Do you think there is strength in diversity and something that should be sought

[piasabird]

I work at a community college and they did something different one year. They put posters of people with tattoos up all over campus. I felt ashamed to even work here. It sickened me to have to see that up on the wall. If you want a Tattoo go get one. However, it is just a stupid Idea and I think it makes people look gross and scary. My advice is dont get a tattoo. I feel we received a beautiful body at birth and we should just accept that, not use it like a coloring book. Maybe I am just a traditionalist.

 

[Sunburn74]

Absolutely sexism is responsible for men being underrepresented in early childhood education, nursing, and other female dominated fields.

I doubt this. I would say if you were a male nursing school candidate you're much more likely to get in than an equally qualified female candidate mostly for diversity purposes which may presumably benefit patients in the future.

As to why a lot of men don't like to go into nursing is a deep and complicated question with an answer that could be a thesis paper for a PhD candidate. However discrimination at the level of entrance to these schools is not the reason. If anything men have the advantage at that point. It's as complicated a question as asking why women seem to like kids a lot more than men do.

 

[bshole]

We have some where closing in on half of our division being women - engineers or other tech degrees.

About half of my supervisors have been women and two were African American women.

Here’s a shot of mission control from 10 years ago. It’s not all white guys with skinny ties and pocket protectors anymore..

I've been in embedded software engineering for 25 years and have met hundreds of other embedded software engineers. I have never met a black embedded software engineer. Do you think this is a midwest thing, an embedded software thing, a heavy equipment manufacturing thing or a racism thing? You should know that we make significantly less money than the sexy software engineers on the West Coast that create cutting edge retail products. Our field is microscopic compared to that field.

 

[Sunburn74]

I've been in embedded software engineering for 25 years and have met hundreds of other embedded software engineers. I have never met a black embedded software engineer. Do you think this is a midwest thing, an embedded software thing, a heavy equipment manufacturing thing or a racism thing? You should know that we make significantly less money than the sexy software engineers on the West Coast that create cutting edge retail products. Our field is microscopic compared to that field.

Multiple factors but you should look at the general racial breakdown for your town first.

 

[Grooveriding]

Of course it is.

I doubt this. I would say if you were a male nursing school candidate you're much more likely to get in than an equally qualified female candidate mostly for diversity purposes which may presumably benefit patients in the future.

As to why a lot of men don't like to go into nursing is a deep and complicated question with an answer that could be a thesis paper for a PhD candidate. However discrimination at the level of entrance to these schools is not the reason. If anything men have the advantage at that point. It's as complicated a question as asking why women seem to like kids a lot more than men do.

I don't know about the US demographics, but in Canada, nursing is seeing a significant uptick in males going into the field. Reasons being, in my opinion, it becoming more acceptable to be a man in the field as more men take it up, and there is a real shortage of nurses right now and the pay/benefits are quite good for a 4 year university degree; 70-80K start, excellent benefits and a pathway to six figures with some years of experience put in.

Conversely, physicians are seeing more females moving into the field. For the past few years there have been an equal number of women as men getting admitted into medical school.

This thread is sad. The word diversity has been demonized, when the reality is that humans are quite diverse. How is there not value in coming together? Why cut yourself off from a significant portion of human resources available? Racism and bigotry tends to be passed on like a hereditary disease from parents to children, alternately it comes from ignorance, generally due to lack of exposure to anything different. This is why I expect it's more prevalent in rural areas, people tend to grow up seeing one skin colour, one religion etc. And are easily led to believe nonsense about the 'other',

 

[fskimospy]

I work at a community college and they did something different one year. They put posters of people with tattoos up all over campus. I felt ashamed to even work here. It sickened me to have to see that up on the wall. If you want a Tattoo go get one. However, it is just a stupid Idea and I think it makes people look gross and scary. My advice is dont get a tattoo. I feel we received a beautiful body at birth and we should just accept that, not use it like a coloring book. Maybe I am just a traditionalist.

This post reminds me of this:

 

[Sunburn74]

Of course it is.


I don't know about the US demographics, but in Canada, nursing is seeing a significant uptick in males going into the field. Reasons being, in my opinion, it becoming more acceptable to be a man in the field as more men take it up, and there is a real shortage of nurses right now and the pay/benefits are quite good for a 4 year university degree; 70-80K start, excellent benefits and a pathway to six figures with some years of experience put in.

Nursing in the US pays extremely well for the hours worked and training involved. I know some nurses that work 3 days a week and pull 150K. I recently read a story about a nurse that would fly to SF from Ohio and work one week a month there living in a hotel. That one week of pay in SF dollars allowed him to make more than 100K a year and to live lavishly in OH.

The uptick is as you said a recognition of this by men and decreasing stigmas with regard to make nurses. However in the US if you are a guy applying you are more competitive than an equally qualified woman because of the lack of diversity in the field. However why the field is still so slanted towards women is a complex one. Even in medicine something like 80-90% of pediatricians and ob/gyns are women despite 50% of all med school students being women (what's odd is the dept heads and general leadership of pediatrics and gynecology depts in hospitals are almost always male despite males being a minority in the field). Also something like 90% of cardiologists are male. It's not that men are intentionally discriminated against for these fields or women. I know for a fact in ob and pediatrics if you are a guy you are a shoo in. The reasons for these gender based segregation are very very complex and probably have origins even well before ever getting in to medical school (ie deeper societal influences at play)

 

[mect]

I doubt this. I would say if you were a male nursing school candidate you're much more likely to get in than an equally qualified female candidate mostly for diversity purposes which may presumably benefit patients in the future.

As to why a lot of men don't like to go into nursing is a deep and complicated question with an answer that could be a thesis paper for a PhD candidate. However discrimination at the level of entrance to these schools is not the reason. If anything men have the advantage at that point. It's as complicated a question as asking why women seem to like kids a lot more than men do.

Likelihood of being accepted is only one small piece. While it certainly isn't as bad today as 30 years ago, there is still a negative social stigma associated with men entering these fields. I don't reject that there's also a biological component to these discrepancies, and agree we don't need to try to force men and women into fields purely for the sake of increasing diversity, we also can't ignore cultural influences and pretend they don't exist.

 

[UglyCasanova]

This thread is sad. The word diversity has been demonized, when the reality is that humans are quite diverse. How is there not value in coming together? Why cut yourself off from a significant portion of human resources available? Racism and bigotry tends to be passed on like a hereditary disease from parents to children, alternately it comes from ignorance, generally due to lack of exposure to anything different. This is why I expect it's more prevalent in rural areas, people tend to grow up seeing one skin colour, one religion etc. And are easily led to believe nonsense about the 'other',

Humans are diverse but I question whether a diversity of ideas is actually what is being sought.

 

[realibrad]

I work at a community college and they did something different one year. They put posters of people with tattoos up all over campus. I felt ashamed to even work here. It sickened me to have to see that up on the wall. If you want a Tattoo go get one. However, it is just a stupid Idea and I think it makes people look gross and scary. My advice is dont get a tattoo. I feel we received a beautiful body at birth and we should just accept that, not use it like a coloring book. Maybe I am just a traditionalist.

You were sickened to see tattoos? Is that like feeling sick when seeing cotton balls?

Do you mind expanding on this or maybe pm'ing me?

 

[realibrad]

Of course it is.


I don't know about the US demographics, but in Canada, nursing is seeing a significant uptick in males going into the field. Reasons being, in my opinion, it becoming more acceptable to be a man in the field as more men take it up, and there is a real shortage of nurses right now and the pay/benefits are quite good for a 4 year university degree; 70-80K start, excellent benefits and a pathway to six figures with some years of experience put in.

Conversely, physicians are seeing more females moving into the field. For the past few years there have been an equal number of women as men getting admitted into medical school.

This thread is sad. The word diversity has been demonized, when the reality is that humans are quite diverse. How is there not value in coming together? Why cut yourself off from a significant portion of human resources available? Racism and bigotry tends to be passed on like a hereditary disease from parents to children, alternately it comes from ignorance, generally due to lack of exposure to anything different. This is why I expect it's more prevalent in rural areas, people tend to grow up seeing one skin colour, one religion etc. And are easily led to believe nonsense about the 'other',

Define diversity, and then tell me where that diversity stems from. Do you find utility in hiring a few pedos to your company to get some diversity?

 

[brycejones]

I work at a community college and they did something different one year. They put posters of people with tattoos up all over campus. I felt ashamed to even work here. It sickened me to have to see that up on the wall. If you want a Tattoo go get one. However, it is just a stupid Idea and I think it makes people look gross and scary. My advice is dont get a tattoo. I feel we received a beautiful body at birth and we should just accept that, not use it like a coloring book. Maybe I am just a traditionalist.

Get the fuck over yourself.

 

[Sunburn74]

Likelihood of being accepted is only one small piece. While it certainly isn't as bad today as 30 years ago, there is still a negative social stigma associated with men entering these fields. I don't reject that there's also a biological component to these discrepancies, and agree we don't need to try to force men and women into fields purely for the sake of increasing diversity, we also can't ignore cultural influences and pretend they don't exist.

Social stigma is definitely a thing but that affects probably likelihood of application not so much likelihood of getting in.

You also have to consider what options men have as alternatives to nursing as well as the skill set nursing requires and how that complements or contrasts social norms handed down to young developing men. It's a very very complicated issue.

I don't think it's right to force people into fields they don't want to go into but certainly we should assess why these discrepancies exist. Everything is connected and often these issues have more widespread connection to other issues. Also you have to wonder if fields are truly developing as they should be if they are lacking essentially half the potential talent and creativity pool. There are lots of things pediatricians a female heavy field have figured out that adult medicine doctors are just realizing and vice versa.

 

[Atreus21]

Yes, sexism is likely to blame for quite a bit of that. There are gender roles that people are steered towards in society regardless of their actual aptitude and this is WELL established by the empirical research. I mean do you really think women are massively overrepresented as secretaries because they like taking notes and typing?

I really don't understand this. That people don't work according to their aptitude is proof of absolutely nothing. I've a strong aptitude to music, as attested by my two older siblings, both professional musicians, yet I didn't pursue a career in it because it didn't interest me despite my talent. The same goes for my wife who, despite copious praise from her superiors, peers, and patients, has a real aptitude for nursing yet is leaving the field in general because she detests it.

Societal pressure may play a part in how people choose their jobs, but so certainly, and certainly more so, do people's own interests.

To answer your question, I think women are overrepresented as secretaries because they prefer it much more than men do.

Do you think men are overrepresented as those who shovel the snow from the walk because they like shoveling snow? Or getting nasty and dirty on oil rigs because they like getting nasty and dirty?

It's baffling that you would be so blind. I mean you are honestly trying to argue that there were almost no black quarterbacks at all in the NFL until recently because black people just didn't like playing the most prestigious and highest paid position. That's /facepalm worthy. You can't actually believe that sort of ridiculous nonsense. As for why black people significantly outnumber whites in football, they do so in most sports. This is likely primarily due to the incentives offered to them throughout life and yes, racism is a likely component.

I'm sorry but I am blind to what I can't possibly see. For you, there doesn't seem to be any racial disparity for which racism isn't the very first and primary explanation. If your theory about quarterbacks is true, it would follow that whites would be discouraged from punters and field-goal kicker positions since they're at the very bottom of the prestige-and-pay totem pole. Yet whites dominate the kicking position by even greater margins than they do quarterbacks. How do you reconcile that?

This is an obvious straw man. No one has ever argued they should be exactly the same.

Then what would the racial makeup of the NFL have to be, or the sexual makeup of those in secretarial positions, before you thought the accusation of racism or sexism was unjustified?

Well then I guess you have no problem with diversity initiatives then because sometimes increasing diversity for its own sake makes sense?

No, just the opposite. I think increasing diversity for its own sake, as I said at the outset, will lead us to injustice. Just like affirmative action does. I'm opposed to prejudging people based on the color of their skin.

 

[fskimospy]

I really don't understand this. That people don't work according to their aptitude is proof of absolutely nothing. I've a strong aptitude to music, as attested by my two older siblings, both professional musicians, yet I didn't pursue a career in it because it didn't interest me despite my talent. The same goes for my wife who, despite copious praise from her superiors, peers, and patients, has a real aptitude for nursing yet is leaving the field in general because she detests it.

Societal pressure may play a part in how people choose their jobs, but so certainly, and certainly more so, do people's own interests.

To answer your question, I think women are overrepresented as secretaries because they prefer office work to blue collar work.

Do you think men are overrepresented as those who shovel the snow from the walk because they like shoveling snow? Or getting nasty and dirty on oil rigs because they like getting nasty and dirty?

That makes no sense as if they simply preferred office work to blue collar work then they should be at least somewhat equally over-represented in all office work. They are not, and it's not even close.

Any other explanations?

I'm sorry but I am blind to what I can't possibly see. For you, there doesn't seem to be any racial disparity for which racism isn't the very first and primary explanation.

Straw man. You're better than that.

If your theory about quarterbacks hold true, it would follow that whites would be discouraged from punters and field-goal kicker positions. Yet whites dominate the kicking position by even greater margins than they do quarterbacks. How do you reconcile that?

This is also not a logical statement. Just because white people are encouraged to be quarterbacks does not mean they would be discouraged from every other position. It's pretty telling that those two positions fit into the 'thought' bucket much better than the 'brawn' bucket though, which is kind of proving my point.

I would really like to hear you actually attempt to explain the massive disparity in the racial makeup of quarterbacks without racism. Are white people just more capable quarterbacks? Is it an incredible feat of probability? What?

Then what would the racial makeup of the NFL have to be, or the sexual makeup of those in secretarial positions, before you thought the accusation of racism or sexism was unjustified?

I have no idea, but certainly far, far less disparate than it is now. As I've said, I would love to hear a merit based argument from you on why these disparities exist. All I've seen are deflections.

No, just the opposite. I think increasing diversity for its own sake, as I said at the outset, will lead us to injustice.

So even if I grant your point you're fine with injustice when it comes to discriminating against women but against it when it comes to increasing diversity in workplaces. That's pretty hypocritical, wouldn't you say?

Finally, as I asked earlier can you identify one area in current society where minorities are disadvantaged that you believe that disadvantage is due to racism? Just one?

 

[jackstar7]

Humans are diverse but I question whether a diversity of ideas is actually what is being sought.

Without any context, I'll say it is not.

The diversity of ideas comes within a context. All ideas should never be treated equally, or we get more Nazi shit that needs to be punched.

They also are generated, in part, by different life experiences. One source of a different life experience is a different skin color.


Can you yet elaborate what it is that you want to know or understand within this topic yet? You've remained vague and I suspect it is purposefully so until some nugget is spoken and then you're going to pounce. If that's not your game, you should know it is how it looks.

 

[obidamnkenobi]

Of course it is. That's the point. Sometimes sexism makes sense. You don't throw a young attractive woman into a remote and isolated location populated entirely by men who've been away from civilization for several months and expect no disruptions.

Wow.. Sexism "makes sense".. Because men can't keep their dicks in their pants women should be punished be being denied jobs. Those poor, poor men. Nice. You couldn't make this up. I guess much of Sharia law also makes sense then

 

[Paladin3]

I will admit I only read the thread topic and none of the conversation but still want to chime in.

There is no intrinsic strength that automatically comes with diversity unless each individual is also highly competent. There may very well be benefit from having individuals of varying backgrounds, but it shouldn't come at the expense of choosing less qualified individuals for the team. Such choices should be blind to color, gender and such when being made.

If we assume all races and genders to be equal, then we should naturally have diversity roughly equal to the population candidates are chosen from. I'm not sure if this happens in practice so with best intentions we attempt to rig the system to be "fair" which is so subjective we get ourselves in trouble, e.g. senseless quotas.

Is there strength in diversity? Generally yes, sometimes no. That's why we have to use reasonable judgement rather than assuming an artificial quota is right in all cases, and at the same time guard against unintentional discrimination.

 

[Atreus21]

That makes no sense as if they simply preferred office work to blue collar work then they should be at least somewhat equally over-represented in all office work. They are not, and it's not even close.

Not seeing your point here. Why do you think women choose secretarial work much more often then men do?

This is also not a logical statement. Just because white people are encouraged to be quarterbacks does not mean they would be discouraged from every other position. It's pretty telling that those two positions fit into the 'thought' bucket much better than the 'brawn' bucket though, which is kind of proving my point. I would really like to hear you actually attempt to explain the massive disparity in the racial makeup of quarterbacks without racism. Are white people just more capable quarterbacks? Is it an incredible feat of probability? What?

Are blacks more capable running backs and wide receivers? What about defensive linemen?

Do you really think that NFL coaches and managers conspire to keep blacks out of the QB position? Or is it more likely that they hire the best they can and let the racial chips fall where they may? Seriously, which do you think is more likely?

I have no idea, but certainly far, far less disparate than it is now. As I've said, I would love to hear a merit based argument from you on why these disparities exist. All I've seen are deflections.

Less disparate? Blacks make of 13% of the US population but 16% of starting NFL quarterbacks, 22% of NFL coaches, and 70% of NFL players overall. Jesus Christ. The notion that it's all about race is ridiculous.

And deflections? Most of my argument here has been either a direct answer to your question (people go where their interests lie) or incredulity that you'll countenance no other answer than racism.

So even if I grant your point you're fine with injustice when it comes to discriminating against women but against it when it comes to increasing diversity in workplaces. That's pretty hypocritical, wouldn't you say?

I'm fine with discriminating against anyone when done for practical and defensible reasons, such as in my earlier example.

Finally, as I asked earlier can you identify one area in current society where minorities are disadvantaged that you believe that disadvantage is due to racism? Just one?

You asked that earlier? I must've missed it.

If you're asking to identify general areas in which racism is predominant, no I can't, because I don't believe it is. Show me an example, and tell me why it's clearly due to racism, and not just the natural effects of free people freely choosing the occupations that interest them.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Without any context, I'll say it is not.

The diversity of ideas comes within a context. All ideas should never be treated equally, or we get more Nazi shit that needs to be punched.

They also are generated, in part, by different life experiences. One source of a different life experience is a different skin color.


Can you yet elaborate what it is that you want to know or understand within this topic yet? You've remained vague and I suspect it is purposefully so until some nugget is spoken and then you're going to pounce. If that's not your game, you should know it is how it looks.

What sort of context and would that apply in a societal/government setting as well as in business?

I would argue that different socioeconomic backgrounds provide a much more distinct variance in life experiences than anything else to be honest. An upper middle-class white and black guy are going to think more similarly to each other than an upper middle-class white guy and a lower class white guy. Should we use economic background rather than race or gender to create the melting pot of diversity?

As far as my hidden agenda it's 8 pages in and you haven't said the magic word yet so I'm not ready to pounce. Rest assured though I'm being intentionally obtuse in order to snare you in my trap.

 

[Atreus21]

Wow.. Sexism "makes sense".. Because men can't keep their dicks in their pants women should be punished be being denied jobs. Those poor, poor men. Nice. You couldn't make this up. I guess much of Sharia law also makes sense then

If a woman is dead set on choosing an occupation that will put her in harm's way unnecessarily, there's good reason to deny it to her. Same goes for men.

If I were hiring for the position of admin assistant to Harvey Weinstein, I'd feel it incumbent upon me to make sure I hire a man or very ugly old lady.

 

[Paladin3]

Wow.. Sexism "makes sense".. Because men can't keep their dicks in their pants women should be punished be being denied jobs. Those poor, poor men. Nice. You couldn't make this up. I guess much of Sharia law also makes sense then

STFU with the Sharia law BS.

You are ignoring human nature if you don't think something like this, in at least some circumstances, could cause a lot of trouble. We sometimes separate men and women in extreme situations, mostly because men are animals, not because women are incompetent.

In a perfect world I would agree anyone should be eligible for any job based on qualifications alone. Guess which world we live in? One where some men can't keep their dicks in their pants and some women try to get by on looks and sexuality alone.

I too look for the day when gender is a moot point and everything is integrated, but we culturally and biologically aren't there yet.

 

[realibrad]

I will admit I only read the thread topic and none of the conversation but still want to chime in.

There is no intrinsic strength that automatically comes with diversity unless each individual is also highly competent. There may very well be benefit from having individuals of varying backgrounds, but it shouldn't come at the expense of choosing less qualified individuals for the team. Such choices should be blind to color, gender and such when being made.

If we assume all races and genders to be equal, then we should naturally have diversity roughly equal to the population candidates are chosen from. I'm not sure if this happens in practice so with best intentions we attempt to rig the system to be "fair" which is so subjective we get ourselves in trouble, e.g. senseless quotas.

Is there strength in diversity? Generally yes, sometimes no. That's why we have to use reasonable judgement rather than assuming an artificial quota is right in all cases, and at the same time guard against unintentional discrimination.

You... you take that shit and you get out of here right now! Can't you see people are trying to signal the morality of their positions? God, how selfish of you!

 

[realibrad]

STFU with the Sharia law BS.

You are ignoring human nature if you don't think something like this, in at least some circumstances, could cause a lot of trouble. We sometimes separate men and women in extreme situations, mostly because men are animals, not because women are incompetent.

In a perfect world I would agree anyone should be eligible for any job based on qualifications alone. Guess which world we live in? One where some men can't keep their dicks in their pants and some women try to get by on looks and sexuality alone.

I too look for the day when gender is a moot point and everything is integrated, but we culturally and biologically aren't there yet.

Holy shit you turned quick. Men are animals and need to be kept away from women! Just wow.

 

[Paladin3]

Holy shit you turned quick. Men are animals and need to be kept away from women! Just wow.

Not all men. Some men. Don't go all absolutist on me. Most men are good and treat women with respect, but a bunch don't. We have a huge domestic violence problem in the world that pretty much proves my point.