked him to his face! The evidence provided to them was no greater than what is given to you now.

The answers unfortunately will not be any more satisfying to you...you who claim to be a student of the bible.

Given that every view he's espoused is in line with the watch-tower-group, and he's admitted to being a "student of the bible"... "though I've considered much of [the watch tower group's] material" there's little doubt that he's a Jahova's Witness, or an apostate that still stands near them.


Last time I talked to a couple of JWs that came to my door I showed them exactly what I've pointed out here and, despite my honest and friendly invitation, they never returned. It could be that what I said seemed to be getting through to the clearly less experienced one of the two.

 

[JEDIYoda]

there's little doubt that he's a Jahova's Witness, or an apostate that still stands near them.

exactly!!

 

[Retro Rob]

Given that every view he's espoused is in line with the watch-tower-group, and he's admitted to being a "student of the bible"... "though I've considered much of [the watch tower group's] material" there's little doubt that he's a Jahova's Witness, or an apostate that still stands near them.


Last time I talked to a couple of JWs that came to my door I showed them exactly what I've pointed out here and, despite my honest and friendly invitation, they never returned. It could be that what I said seemed to be getting through to the clearly less experienced one of the two.

Actually, I have done my own personal research and have come to the conclusion that some of the Christian rituals have roots in Egypt (triune god's -- the God of the Bible overthrew Egypt in the OT largely due to their idol worship and enslavement of Israel), using Crosses started in Ancient Babylon, Soul Immortaliy also have roots in non-Christian pagan worship.

Excuse me for doing research, I know you guys are forbidden from questioning your leaders.

Why should I be a Christian when they have stolen from Pagan worship, doing things God condemed, idolatry being one of them? Christmas being another one you all have stolen?

What do Catholics worship? God, Mary, the Pope? All three of them? They talk about Mary and hold her higher than their "savior" Jesus. I see statues of Mary in front of Catholics' houses and have seen them even pray to mary. Are not prayers supposed to be directed to God?

God says that you should call no one on earth your Father (in a religious sense) yet people in your organization are called "Holy Father".

Get your own house together before you talk about someone else.

 

[sandorski]

The reason for the concept of the Trinity is basically because of Jesus' talk about the Father, other talk about the Holy Spirit being sent to comfort believers after Jesus leaves, and of course the idea that Jesus was "God" as well.

These 3 independently acknowledged entities didn't quite match up with the Old Testament acknowledgement of a singular entity in Yahweh. So, as is normal, this discrepancy needed to be addressed.

Ya, I have to agree that Rob M certainly sounds like a Jehovahs Witness by what he is saying. Although, as it may be apparent already, I don't believe any of it. His possibly being JW makes no difference to me than from others being Whatever Christian.They all have the same fundamental problem, that being a complete lack of evidence to support their assertions.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Excuse me for doing research, I know you guys are forbidden from questioning your leaders.

excuse me for waiting for a reasoned response to my actual points before I allow you to throw more spegetti at the wall. BTW, you're the one that said I did not have the "authority" to read scripture, and my denomination is congregationalist: our leaders are elected, and we constantly question them.

Your anti-catholic rant has nothing logically to do with defending your position.

They all have the same fundamental problem, that being a complete lack of evidence to support their assertions.

I assert that faith in Christ helped my parents stop being coke addicts: I present the fact that they are not coke addicts today and say it is because of their faith in Christ. I further assert that if you accept Christ who you are can be changed to be more like Christ: I present the fact that many a person has moved past a great deal of their other-hurting self-serving lust and pride because of this faith in Christ (and admit that this is not a fully-perfect system, as those same folks still have many other-hurting self-serving things in their life, often pride).

I'd be happy to respond further in a thread on that subject, as opposed to one of doctrine re: the trinity.

These 3 independently acknowledged entities didn't quite match up with the Old Testament acknowledgement of a singular entity in Yahweh. So, as is normal, this discrepancy needed to be addressed.

Abraham bowed down and tithed to Melchizedek, who Hebrews establishes IS Jesus. Further, "we" is used in Genesis when speaking of creation. Finally, the divinity of the Messiah to come is well established in Isaiah.

See JY's awesome biblical exegesis for particular passages that indicate the divinity of the Messiah to come and the unified-multiplicity of OT God.

I agree we have a harder time with such support for the trinity, ie Jesus as God is solidly present in the old testament but the Holy Spirit as such is much harder to find, so I admit from a biblical hermeneutic/historiological perspective it's hard to find evidence for: But intellectual questions about this have fallen away from me ever since the day I was filled with the Spirit... Though I admit, I can't call that proof for anyone but myself.

 

[Retro Rob]

The reason for the concept of the Trinity is basically because of Jesus' talk about the Father, other talk about the Holy Spirit being sent to comfort believers after Jesus leaves, and of course the idea that Jesus was "God" as well.

These 3 independently acknowledged entities didn't quite match up with the Old Testament acknowledgement of a singular entity in Yahweh. So, as is normal, this discrepancy needed to be addressed.

Ya, I have to agree that Rob M certainly sounds like a Jehovahs Witness by what he is saying. Although, as it may be apparent already, I don't believe any of it. His possibly being JW makes no difference to me than from others being Whatever Christian.They all have the same fundamental problem, that being a complete lack of evidence to support their assertions.

No, I've read up on them, and a number of different religions. Most seem to just go with the flow, they are the few that don't.

I happen to compare what most religions teach with what's in the Bible. A whole bunch of "Christian" denominations have borrowed from each other, or Ancient religions.. some of which God overthrew in the Bible (Egypt, Babylon, for instance).

I don't think there's anything wrong with being careful about what you'll accept, and I feel that Christianity has caused more harm than good to their message.

I am just being careful -- that it all.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

I am just being careful -- that it all.

If that was the case then you would carefully respond to the points made, instead of carefully throwing down an anti-roman-catholic-church rant. You would carefully read the scripture presented and the exegesis of it, and carefully consider it; instead of carefully distracting from the issue and carefully waiting to respond to something tangential to the thread.

Why should I be a Christian when they have stolen from Pagan worship, doing things God condemed, idolatry being one of them? Christmas being another one you all have stolen?

Even if you were a Christian, why would you worship an idol or celebrate Christmas if you're so against it? It's not like you have to talk about the Easter-Bunny to confess Jesus as Lord and that God resurrected him.

 

[JEDIYoda]

What do Catholics worship? God, Mary, the Pope? -- why are you showing your lack of knowledge about the Catholic faith?
All three of them? -- Hardly!
They talk about Mary and hold her higher than their "savior" Jesus. -- Umm no and you have no links to prove that they hold Mary higher than Jesus Christ!
Catholics do not worship Mary. They certainly hold her in high regard. But they worship Jesus Christ only. They acknowledge Mary as the mother of Jesus Christ, they pray to her to intercede on their behalf to God, as they would ask a friend to pray for them. Catholics also pray to the saints for help, but they do not worship the saints.
I see statues of Mary in front of Catholics' houses and have seen them even pray to mary. Are not prayers supposed to be directed to God? -- Christians ask other Christians to pray for them everyday.....Theyt are not praying to Mary they are asking Mary to intercede for them.....You are one confused person.

You have not researched the Catholic faith at all! You would know that Catholics do not worship Mary or the Pope!
There are some ignorant Catholics who do not know any better. With that said --

You are making judgement based on nothing you actually know about.
Even if you were Catholic previously you were not taught correct Catholic doctrine!

It is impossible to discuss subjects like this if you are dealing with somebody who just throws out any old misconception. You are misrepresenting the Catholic faith!

 

[Retro Rob]

You have not researched the Catholic faith at all! You would know that Catholics do not worship Mary or the Pope!
There are some ignorant Catholics who do not know any better. With that said --

You are making judgement based on nothing you actually know about.
Even if you were Catholic previously you were not taught correct Catholic doctrine!

It is impossible to discuss subjects like this if you are dealing with somebody who just throws out any old misconception. You are misrepresenting the Catholic faith!

I will admit, I did get a bit personal. From this point onward, you'll see links to my views.

Sorry, just not very happy with most of the Christian faith.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Sorry, just not very happy with most of the Christian faith.

I think this reflects a the sentiment of almost all Christians, as summed up in a quote often attributed to Gandhi "I Like your Christ, I don't like your Christians".

 

[Agent11]

James 2:14-26
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
Faith without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?[a] 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

This would be the most apt scripture for the initial discussion in my opinion.


-

The trinity is a trickier subject, being as it is usually a matter of traditional interpretations of a few scriptures.

Here are the main scriptures used to argue against the trinity.

Deuteronomy 6:4 (Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition)
4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord;[a]

Footnotes:

Deuteronomy 6:4 Or the Lord our God, the Lord is one Or the Lord is our God, the Lord is one Or the Lord is our God, the Lord alone.

Psalm 83:18
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
18 Let them know that thou alone,
whose name is the Lord,
art the Most High over all the earth.

John 17:3
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

Galatians 3:20
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
20 Now an intermediary implies more than one; but God is one.

Scriptures used to argue pro Trinity

Matthew 28:19
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

John 10:30
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
30 I and the Father are one.”

John 1:1
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.[a]

Footnotes:

1.1 John begins by giving his Gospel a theological background. By speaking at once of “the Word” he implies that his readers are familiar with the term. To Gentiles it indicated some form of divine revelation or self-expression. Jews would equate it with the divine Wisdom described in Proverbs, which already appears as something more than a divine quality and has some relationship with the visible world. In Sirach and Wisdom the idea is further developed. In the last-named book, Wisdom appears as a pre-existing person, taking part in the creation of the world and having a mission to reveal God to his creatures; cf. Wis 7.22–8.1.

Of course the entire thing is complicated by the fact that if you hold a viewpoint that is not in line with your denominations beliefs you are an apostate, so be sure to consult with your spiritual leaders before coming to too many conclusions if you want to stay in good standing with your church...

 

[JEDIYoda]

James 2:14-26
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
Faith without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?[a] 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

This would be the most apt scripture for the initial discussion in my opinion.


-

The trinity is a trickier subject, being as it is usually a matter of traditional interpretations of a few scriptures.

Here are the main scriptures used to argue against the trinity.

Deuteronomy 6:4 (Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition)
4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord;[a]

Footnotes:

Deuteronomy 6:4 Or the Lord our God, the Lord is one Or the Lord is our God, the Lord is one Or the Lord is our God, the Lord alone.

Psalm 83:18
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
18 Let them know that thou alone,
whose name is the Lord,
art the Most High over all the earth.

John 17:3
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

Galatians 3:20
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
20 Now an intermediary implies more than one; but God is one.

Scriptures used to argue pro Trinity

Matthew 28:19
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

John 10:30
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
30 I and the Father are one.”

John 1:1
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.[a]

Footnotes:

1.1 John begins by giving his Gospel a theological background. By speaking at once of “the Word” he implies that his readers are familiar with the term. To Gentiles it indicated some form of divine revelation or self-expression. Jews would equate it with the divine Wisdom described in Proverbs, which already appears as something more than a divine quality and has some relationship with the visible world. In Sirach and Wisdom the idea is further developed. In the last-named book, Wisdom appears as a pre-existing person, taking part in the creation of the world and having a mission to reveal God to his creatures; cf. Wis 7.22–8.1.

Of course the entire thing is complicated by the fact that if you hold a viewpoint that is not in line with your denominations beliefs you are an apostate, so be sure to consult with your spiritual leaders before coming to too many conclusions if you want to stay in good standing with your church...

already done post #13.....thx

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Just to address this quickly, I think its well-documented that immortality of the soul and Christmas are pagan teachings.

Documented where?

Excuse me for doing research, I know you guys are forbidden from questioning your leaders.

This is really not appropriate, especially when you are playing coy about what group or sect you yourself believe in.

I don't blame people for asking. In other threads you have repeatedly defended the bible, and now you're taking shots at Catholicism and Christianity in general. This does raise the question of exactly what group, if any, you belong to.

 

[JEDIYoda]

The "This is well documented" response has no bearing without the documentation being linked to.....

In fact that is like saying -- "everybody knows"....lololol

Plus that`s hardly a response to say something is well documented........
So you do not believe in the immortality of the soul....based on what?

Also when you post your responses or links you really need to understand that just because that is your opinion does not mean that others will not disagree with you and as such I have been in such discussions before concerning this subject and needless to say it is one where nobody wins....

Why does nobody win you might ask?

If we use the Bible as the only source of reference on this subject the best those who do not believe in the immortality of the soul can do is to say the Bible was not translated correctly.

The best those who believe in the immortality of the soul can do is say politely -- your wrong. In fact that could be an entirely new discussion point.

I have to get to work at the Nuclear power plant!!

 

[Dr. Zaus]

JediYoda:

What do we disagree on? I think we'd have a great, honest, conversation about it.


Interesting distinction, I think, made here between debate and discussion... We honestly tried to draw a discussion out of the OP and we had to settle for winning a debate against him. (though, I hope, some in the audience gained a useful thought or two).

 

[JEDIYoda]

JediYoda:

What do we disagree on? I think we'd have a great, honest, conversation about it.


Interesting distinction, I think, made here between debate and discussion... We honestly tried to draw a discussion out of the OP and we had to settle for winning a debate against him. (though, I hope, some in the audience gained a useful thought or two).

I do not believe we would disagree on anything!

It`s very difficult to have any reasonable discussion when the Op throws around his opinion as fact with no supporting documentation!

It`s very difficult to have a discussion about doctrine when the Op uses such terminology as "it`s well documented"; but does not provide anything more as in links....

We really did not discuss anything that had to do with what the scriptures say about or do not say about the Op`s concerns.....

Finally to post an opinion with out supporting evidence of some type IMO does not belong in a P & N discussion room....

It`s way to easy to discount what others believe by dismissing the other persons opinion as based on an improper translation of the scriptures.

It is obvious the Op is NOT really a student of the scriptures. If he was a student he would have posted more supporting documentation that does not rely soley on opinion.......

I am a student of nuclear physics......ask me anything -- I have an opinion on everything....lolol


Shalom