Do you think that Microsoft can successfully compete with Sony in the Next-Generation console war?

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TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,464
2
0
Originally posted by: drag
Hmm. Sounds about the same thing as people do with Xbox and Mythtv.

People setup a Linux box in another room with a powerfull proccessor or 2, stick in a couple mpeg2 tv capture cards (winpvr250 or winpvr350, or any generic tv capture card actually), and then have that run the MythTV backend and database. Then they run the MythTV front end on the Xbox...

Hmmm... I think I need to get a Xbox now, their pretty cheap, now, eh?

What is the sound output on them? A SPDIF output? (hell I may get one tonigh, then I can use the Xbox controller on my Linux gaming box. It'll go well with a couple new games I've been screwing around with.)

It's exactly the same. Only diff is that Myth requires a modchip (or an older Xbox and some skill) and quite a bit of Linux knowledge. MCE extender is a turnkey solution.

$150 for a new Xbox, $130 for a factory refurb (From MS). GameStop and EB both have their company refurbs for $120, but IMO they're not as high quality as the MS refurbs.

To get SPDIF, you'll need either the Advanced AV Pack (S-Video, composite, analog audio and SPDIF) or High Definition AV Pack (Component video, analog audio and SPDIF). The High Defintion is capable of doing 480i over component, in case you're wondering. "Component Video Pack" would have been a more apt name for it.
 

warcrow

Lifer
Jan 12, 2004
11,078
11
81
Allow me to elaborate on my two word answer (yes. Money). With the amount of chas MS is sitting on, they will pour an insane amount of funding into every aspect of the next generation race. Because MS was actually able to surpase Nintendo in sales, the suits upstairs see the possibilites with more funds. I currently dont own an Xbox (and don't even want one, Halo was meh...but thats just my opinion...I'm a PC guy anyways), but I'm interested in the next generation console. I'm really looking foward to seeing what all 3 companies will do, especially Sony. This new Cell technology has had billions invested in it by 3 HUGE companies (that I know of, there might be more). I'm looking foward to new information to be leaked or revealed.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
Originally posted by: TerryMathews
Originally posted by: drag
Hmm. Sounds about the same thing as people do with Xbox and Mythtv.

People setup a Linux box in another room with a powerfull proccessor or 2, stick in a couple mpeg2 tv capture cards (winpvr250 or winpvr350, or any generic tv capture card actually), and then have that run the MythTV backend and database. Then they run the MythTV front end on the Xbox...

Hmmm... I think I need to get a Xbox now, their pretty cheap, now, eh?

What is the sound output on them? A SPDIF output? (hell I may get one tonigh, then I can use the Xbox controller on my Linux gaming box. It'll go well with a couple new games I've been screwing around with.)

It's exactly the same. Only diff is that Myth requires a modchip (or an older Xbox and some skill) and quite a bit of Linux knowledge. MCE extender is a turnkey solution.

Turnkey? ha. Do you think I have a Media Center personal computer laying around? I am NOT going to pirate it, and I don't have a OEM contract with MS whatever in order to get it. Stuff that. Probably won't even work with my ATI Wonder-VE card. I know that thing didn't even work with straight WinXP for goodness greif. (I know it's suppose to work with my WinPVR-250, though)

Plus no Bash shell? What am I going to do when I want to reencode my recorded stuff into mpeg4 files so I can copy a bunch of them to my laptop so I can watch them at work (also how hard is it to scedual this stuff to run when I am not home or asleep so it doesn't bog my computer down when I am using it)? What am I going to do to stream video to my laptop over wireless at my home? What am I going to do to stream Ogg/Flac/Mp3 audio all over my house, go out and buy a bunch of software and hardware I don't need?

NO thankyou. MCE sounds like a lot more work then I am willing to put into it, I like stuff I can hack around with and make it do what I like. Linux is much easier to mess around with.

Oh, also I don't think you need a modchip anymore. Even with the newer stuff. You do need a older version of Mech assualt, newer versions have the save game hack fixed I think. Either that or a USB stick with the "linux installer" save game already copied to it. You do sacrifice the Xbox-Live capabilities, though. No loss for me, I am not buying this for gaming anyways. I can probably just buy the memory stick with the hack straight from a Linux xbox website anyways.

$150 for a new Xbox, $130 for a factory refurb (From MS). GameStop and EB both have their company refurbs for $120, but IMO they're not as high quality as the MS refurbs.

Probably. Or I can go down to the local used gamers store and probably get a old one for less then a hundred. Who knows, old stuff is cheap. (wouldn't like to end up with one of those 2gig drives though.)

To get SPDIF, you'll need either the Advanced AV Pack (S-Video, composite, analog audio and SPDIF) or High Definition AV Pack (Component video, analog audio and SPDIF). The High Defintion is capable of doing 480i over component, in case you're wondering. "Component Video Pack" would have been a more apt name for it.


That sucks. How much does that cost?
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
Originally posted by: warcrow
Allow me to elaborate on my two word answer (yes. Money). With the amount of chas MS is sitting on, they will pour an insane amount of funding into every aspect of the next generation race. Because MS was actually able to surpase Nintendo in sales, the suits upstairs see the possibilites with more funds. I currently dont own an Xbox (and don't even want one, Halo was meh...but thats just my opinion...I'm a PC guy anyways), but I'm interested in the next generation console. I'm really looking foward to seeing what all 3 companies will do, especially Sony. This new Cell technology has had billions invested in it by 3 HUGE companies (that I know of, there might be more). I'm looking foward to new information to be leaked or revealed.

Ya, The Cell technology is very exiting. I think that people don't understand it, that's why you see lots of people calling BS on Sony and says it's hype.

The Cell archatecture is mostly a cheap way to mass produce multiple CPU's on one chip, pretty much. For instance the latest specs for Sony's setup is to have 1 4ghz PowerPC CPU surrounded by 4 or 6 special purpose CPU's that are just for floating point calculations. That will be one cell module. People are figuring that they are going to stick 4 of these into a single Sony Playstation3.

Then the cool part is that the Bus, grid, or whatever, that the CPU's communicate with each on is extendable too. So that if you plug a 2nd Playstation3 into it thru a special fiber optic connection then that will enable it's CPU's to communicate directly with each other.

Then you can add another 3rd playstation. Or maybe your HDTV has a cell proccessor in it (PowerPC's are very low power compared to x86 CPU's so they are commonly found in embedded applications. You probably have a few around you somewere right now (you know like 100mhz, 200mhz versions). So the same thing could happen to the Cell stuff), then you can have that work with your setup too.

So each Sony device you buy and hook up, then your entertainment system will just get more powerfull.

Of course that's not for years and years from now. If it ever happens. But it's a interesting concept.

If you want to see proof of how this works, check out the BlueGene/L experimental supercomputer from IBM

It currently has 8000-8200 PowerPC proccessors in little "Cell" modules. They interconnect in what would be a logical "torus" shape (vs a logical star shape, or a buss shape if your familar with networking.)

Even though it is experimental it is currently the 4th most powerfull known computer in existance as of June of this year.

The 3rd is the Los Alamos Ascii Q, running 8192 1.25ghz Alpha proccessors. The Ascii Q was recently upset by the Linux cluster at Livermore National labratories that run on 4096 1.4Ghz Intanium2 proccessors (that's #2).

The 5th most powerfull computer is the "Tungsten" Linux cluster running 2054 3.06Ghz Xeon proccessors (Dell computers, too ;)).

Of course the kicker is is that the IBM BlueGene's PowerPC are 500mhz. Probably modified embedded versions choosen for their low power dissapation. That's some hard-core scalability.

Cell stuff may not happen, but the technology is possible.

edit:
pluss I don't think it'll make much difference in Xbox2 vs Playstation3. Techology isn't going to happen in a usefull way for years. Do it might as well be mostly hype.
 

schdaddy

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2000
1,015
0
0
I think the XBOX2 & PS3 will be very close in market share w/ Revolution coming in third.

Microsoft has so much going for them:
Cash
Resources
Easier to develop games for (i.e. XNA)
XBOX Live Network
and again will have the best hardware

All they need to do is focus on RPGs, Asian market, & more exclusives.

Also, backward compatablility is a gimick & it wouldn't shock me if the PS3 didn't offer it.
 

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,464
2
0
Originally posted by: drag
Turnkey? ha. Do you think I have a Media Center personal computer laying around? I am NOT going to pirate it, and I don't have a OEM contract with MS whatever in order to get it. Stuff that. Probably won't even work with my ATI Wonder-VE card. I know that thing didn't even work with straight WinXP for goodness greif. (I know it's suppose to work with my WinPVR-250, though)

Plus no Bash shell? What am I going to do when I want to reencode my recorded stuff into mpeg4 files so I can copy a bunch of them to my laptop so I can watch them at work (also how hard is it to scedual this stuff to run when I am not home or asleep so it doesn't bog my computer down when I am using it)? What am I going to do to stream video to my laptop over wireless at my home? What am I going to do to stream Ogg/Flac/Mp3 audio all over my house, go out and buy a bunch of software and hardware I don't need?

NO thankyou. MCE sounds like a lot more work then I am willing to put into it, I like stuff I can hack around with and make it do what I like. Linux is much easier to mess around with.

Oh, also I don't think you need a modchip anymore. Even with the newer stuff. You do need a older version of Mech assualt, newer versions have the save game hack fixed I think. Either that or a USB stick with the "linux installer" save game already copied to it. You do sacrifice the Xbox-Live capabilities, though. No loss for me, I am not buying this for gaming anyways. I can probably just buy the memory stick with the hack straight from a Linux xbox website anyways.

$150 for a new Xbox, $130 for a factory refurb (From MS). GameStop and EB both have their company refurbs for $120, but IMO they're not as high quality as the MS refurbs.

Probably. Or I can go down to the local used gamers store and probably get a old one for less then a hundred. Who knows, old stuff is cheap. (wouldn't like to end up with one of those 2gig drives though.)

To get SPDIF, you'll need either the Advanced AV Pack (S-Video, composite, analog audio and SPDIF) or High Definition AV Pack (Component video, analog audio and SPDIF). The High Defintion is capable of doing 480i over component, in case you're wondering. "Component Video Pack" would have been a more apt name for it.


That sucks. How much does that cost?

OK, I'm going to start at the top and work my way down.

The Xbox MCE Extender is a turnkey solution. Google it. It's not my fault, nor is it Microsoft's that you don't have an MCE computer. They're available. If it mattered to you, you could go out and buy one tomorrow at most retailers. Hence the definition of the word 'turnkey'. Turnkey has little to nothing to do with the cost of the item; as a matter of fact, turnkey solutions are almost always the most expensive, because of their simplicity in setup.

Nobody said MCE was the perfect solution for the techies of the world; on the contrary, I prefer SageTV. That said, MCE and the Xbox extender is designed for the nouveau-riche family considering TiVo, and is a very good solution because it will sell (a few) MCE boxes to families that already have Xboxes and are considering TiVo-like PVR functionality. It will sell quite a few Xboxes though, as clients to MCE computers already installed.

It's one-of-a-kind for sure. The SageTV client comes close, but the simplicity is nowhere near that of the Xbox MCE extender. You can make Hauppauge MediaMVPs into Myth clients, but it's all still bleeding-edge stuff I wouldn't let my parents use yet. Maybe in a couple of months...

Your knowledge on modding Xboxes is out of date, or mine is bad. It was my understanding that all of the new Xbox units on the market shipped with the newest Live + Dashboard, which completely disables the buffer exploit hackers used to boot Linux from modified MechAssault or Bond:AUF save files. Hence the need for the modchip.

Advanced and High Def AV packs retail for $30/pc, can be purchased used for much less, and come with all the required cabling (minus TOSLINK cabling for the sound). Even at $30, it's not a bad deal. I know at EB, when we've got them used they go for between $15 and $20.
 

bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
12,248
3
0
This thread needs to be retitled "Do you think that Microsoft can successfully compete with Nintendo in the Next-Generation console war?" as I doubt either will surpass Sony for #1 any earlier than part way through the next generation of consoles.

I also say this because Nintendo's GC has a lead over XBox and then there is Nintendo's incredible dominance in the portable gaming market.

If anything happens I'd think MS might die an early death, much like the DreamCast that wasn't enough and was too early - with Both Nintendo talking of a 2006 release and Sony as far off as 2007, MS's console would no longer be the one to boast the best hardware and they'd have to pull the standard PS2 BS about how the games are so much better in order to sell their console. Sounds risky when Sony's got so many of the franchises by the balls and Nintendo always has their money mascotts (ie Mario, Zelda, Metriod, StarFox)

XBox had Halo and then KOTOR which came out for PC and then Ninja Gaiden, but little else in terms of top notch unique sellers. They'll get stuff like Doom 3 and HL2 but those games are alos for a different platform other than XBox (as they'll be for PC just like KOTOR) Whereas Sony has 23982759287 games for their Playstation you can't get for any other console, even though only 2 of those games are probably any good, they can still boast the sheer amount while at the same time Nintendo always has their money mascotts that never seem to die, and only Nintendo systems can have Nintendo characters.

I've been watching Nintendo lately, they had a very lame start with the GameCube but they've made a complete 180 with things and they look to finish off this generation in 1st place ahead of XBox AND Sony, although Sony's massive head start makes them the undeniable winner of this generation.

I dunno, hopefully MS holds off on the XBox and sort of teams up with Nintendo to try and trump Sony out of hype. If all 3 companies stagger their new consoles then I fear Sony will just keep their spot, but if Nintendo and MS release their systems near each other their hardware will be so similar it'll be hard not to buy one or the other (or both ;)) and wait up for Sony (because IBM is working on the CPUs for XBox2 AND Revolution, same with ATI developing GPUs for XBox2 AND Revolution - and IBM is also doing PS3, LOL - so hardware capability should be much closer than what it is this round)

There's definately going to be some interesting times ahead, I just think MS is rushing things if they are actually planning a 2005 release and such early moves would be fatal which means Sony moves closer to monopoly over the console gaming market and while I think Nintendo is doing a MUCH better job I don't have faith that they can cut Sony down to proper size on its own.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
OK, I'm going to start at the top and work my way down.

The Xbox MCE Extender is a turnkey solution. Google it. It's not my fault, nor is it Microsoft's that you don't have an MCE computer. They're available. If it mattered to you, you could go out and buy one tomorrow at most retailers. Hence the definition of the word 'turnkey'. Turnkey has little to nothing to do with the cost of the item; as a matter of fact, turnkey solutions are almost always the most expensive, because of their simplicity in setup.

Thought you were talking to me, not the rest of the world. And MCE in any shape or form, even if I do own a personal video computer would not be a turnkey solution. It just doesn't do everything I want, nothing is turnkey as far as that goes. Plus Windows is just to big of a pain the but to deal with, and I build my own computer, and I do a much better job then anything you can get from Dell, or whoever else for a reasonable price.

But if you realy want to know, I use bash scripts + mplayer/mencoder/netcat right now for all my recording/encoding/decoding/streaming needs. I am mostly too lazy to bother installing extra software. ;)

Your knowledge on modding Xboxes is out of date, or mine is bad. It was my understanding that all of the new Xbox units on the market shipped with the newest Live + Dashboard, which completely disables the buffer exploit hackers used to boot Linux from modified MechAssault or Bond:AUF save files. Hence the need for the modchip.

Well only the very very new ones have that update. So I just won't buy a very new one. I wasn't planning on a brand new one anyways, although that could raise the price of older units.

Either case I am not afraid of the soldiering iron. Used it plenty of times before, if that's even required.

I just wish I owned a Sony Playstation2 right now. Sony released a kit for installing Linux on it, but it's down in quantities and too expensive to justify buying a whole box + the kit just for a little project like this. If I had one, I would do it though.

I do own a Game cube, though (my roomate has the playstation2), and their is a Linux version for that, too. But it's still in it's infancy and not to usefull.

Advanced and High Def AV packs retail for $30/pc, can be purchased used for much less, and come w
ith all the required cabling (minus TOSLINK cabling for the sound). Even at $30, it's not a bad deal. I know at EB, when we've got them used they go for between $15 and $20.

Ya that's reasonable for this sort of thing. Though I probably won't get it.
 

williamkusumo

Member
Aug 29, 2002
64
0
0
I think it all depends on the games. People buy consoles because they want to play certain games. And Japanese firms still dominate in this area.
 

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,464
2
0
Originally posted by: drag
Thought you were talking to me, not the rest of the world.

It's an open forum, we're always talking to everyone. Private discussion is via e-mail or private message.
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
11
81
Definately... the Xbox is technologically superior to the PS2... the chances of them providing competition in the future is very good. Not saying the next MS console will be superior to the next Sony console... but there's no reason to believe they can't be competative.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
0
0
Originally posted by: TerryMathews
Originally posted by: drag
Thought you were talking to me, not the rest of the world.

It's an open forum, we're always talking to everyone. Private discussion is via e-mail or private message.


Well MCE still isn't turnkey. :p
 

TerryMathews

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,464
2
0
Originally posted by: drag
Originally posted by: TerryMathews
Originally posted by: drag
Thought you were talking to me, not the rest of the world.

It's an open forum, we're always talking to everyone. Private discussion is via e-mail or private message.


Well MCE still isn't turnkey. :p

Yes, it is. If you truly believe it isn't, you need to google the definiton of turnkey.