do you think the dreamcast had better graphics than the PS2?

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JeffMD

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2002
2,026
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DC was def the underpowered system. PS2 needed a year to get its feet but when you compare sequels like soul calibure 2 and 3, they were way above what the original was.

The dreamcast was first on the scene of the sony/ms generation and the graphics wowed us for the first time, so that stays in our memory. But PS2 pushes ahead with experienced programing. Its funny, the ps2 even managed to do some shader like tricks (check out the water in xenosaga 3) thanks to being able to directly draw to the image buffer. Not really a match for nintendo and xbox though because both featured real shader and bumpmap tech.
 

Oyeve

Lifer
Oct 18, 1999
22,043
875
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The Gamecube had better graphics than the PS2. PS2 from that gen had the worse graphics, IMO, but they had the best game lineup.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
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DC > PS2 in terms of visual fidelity.

I've programmed both.

PS2 has 4MB VRAM.

With depth, front, and back buffer @ 32 bit and 640x480 to make the problem apparent:

3MB of 4MB used from frame buffer and Z buffer leave 1MB for textures.

If you use the PS2 properly you don't pull a PC and try to stuff all your textures in VRAM at once, you take advantage of the PS2s streaming architecture and MASSIVE bus bandwidth and use ALL available texture RAM for one texture since you can reload very fast over the bus. To minimize stalls you'd split that 1MB into 2x512k buffers: active texture being used (read) by GS for the current display list, and the next texture currently being uploaded (written) asynchronously by DMA(double buffering texture RAM).

So 512k textures.

Dreamcast has 16 MB VRAM. 640x480x4x3 = 3MB but wait, no depth buffer so lets call it 2MB.

So 14MB left. In place of depth buffer PVR uses display lists and tile bins that have to be allocated in VRAM for the PVR to use. So 1MB maybe?

Still have 13 MB texture RAM vs PS2 double buffered 1MB.

PS2 often uses 8/16 bit textures and such to maximize VRAM, so you get the characteristic PS2 mach banding, and muddy look. The CRTC could read the frame buffer from two addresses and blend them giving you crude anti aliasing and smoothing out the limited texture color depth, which is why you get the murky look of PS2 games vs vibrant DC games.

DC = better color depth, texturing, etc. strictly due to available VRAM.

PS2 = much higher geometry processing and raw fill rate. GS is primative but it had obscene fill rate due to an unheard of at the time 8192 bit bus and something like 16-32 pixels per clock. But all that bandwidth is constrained to moving packets of small data at very high speed, and by small I mean 8/16 bit textures. No way to get around that. Geometry (eg vertex and polygon count): purpose built VUs would probably dwarf the SH4s when programmed properly.

Oh I also forgot to factor mipmapping which effectively cuts texture RAM in half again, so PS2 in this example would be limited to 256k for the original texture.

640x480p was pretty much the unattainable 1080p of the day for consoles and was seldom used, but greatly exaggerates and demonstrates the PS2s memory constraints.
 
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smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
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One of the things I remember was the PS2 was terrible for 2D games like fighters so all the best ones were on Dreamcast.

Considering the Dreamcast was literally a NAOMI board with a CD Rom drive, all the Capcom fighters were arcade perfect for the most part. It even had an official licensed, Japanese part using arcade stick.


I think, given a longer life, the DC would have outshined the PS2 in graphics. However, Sega's failures were pretty much written in stone by the time they launched anyway.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
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DC > PS2 in terms of visual fidelity. I've programmed both. PS2 has 4MB VRAM. With depth, front, and back buffer @ 32 bit and 640x480 to make the problem apparent: 3MB of 4MB used from frame buffer and Z buffer leave 1MB for textures. If you use the PS2 properly you don't pull a PC and try to stuff all your textures in VRAM at once, you take advantage of the PS2s streaming architecture and MASSIVE bus bandwidth and use ALL available texture RAM for one texture since you can reload very fast over the bus. To minimize stalls you'd split that 1MB into 2x512k buffers: active texture being used (read) by GS for the current display list, and the next texture currently being uploaded (written) asynchronously by DMA(double buffering texture RAM). So 512k textures. Dreamcast has 16 MB VRAM. 640x480x4x3 = 3MB but wait, no depth buffer so lets call it 2MB. So 14MB left. In place of depth buffer PVR uses display lists and tile bins that have to be allocated in VRAM for the PVR to use. So 1MB maybe? Still have 13 MB texture RAM vs PS2 double buffered 1MB. PS2 often uses 8/16 bit textures and such to maximize VRAM, so you get the characteristic PS2 mach banding, and muddy look. The CRTC could read the frame buffer from two addresses and blend them giving you crude anti aliasing and smoothing out the limited texture color depth, which is why you get the murky look of PS2 games vs vibrant DC games. DC = better color depth, texturing, etc. strictly due to available VRAM. PS2 = much higher geometry processing and raw fill rate. GS is primative but it had obscene fill rate due to an unheard of at the time 8192 bit bus and something like 16-32 pixels per clock. But all that bandwidth is constrained to moving packets of small data at very high speed, and by small I mean 8/16 bit textures. No way to get around that. Geometry (eg vertex and polygon count): purpose built VUs would probably dwarf the SH4s when programmed properly. Oh I also forgot to factor mipmapping which effectively cuts texture RAM in half again, so PS2 in this example would be limited to 256k for the original texture. 640x480p was pretty much the unattainable 1080p of the day for consoles and was seldom used, but greatly exaggerates and demonstrates the PS2s memory constraints.
i dont understand 100% of what you are talking about, but +1.:) all the smart people called the first two playstations the Piece of Shit and the Piece of Shit 2 because that is all they were compared to what Sega made.
 

MentalIlness

Platinum Member
Nov 22, 2009
2,383
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I know this isnt a Gamecube thread, but...

I remember reading years back "looking for the article again" that somehow "I cant remember how either" that they tried running F-Zero GX on the Playstation 2, or something to that nature, and no matter what they did, it just wasn't powerful enough to run the game. I am not saying they got it to run on the PS2, What I am saying is....they stated : The Playstation 2 hardware would not be capable to run F-Zero GX. Based on the tracks or whatever and the fast movement.

Im looking for the article, as it was a very good read.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
i dont understand 100% of what you are talking about, but +1.:) all the smart people called the first two playstations the Piece of Shit and the Piece of Shit 2 because that is all they were compared to what Sega made.

Uh.. PS2 is more powerful than Dreamcast in just about every other area. Faster CPUs, more GFLOPS, double the main RAM, far higher polygon rate, etc.

The only thing it really lacked in compared to Dreamcast was VRAM.

I seem to have my Dreamcast info wrong anyway. Appears it was a single SH4 (I thought it was 2 x SH4 SMP) and only 8 MB VRAM (I thought 16MB).

My time with DC was very very brief and it was a long time ago. I learned just enough to get to know the architecture of the PVR tile rendering and some of the SH4s 128 bit vector ops.

But the specs are of the top of my head:

PS2:

MIPS R5900
~300 MHz
6.2 GFLOPs
32 MB RDRAM @ 3.2 GB/s
4 MB VRAM embedded RDRAM on die in "GS"
~20-75 million polys per sec ?
DVD-ROM 8.5 GB capacity

-128 bit main bus throughout (64 bit QWORD and 128 bit DQWORD if I recall the terminology)
-Smart autonomous chainable packet driven DMA controller
-TWO completely stand alone 128 bit dedicated dual integer/vector pipe SIMD processors with their own instruction sets and RAM (VU0 and VU1)
-128 bit registers in the R5900 "EE"
-dedicated VIF/GIF/SIF/etc interfaces that could automatically arbitrate contentions between DMA and the target devices (eg: insert stalls), and automatically pack and unpack RGBA/XYZW data to and from a number of formats in flight
-sound processor was actually an entire 33 MHz MIPS R3300 with everything needed to natively run PS1 games for BC but could be a coprocessor and run .irx modules to offload all I/O devices in PS2 mode.
-Graphics Synthesizer: 48 GB/s to it's 4MB embedded RDRAM, 16 pixel raster pipe, 2560 bit internal bus, 2.4 giga pixels per second (1.2 textured).
-VU1 closely coupled to GS acting as the geometry processor for all lighting, transform, clipping, geometry CREATION (aka subdivision surfaces), etc. VU1 was effectively a completely programmable vertex shader that ran it's own programs completely independent of the main CPU.
-no antialiasing but the CRTC could be programmed with two frame buffer addresses (in practice, just slightly shifted addresses of the same framebuffer) and alpha blend them to both hide the low texture color depths and provide fake pseudo antialiasing, motion blur, depth of field, etc type effects.

DC:

Hitachi SH4
200 MHz
1.4 GFLOPs
16 MB SDRAM @ 1.5 GB/s
8 MB VRAM
~ 3-6 million polys per sec
GD-ROM 1.x GB capacity

-128 bit SIMD vector and matrix instructions built into the SH4
-PVR @ 3.2 gigapixels/s untextured?
-hardware texture compression
-not much custom or special about Dreamcast architecture. Standard CPU connected to some RAM and a PC PVR2 rasterizer connected to some VRAM. Very easy to program. All geometry, transform, lighting, matrix, vertex, clipping etc operations carried out on the main CPU in software. PVR simply accepts finished 2D triangle display lists, sorts the triangles into pixels/spanlines into tile bins, then renders the pixels to the framebuffer with 0 overdraw.
-hardware anti aliasing built into PVR2? trivial and natural due to it's deferred rendering approach and knowing all triangles and pixels in the scene before any writes to the framebuffer occur. All rendering gets sent through a "cheese grater" where everything gets sent not to the frame buffer, but subdivided and dumped into tile bins/display lists for individual parts of the screen, which are then processed LATER in an on die tile buffer and blasted to the frame buffer tile by tile (IIRC).

From what I can remember and sort through on the web, DC had more video ram, even more with texture compression, and more fill rate, and anti aliasing. Explains why DC games are more vibrant and colorful than most PS2 games that look dull and washed out by comparison. PS2 struggled with maximum texture size and used 8 bit CLUT and 15/16 bit texture formats more often than 24/32 bit textures. While Dreamcast was likely able to losslessly compress 8:8:8:8 or 5:6:5:0 RGBA textures into it's 8 MB VRAM, PS2 was more likely to be using 8 bit CLUT textures as it's "compression" in it's 4 MB VRAM.

But PS2 pretty much DWARFED the Dreamcast in everything else; it certainly wasn't a piece of shit. To be fair I don't have as much detail on Dreamcast because I had far more programming time on PS2 simply because it was more complicated to program and that equates to more fun for me. I like playing with oddball multi processor architectures that look completely unlike anything else I've ever programmed.

So DC looked prettier, but what you saw up front is what you got, there wouldn't have been much room for improvement. It probably would have always looked better than PS2. As later PS2 games got more complex and started implementing multiple render passes, render to texture, etc, the low color depth, relatively plain blurry textures, and lack of precision and dithering from being crammed from lack of VRAM became even more apparent.

PS2 didn't look as pretty but was capable of creating far more immersive game environments (more objects, more complex geometry and particle systems, more complex physics effects, deeper AI, etc). When programmers were able to program the system properly asynchronously with minimal stalling and maximum concurrency and utilizing ALL processing units including the often overlooked VU0, it would dwarf the Dreamcast in raw power.
 
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futurefields

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2012
6,470
32
91
I know this isnt a Gamecube thread, but...

I remember reading years back "looking for the article again" that somehow "I cant remember how either" that they tried running F-Zero GX on the Playstation 2, or something to that nature, and no matter what they did, it just wasn't powerful enough to run the game. I am not saying they got it to run on the PS2, What I am saying is....they stated : The Playstation 2 hardware would not be capable to run F-Zero GX. Based on the tracks or whatever and the fast movement.

Im looking for the article, as it was a very good read.


It's common knowledge that Gamecube was more powerful than PS2. It would also have never been able to do Super Mario Sunshine or Zelda Wind Waker or Metroid Prime (which was also 60fps) or Star Fox Adventures or any other Gamecube game. Rogue Leader Luigi's Mansion etc... these games were leaps and bounds beyond anything PS2 had to offer graphically. PS2 could not pull off any advanced graphics functions at all.
 

JeffMD

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2002
2,026
19
81
I never found the gamecube to have any real boost in polygon details, it probably pushed the same number of polygons. It just had access to much better rendering features like shaders that allowed it to do more with the textures it had. On the flip side the mini dvd's limited the gamecube in movies and sound. It seems very similar to the PS1 and N64. Same number of polygons (N64 may actually have pushed less) but things like smoothing and perspective correction made everything look 100 times better. yet the cartridge format limited cinematics and music.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Yeah DC games always seemed more deeper in color to me than Ps2 games, but that isn't to say PS2 games looked like crap. FF10 was a wonderfully deep & colorful game (aesthetic design of FF12 was more darker, hence why I didn't mention it although some areas were very colorful). However, other multi platform games like Grandia 2 was clearly superior on the Dreamcast; but that may have been because it was a straight DC port.
 

futurefields

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2012
6,470
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91
I never found the gamecube to have any real boost in polygon details, it probably pushed the same number of polygons. It just had access to much better rendering features like shaders that allowed it to do more with the textures it had. On the flip side the mini dvd's limited the gamecube in movies and sound. It seems very similar to the PS1 and N64. Same number of polygons (N64 may actually have pushed less) but things like smoothing and perspective correction made everything look 100 times better. yet the cartridge format limited cinematics and music.

The one thing PS2 was decent at was pushing a decent number of poly's it just couldn't do much to make those poly's look good.
 

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0
I've heard some people call the original Xbox a spiritual successor to the Dreamcast. It's certainly the more powerful 6th gen system.

The original Xbox also came out over a year after the PS2 and was basically an x86 mobile Celeron and a custom clocked Geforce 3 sku. Makes sense that it would be the most powerful of the 6th Gen consoles.

I'd never heard that about the original Xbox, but more so the X360.

Especially considering Peter Moore.

Eh? On paper, the PS3 is the most powerful 7th generation console, in both CPU and GPU power. Its just more complicated to develop for.

Still blows my mind though that the phone in my pocket is more powerful than the 7th generation consoles.
 

Anarchist420

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Feb 13, 2010
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Yeah DC games always seemed more deeper in color to me than Ps2 games, but that isn't to say PS2 games looked like crap. FF10 was a wonderfully deep & colorful game (aesthetic design of FF12 was more darker, hence why I didn't mention it although some areas were very colorful). However, other multi platform games like Grandia 2 was clearly superior on the Dreamcast; but that may have been because it was a straight DC port.
and the dreamcast had a better audio subsystem
 

SPBHM

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2012
5,065
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it's unfair to compare because the PS2 had a huge advantage in terms of money and time spent with games development,

but I think the PS2 is capable of a lot more, I could never imagine GT4, God of War, Burnout 3, MGS2, Black and so many others running on the DC.


while I can see every single DC game running fine with the same graphics on the PS2.
 

SaurusX

Senior member
Nov 13, 2012
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What was the deal with the motion trails that so many PS2 games had? I know it wasn't just my display, because it was an effect that I never saw on any other system. The first example that comes to mind is GTA3,b but I saw it done in many other titles. It was distracting as all hell to me. Like a bad mushroom trip.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
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but I think the PS2 is capable of a lot more, I could never imagine GT4, God of War, Burnout 3, MGS2, Black and so many others running on the DC. while I can see every single DC game running fine with the same graphics on the PS2.
they didnt have the same rasterizer so they couldnt look identical and run fine.
 

JeffMD

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2002
2,026
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What was the deal with the motion trails that so many PS2 games had? I know it wasn't just my display, because it was an effect that I never saw on any other system. The first example that comes to mind is GTA3,b but I saw it done in many other titles. It was distracting as all hell to me. Like a bad mushroom trip.

I did not like it either. When exdeath said'

"-no antialiasing but the CRTC could be programmed with two frame buffer addresses (in practice, just slightly shifted addresses of the same framebuffer) and alpha blend them to both hide the low texture color depths and provide fake pseudo antialiasing, motion blur, depth of field, etc type effects. "

I knew exactly what he was referring too. It was an ugly overused effect in attempt to create both motion blur and antailiasing. and it was easy to do.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
13,679
10
81
Motion blur on PS2 = CRTC address 1 reading from old front buffer, CRTC address 2 reading from current back buffer after rendering is complete but before the "flip" , and blend 75% back buffer 25% old front buffer. Something like that.