SagaLore
Elite Member
- Dec 18, 2001
- 24,036
- 21
- 81
Originally posted by: Nefrodite
well if you think about it, most people DO have religion forced on them. do you really think a young child has the intellectual maturity to choose a religion? and frankly even if they could, parents wouldn't allow it. if all children were kept away from religion until say age 16 or 18 then maybe you could say they really had a choice.
most of the time your just born into a religion
Religion is just a traditional doctrine. Accepting Jesus christ as your savior is not Religious. Giving 10 percent to a church and saying the lord's prayer is religious. See the difference?
Nobody can ever force you to accept Jesus, they can force you to repeat religious traditions like a drone, but when it comes to the actual point of it all, everyone still chooses for themself.
Religion is just a traditional doctrine. Accepting Jesus christ as your savior is not Religious. Giving 10 percent to a church and saying the lord's prayer is religious. See the difference?
Anyone can be brainwashed, especially if they're taught in childhood. Kids often go to church just because their parents make them. I believe forcing children to Christianity is equally as bad as brainwashing them to never date anyone with more than 2" of height difference.
Linflas
Lifer
- Jan 30, 2001
- 15,395
- 78
- 91
As far as I am concerned trying to force your religious beliefs on anyone is wrong period. That is not the same as discussing your religious beliefs with people and exposing them to your belief system. The best missionaries are the ones that help to alleviate suffering and while doing so expose people to the value system that led them to give of themselves in this way. If the people being helped want to know more they will ask but there is no reason to force them to believe anything.
I love discussions/arguments, be it religious, political, scientific or otherwise. But some people have a strange idea of a 'discussion'. If I go shopping on Saturday, have a headache, am in a bad mood, and need to visit several more shops before they close, I usually do not feel like hearing about 'how the lord will safe my soul if I ask him'. My knowledge of the Bible and Quran tend to be sufficient to be able to talk us into a deadlock, where the other person is not able to answer my questions, but doesn't want to admit him/her being wrong either, nor there being faults in his/her religious book.
P.S. There are quite a large number of Muslims around here, but not one has tried to convert me so far, only offered to introduce me to their imam when I showed interest in a fargoing discussion of the Quran. I do however get bothered quite often by all kinds of Christians who think it is their duty to try and convert me. Sometimes I am patient enough for a discussion, but most of the time I just tell them I'm not interested. Some even try to continue then
(Until you start about the errors in the Bible, or the similarities with the Quran, then the conversation tends to end pretty quickly)Worst are definately the ones thinking they should wake you up at 9-10 am on sunday... Greeting them in Arabic, then saying thank you but no tends to keep them away pretty much.
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
- 70,150
- 5
- 0
I partially disagree. I agree that you can take a person to church 5 x a week for 10 years and they may still not have accepted jesus but this depends on some unusual factors - like if you started me going to church now at my age.
If you take a kid from age 3-4 to church by the time they are 16 there is a very very strong chance they'll believe in Jesus as opposed to the average 16 year old who hasn't gone. They just begin to believe after a while.
SagaLore
Elite Member
- Dec 18, 2001
- 24,036
- 21
- 81
Originally posted by: Skyclad1uhm1
I love discussions/arguments, be it religious, political, scientific or otherwise. But some people have a strange idea of a 'discussion'. If I go shopping on Saturday, have a headache, am in a bad mood, and need to visit several more shops before they close, I usually do not feel like hearing about 'how the lord will safe my soul if I ask him'. My knowledge of the Bible and Quran tend to be sufficient to be able to talk us into a deadlock, where the other person is not able to answer my questions, but doesn't want to admit him/her being wrong either, nor there being faults in his/her religious book.
P.S. There are quite a large number of Muslims around here, but not one has tried to convert me so far, only offered to introduce me to their imam when I showed interest in a fargoing discussion of the Quran. I do however get bothered quite often by all kinds of Christians who think it is their duty to try and convert me. Sometimes I am patient enough for a discussion, but most of the time I just tell them I'm not interested. Some even try to continue then
Worst are definately the ones thinking they should wake you up at 9-10 am on sunday... Greeting them in Arabic, then saying thank you but no tends to keep them away pretty much.
A christian evangelical missionary is one radical form of christian. The mass majority of christians don't go out of their home-town to teach people about God let alone other countries.
I would rather be persued by an Evangelical than a Muslim with dynamite strapped to his/her chest. (acknowledging that a muslim bomber is their version of a radical)
I think people should be left to their own devices. If they are interested in religion, they should go out and do the research. There shouldn't be door-to-door religion salesmen.
amish
amish
stop trying to convert people and just let me be....like those "missions" people go on to convert other people...just chill out and let people live they want to live...sheesh
SagaLore
Elite Member
- Dec 18, 2001
- 24,036
- 21
- 81
In a perfect world that would be ideal. But in many countries, the government decides what religion it will be or not be, and ban the rest. For the longest time Christianity was banned from Russia... when Missionaries were finally able to get into the country, Russians didn't even know who Jesus was.
Now back to Missionaries going into Afghanistan. The Taliban forced everyone to be a certain type of Muslim. They've been told how evil everything else is. The missionaries are basically doing damage control. Of course they're on a quest to convert, but it certainly isn't going to hurt anyone - it's not like they're blowing themselves up to prove a point.
As was pointed out, the wording of the poll differs from the thread title.
I define "converting" in the way people mention exposing others to your religion. If it comes up as a topic of conversation, I'll talk about it. I'll tell you if you want to know more, feel free to ask. I'm willing to be a resource for you if you want to learn about or become more involved with my religion.
Also, if you go to an event sponsored by a religious organization, EXPECT TO BE MARKETED TO! If your friend mislead you into believing that the trip sponsored by a religious group to Six Flags or wherever just did it for kicks, be mad at your friend, not at their religion.
And, as someone who once headed a religious a cappella group, when you see a sign that says "FREE CHRISTIAN MUSIC AND FREE FOOD" know that you might get the sales pitch at least once.
I define "forcing" in the way that if you haven't asked, you haven't showed up voluntarily to an event, or you were mislead or coerced into going, you are being forced.
I knew a girl who would constantly evangelize to her roommate who wanted nothing to do with it. This girl would always be like "I'm worried for your soul, and I just wish you would listen so I can tell you about my personal saviour blah blah blah."
She made this girl's life a living hell in the name of God, and she couldn't even see that in her attempts to "bring her into the fold" that she was actually pushing her farther away ARGHHHHHHH!
Converting? Good.
FORCING? Bad.
I will relate 2 experiences/thoughts I had as the head of this Christian performance group:
The first is one of the primary reasons I got out of the business, which is what I consider to be false advertising.
The sign above advertises free music and food. We make no false representation that the music is "religious" in content, but one of things that was great about Christian A Cappella is that non-Christians will show up to the concert just for the opportunity to see a talented group and hear some great music for free.
These people are NOT interested in our message.
Therfore, it was my feeling that our message should be in our music. We also did some skits that were funny. We read a Bible verse associated with a song. That should be the extent of it if we're doing a CONCERT.
A lot of the other people felt that we should also do an "altar call" sort of thing where someone reads Bible verses, talks about their life as a Christian, usually cries *UGH* and then says why YOU should join the club.
I didn't think there was any place for this in a concert that is advertised as just a concert. Let the message be in the music. Talk to people as they munch on cookies after the show.
They just couldn't give up on banging the message so hard.
The other thought was when the Jewish Student Union planned an "interfaith" Thanksgiving service where reps from the "Big Three" religions all worship together for a bit.
My thoughts about the pointlessness of 3 religions who are fundamentally at odds with each other having an artificial and halfassed worship session aside, we had done it before and it was actually a fun, educational experience.
I'm not sure what the intentions of other groups are going into something like this. I got the impression the Jewish Union did it because it was a cool thing to do and a way for their org to make a mark on the greater campus.
I got the impression that the Islamic Society did it b/c they had the least recognition and this was a great opportunity to show others that they aren't nuts.
I'm not sure why the other 3 Christian groups were interested. Mine does it because what's the point of singing group if you don't sing?
I suspect others saw it as an opportunity to evangelize.
Anyway, there were 2 planning meetings b/c reps from 4 Xian groups plus Islamic and Jewish groups couldn't all meet at the same time. At the first meeting, the one I was at, the Prez of Jewish Union said--since we don't want to have a holy war, we have in the past refrained from being too religion-specific in mentioning Jesus, Allah, etc, and we think that works well.
Does anyone have objections to not mentioning any specific deities and just using the generic "God" if you need to?
No objections.
A couple days later I learned that the service had been cancelled after unnamed Christian groups announced that they were going to preach about Jesus and you'd better put up.
So Jewish Union cancelled the event.
I announced the cancellation to my disappointed group.
I then provided a warning that I asked them to always remember:
Don't allow your overwhelming urge to evangelize to destroy your opportunity to evangelize.
It's sad that representatives of that group could have kept their traps shut and did plenty of evangelism after the service was over and everyone was hanging out.
Instead they insisted on loudly proclaiming the name of Jesus and in doing so lost the opportunity to proclaim His name at all.
Nice work, idiots.
Sorry so long post...my position in that choir caused me to give a lot of thought to where one draws the line between selling and forcing.
I define "converting" in the way people mention exposing others to your religion. If it comes up as a topic of conversation, I'll talk about it. I'll tell you if you want to know more, feel free to ask. I'm willing to be a resource for you if you want to learn about or become more involved with my religion.
Also, if you go to an event sponsored by a religious organization, EXPECT TO BE MARKETED TO! If your friend mislead you into believing that the trip sponsored by a religious group to Six Flags or wherever just did it for kicks, be mad at your friend, not at their religion.
And, as someone who once headed a religious a cappella group, when you see a sign that says "FREE CHRISTIAN MUSIC AND FREE FOOD" know that you might get the sales pitch at least once.
I define "forcing" in the way that if you haven't asked, you haven't showed up voluntarily to an event, or you were mislead or coerced into going, you are being forced.
I knew a girl who would constantly evangelize to her roommate who wanted nothing to do with it. This girl would always be like "I'm worried for your soul, and I just wish you would listen so I can tell you about my personal saviour blah blah blah."
She made this girl's life a living hell in the name of God, and she couldn't even see that in her attempts to "bring her into the fold" that she was actually pushing her farther away ARGHHHHHHH!
Converting? Good.
FORCING? Bad.
I will relate 2 experiences/thoughts I had as the head of this Christian performance group:
The first is one of the primary reasons I got out of the business, which is what I consider to be false advertising.
The sign above advertises free music and food. We make no false representation that the music is "religious" in content, but one of things that was great about Christian A Cappella is that non-Christians will show up to the concert just for the opportunity to see a talented group and hear some great music for free.
These people are NOT interested in our message.
Therfore, it was my feeling that our message should be in our music. We also did some skits that were funny. We read a Bible verse associated with a song. That should be the extent of it if we're doing a CONCERT.
A lot of the other people felt that we should also do an "altar call" sort of thing where someone reads Bible verses, talks about their life as a Christian, usually cries *UGH* and then says why YOU should join the club.
I didn't think there was any place for this in a concert that is advertised as just a concert. Let the message be in the music. Talk to people as they munch on cookies after the show.
They just couldn't give up on banging the message so hard.
The other thought was when the Jewish Student Union planned an "interfaith" Thanksgiving service where reps from the "Big Three" religions all worship together for a bit.
My thoughts about the pointlessness of 3 religions who are fundamentally at odds with each other having an artificial and halfassed worship session aside, we had done it before and it was actually a fun, educational experience.
I'm not sure what the intentions of other groups are going into something like this. I got the impression the Jewish Union did it because it was a cool thing to do and a way for their org to make a mark on the greater campus.
I got the impression that the Islamic Society did it b/c they had the least recognition and this was a great opportunity to show others that they aren't nuts.
I'm not sure why the other 3 Christian groups were interested. Mine does it because what's the point of singing group if you don't sing?
I suspect others saw it as an opportunity to evangelize.
Anyway, there were 2 planning meetings b/c reps from 4 Xian groups plus Islamic and Jewish groups couldn't all meet at the same time. At the first meeting, the one I was at, the Prez of Jewish Union said--since we don't want to have a holy war, we have in the past refrained from being too religion-specific in mentioning Jesus, Allah, etc, and we think that works well.
Does anyone have objections to not mentioning any specific deities and just using the generic "God" if you need to?
No objections.
A couple days later I learned that the service had been cancelled after unnamed Christian groups announced that they were going to preach about Jesus and you'd better put up.
So Jewish Union cancelled the event.
I announced the cancellation to my disappointed group.
I then provided a warning that I asked them to always remember:
Don't allow your overwhelming urge to evangelize to destroy your opportunity to evangelize.
It's sad that representatives of that group could have kept their traps shut and did plenty of evangelism after the service was over and everyone was hanging out.
Instead they insisted on loudly proclaiming the name of Jesus and in doing so lost the opportunity to proclaim His name at all.
Nice work, idiots.
Sorry so long post...my position in that choir caused me to give a lot of thought to where one draws the line between selling and forcing.
exactly... it is God's people's mission to share Jesus' love.... however, we're also taught that if they're not interested, or just don't care.. leave them alone and move on.... don't keep on bothering them, calling them, or going to their house to "force" them into it because if they've said no once, thats probably how they feel... instead just like em and be their friend and hope that maybe someday they will care and then you'll have your chance to share, when they come to you... until then, just be a friend and a good example of a good christian.. this is how i feel things should work...
however for international ministries, there is nothing wrong w/ it.. there are many many millions of people who don't even know who Jesus is.. who has never even heard of them.. I think its only fair to at least introduce the idea to them and let them decide.... ultimately its not going to be the Christians who change them but God....
Red Dawn
Elite Member
- Jun 4, 2001
- 57,529
- 3
- 0
It's just as annoying. I'm glad I have sprinklers in my front yard that are controlled on the inside or I would have to walk outside to turn them on the assholes who come knocking at my door with the book of bullsh!t in their hands trying to tell me I'm going to hell unless I become subservient to their Religious Dogma.
I think the Rastafarians have the best way of trying to convert people. They get them stoned first then they preach in Pidgeon English (you have to be stoned to understand them) If that doesn't work they then beat the sh!t out of you and take your wallet
If a Christian evangelist is a radical form of Christianity, what are the ETA and RealIRA? Saints doing good work?
I don't think I'd really notice the difference between being blown up by the ETA or a Muslim terrorist.
I have nothing against people who offer it as a point of conversation in a public area as long as they don't get pushy, but my home is my property, and unless I invite them I am not interested in having someone at the door trying to make me see why their opinion is the only correct one.
To me discussing religion is the same as thinking about quantum mechanics or playing Wolfenstein: a way to pass my time, to enjoy myself. But just like I don't always feel like playing Wolfenstein, if I don't feel like a religious discussion I do not want someone to try and convince me of their 'truth'.
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