do you think new gen console will make RPG game suck ?

[cmdrdredd]

Ni no kuni had too many annoying things to keep me playing. First off they should never make you manipulate a menu to select defense and spells when you are in realtime combat. Second the kid Repeated the same annoying phrases over and over. If I have to hear "jeepers" or "let's do it" one more time I will break my TV.

 

[exdeath]

Ni no kuni had too many annoying things to keep me playing. First off they should never make you manipulate a menu to select defense and spells when you are in realtime combat. Second the kid Repeated the same annoying phrases over and over. If I have to hear "jeepers" or "let's do it" one more time I will break my TV.

Game design decisions != anything to do with modern hardware and RPGs.

It showed what a RPG could be on modern hardware. Whether or not you liked the game itself is another story.

Funny how a kid saying "jeepers" over and over again is bad but people will play shooters where a "mature" billy bad ass main character with a goatee can get away with spewing the same cocky one liners over and over again while running down the same alley or bombed out building on the same map for the thousandth time that day alone 🙂

 

[cmdrdredd]

Game design decisions != anything to do with modern hardware and RPGs.

It showed what a RPG could be on modern hardware. Whether or not you liked the game itself is another story.

Funny how a kid saying "jeepers" over and over again is bad but people will play shooters where a "mature" billy bad ass main character with a goatee can get away with spewing the same cocky one liners over and over again while running down the same alley or bombed out building on the same map for the thousandth time that day alone 🙂

It does illustrate the problem with jrpgs and Japanese developers in general though. They need to alter the formula and only a few developers are even trying.

 

[Tweak155]

Game design decisions != anything to do with modern hardware and RPGs.

It showed what a RPG could be on modern hardware. Whether or not you liked the game itself is another story.

Funny how a kid saying "jeepers" over and over again is bad but people will play shooters where a "mature" billy bad ass main character with a goatee can get away with spewing the same cocky one liners over and over again while running down the same alley or bombed out building on the same map for the thousandth time that day alone 🙂

Uh, or it is equally annoying in both?

BTW, I watched some videos of Ni No Kuni... it actually looked interesting but I agree - wading through menus in real time battles while moving looks cumbersome.

 

[Tweak155]

I think they could imrpove the graphics and keep it 2d scrolling style or at least a fixed camera to help simplify things. A good example is Bastion.

This is why we have indie developers though. Unfortunately JRPG's aren't a large market here.

 

[diesbudt]

I am going to say it... I want a new Skys of arcadia.

 

[purbeast0]

to me, good art style can easily outshine good graphics and is more important. take mario galaxy for example, or donkey kong country returns on wii. the graphics aren't the greatest, since it's not even HD, but the art style totally makes up for it and i think the games look awesome because of it.

i'd love to see another dark and dirty zelda game though. or the 2d one coming to 3ds on the wii-u, even with just a little better graphics. even though it won't match anything on the x1 or ps4, graphically, the graphics and art style will be more than sufficient.

i'm not into the traditional JRPG's where they are turn based, but i'd love to see a new star tropics or soul blazer.

 

[ImpulsE69]

However I think when people say it looks like crap they mean low resolution textures, low poly characters etc. Imagine the game on a 360 or ps3 using all the capabilities. Could have been really amazing by comparison.

Next gen has huge potential. Facial animations can be hugely beneficial to the story telling and making you feel emotion.

Exactly, but did you actually read it? THAT was the reason it was doable.

 

[ImpulsE69]

Ni no kuni had too many annoying things to keep me playing. First off they should never make you manipulate a menu to select defense and spells when you are in realtime combat. Second the kid Repeated the same annoying phrases over and over. If I have to hear "jeepers" or "let's do it" one more time I will break my TV.

You bring up something that REALLY bothers me with today's JRPGs. The constant barrage of needless repetitive phrases in fights. It might be interesting the first couple of fights, but 1000's of fights later it's just like...put in an option to turn them off.

 

[Aikouka]

If I have to hear "jeepers" or "let's do it" one more time I will break my TV.

There's a reason why I turn on the Japanese audio...!

 

[cmdrdredd]

You bring up something that REALLY bothers me with today's JRPGs. The constant barrage of needless repetitive phrases in fights. It might be interesting the first couple of fights, but 1000's of fights later it's just like...put in an option to turn them off.

Yeah I can understand a yell or kiai of some sort but a lot of the phrases like "we did it" "I am the best" and "let's keep it up" to name a few really wear me down. The only game recently I can think of that did it right was persona 4 because the characters built close friendships through your actions so words of encouragement when you get a critical hit or feelings of dispare expressed toward a character when they have a status ailment seem to fit the story you make for them.

 

[smackababy]

You bring up something that REALLY bothers me with today's JRPGs. The constant barrage of needless repetitive phrases in fights. It might be interesting the first couple of fights, but 1000's of fights later it's just like...put in an option to turn them off.

I think that might have a lot to do with the 'Westernization' of the dialog and characters. I know it happened to Naruto and his "Believe it!" spewing in the anime. I only know this because every Tuesday my old roommate would steal my bandwidth after work downloading the latest episode. =( Voice acting is a real job in Japan and in America, it is where we send the ugly, talentless actors. If you're playing a JRPG, turn on Japanese voices and read the subtitles. It is so much better.


The problem with JRPGs is that they don't sell well enough to be made into real, blockbuster games. If a company put the time and resources BioWare did into their JRPGS, we'd have amazing ones. Sadly, they wouldn't make that money back. The market just doesn't support them. Take a game like Lost Odyssey: great writing, despite an overused JRPG concept (somebody has to have lost their memory, otherwise the game 'asplodes); decent production value; great sound / music; competent battle / skill / system; and a ton of amazing short stories (written by actual writers) to find throughout the game.

I think most JRPGs will move to the 3DS. It is cheaper to develop for (flat 2d animated cut scenes are just fine even without movement) and they can even get rid of voice actors.

 

[futurefields]

Right now, that means Call of Dutyifying everything. In other words, making everything very simple, very scripted, heavy on action, light on customization

I feel its just the opposite w/ regards to customization, even "dude bro" shooters are letting you customize more and more. isnt that one of the main things that COD4: Modern Warfare 1 innovated? The ability to totally customize your guns and your loadouts? In fact a lot of people hated on Halo 4 because they added customizable loadouts, the Halo purists didnt want that. You just can't please everyone.

 

[Dumac]

I feel its just the opposite w/ regards to customization, even "dude bro" shooters are letting you customize more and more. isnt that one of the main things that COD4: Modern Warfare 1 innovated? The ability to totally customize your guns and your loadouts? In fact a lot of people hated on Halo 4 because they added customizable loadouts, the Halo purists didnt want that. You just can't please everyone.

I guess a distinction should be made between customization as in load-outs and customization as in some sort of build system.

If everything is fluid and there is only really 1 set up that is used by most of the populace, there isn't much customization.

 

[futurefields]

I feel like JRPG's and other turn-based games are literally a genre born out of hardware limitations. For a long time, the best way to provide an engaging "cinematic" experience was to slow things down to turn based so that they could provide the scope necessary- old cpus couldnt do that much in realtime.

Now developers have the hardware to finally make the realtime 3d cinematic experiences they always wanted too. So JRPG, turn based games, etc etc are on the back burner now.

See: The Last of Us thread. Game is totally linear as has been confirmed, there is zero choice in how you proceed in that game, and everybody thinks it is the best game of this generation.

So why would a developer go back to making turn based RPG games when everybody wants to play movie-style games?

THe times have changed simple as that. Now developers have the tech power to realize their biggest dreams, they dont have to make slow plodding turn based stuff anymore.

 

[futurefields]

If everything is fluid and there is only really 1 set up that is used by most of the populace, there isn't much customization.

Ive never heard of any decent FPS that has 1 single OP loadout. Even the shitty COD games have a FEW different guns that everybody gravitates towards.

Anyways, like I said, developers simply can't please everyone.

 

[exdeath]

I feel like JRPG's and other turn-based games are literally a genre born out of hardware limitations. For a long time, the best way to provide an engaging "cinematic" experience was to slow things down to turn based so that they could provide the scope necessary- old cpus couldnt do that much in realtime.

Now developers have the hardware to finally make the realtime 3d cinematic experiences they always wanted too. So JRPG, turn based games, etc etc are on the back burner now.

See: The Last of Us thread. Game is totally linear as has been confirmed, there is zero choice in how you proceed in that game, and everybody thinks it is the best game of this generation.

So why would a developer go back to making turn based RPG games when everybody wants to play movie-style games?

THe times have changed simple as that. Now developers have the tech power to realize their biggest dreams, they dont have to make slow plodding turn based stuff anymore.

There is plenty of flexibility on implementing battle systems. Everyone seems fixated on the dated battle system, and that is entirely missing the point of JRPGs. Battles are a necessary evil and are distant concern next to story, characters, and world.

Case in point, when people wax poetic about Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy IV or VI, or Secret of Mana, its not the battle systems anyone remembers, its the epic journey. A good battle mechanic is one that is forgettable because it doesn't get in the way.

The allure for me has always been the exploring, treasure hunting, and the tragic hair raising soul sucking bittersweet fairytale stories. Regardless of the physical implementation, JRPGs of the 90s had edge of your seat unforgettable stories and characters you were sad to part ways with at the end.

I enjoyed FF XIIIs battle system, its the rest of the game that was lacking.

Take FF XIIIs battles and combine with the world of Ni no Kuni? Doesn't even have to be turn based; see Kingdom Hearts.

Play something like the Xenosaga trilogy. Its just overwhelming in story, characters, world, and drama. Entire trilogy plays like a 200+ hour Shakespeare tragedy. Battle mechanics have nothing to do with that, and shouldn't make or break the game. People focused on fight mechanics are probably better off sticking to shooters and mindless action games, that's not what RPGs are about.

As for The Last of Us, my favorite games this entire generation along with Ni no Kuni. Make it third person 3/4 view, add a world map, and throw some treasure chests and alternate paths in it here and there with character leveling and you have an incredible RPG. 😛

 

[Sulaco]

I feel its just the opposite w/ regards to customization, even "dude bro" shooters are letting you customize more and more. isnt that one of the main things that COD4: Modern Warfare 1 innovated? The ability to totally customize your guns and your loadouts? In fact a lot of people hated on Halo 4 because they added customizable loadouts, the Halo purists didnt want that. You just can't please everyone.

You're really missing the point.

"Customization" means more than choosing which submachine or sniper rifle gun to carry. There is absolutely nothing innovative about that in an FPS, that dates back to Rainbow Six in '97 or '98, why you even brought that up I have no clue. 😕

In the context of RPGs, it means far more than weapon load out.

 

[Sulaco]

There is plenty of flexibility on implementing battle systems. Everyone seems fixated on the dated battle system, and that is entirely missing the point of JRPGs. Battles are a necessary evil and are distant concern next to story, characters, and world.

SO. MUCH. THIS.

Even at a young age, playing Final Fantasy II (IV) for the first time at 7 years old, the battles were just an obstacle keeping me from true goal: advancing the story. Sure, battles can be fun, and in cases of games with great battle systems like Chrono Trigger, earthbound, or Secret of Mana, it's more enjoyable than most. Removing things like incessant random battles or grinding goes a loooooooooong way in making combat more fun, too.

But I, and I believe most fans, play them because of the fantastic characters, atmospheric worlds, and of course, the great characters.
Truly great RPGs stand the test of time because they weave fantastic tales with great characters. Nobody still sings the praises of Planescape Torment (to use a WRPG example) because the combat was just awesome, or the graphics blew you away. They remember it and love it because it told a phenomenal story.

And not all great JRPGs had turn-based combat either. Illusion of Gaia, Terranigma, and the aforementioned Secret of Mana had real-time action RPG combat, and some of the best characters and stories out there.

I harbor no great love for the combat in RPGs, although let's be clear: it does offer indisputably more depth and strategy options than real-time "zelda style" combat.

Either way, the games are great because when done right; with great characters, stories, and worlds, they are one of the few genres of games that are truly timeless.

 

[stockwiz]

Games have become what they have not because the hardware is too powerful, but because of what this guy said. Publicly traded giants publishing games... any time something gets publicly traded the drive for greater and greater profits always takes precedence and mass market appeal is first priority. It's also the reason you now have all this DLC, micro-transactions, online only.. they see dollar signs and want you paying $150 for the game by the time you are done.

Gaming has gone mainstream like Hollywood. The casual drooling masses don't want engaging soul stirring game stories, they just want to hit the power button, jump in right away, skip all the intros, and mash a single button and blow shit up in HD and win the game in 5 minutes. So that's what devs cater to. It's easy money. This is what happened to Square; in fact Final Fantasy XIII falls into that "mash a button and blow shit up" paradigm just perfectly. Games are made for Call of Doodoo players who get lost in 5 seconds if there isn't a giant arrow way point on a compass telling them exactly where to go and what to do and then cry that the game sucks.

Then on the other side half of what does come out is spastic retarded Naruto or DragonBall inspired anime games that are TOO Japanese with their squealing cat girls and bouncing boobs and calling them RPGs. False.

As far as games costing too much to develop... all I can say about that is bureaucratic bloat. Companies just got too big for their own good. When those games where being made in the past by small dev teams, you didn't have suits and investors sucking the company dry while simultaneously gutting the game to appeal to more people to try and suck every dollar they can. Today it's all about exploiting and milking lowest common denominator franchises. It's not that the RPG market shrunk, it's just the total gaming market grew to hundreds of millions and all these new "gamers" want is shooters and dude bro sports games, so they get what they want and we get nothing.

Anyone working on an RPG should study Ni no Kuni. That's how you make a classic style JRPG in the spirit of the 90's RPG golden age using modern technology.

 

[exdeath]

Ni no Kuni had its issues but it was a step in the right direction and showed that traditional RPGs can work and be breathtaking on modern consoles.

Hasn't even been a full year and its a million seller and I just saw yesterday it reached greatest hits status. So there is money to be made in RPGs. Might not be Call of Doodoo money, but what else is?

That's the problem with gaming. Companies run by investors with dollar signs in their eyes who expect everything should generate Call of Doodoo numbers.

Call of Doodoo sales is a fluke and nothing else is going to do that, and never had before. The sooner they accept that and move on with more realistic goals, the better things will get for the rest of us. Better served with 6 x 1 million quality sellers than trying to be the next 6 million seller and producing shifty games and alienating your most loyal fans in the process . Im looking at you Square.

 

[pathos]

SO. MUCH. THIS.
But I, and I believe most fans, play them because of the fantastic characters, atmospheric worlds, and of course, the great characters.
Truly great RPGs stand the test of time because they weave fantastic tales with great characters. Nobody still sings the praises of Planescape Torment (to use a WRPG example) because the combat was just awesome, or the graphics blew you away. They remember it and love it because it told a phenomenal story.

I agree to a certain extent, and then I also do not agree.

For example, certainly, Baldur's Gate II had a great story. But, alot of the fun of that game was it's combat. There are people out there still playing that game, because it made you use actual strategy, and because it's fun to try out different things during different play throughs (different classes, skills, party composition, etc) to make the combat new and varied.

And I, for one, actually like turn based combat. I don't think it gets stale. I don't think I'm alone here either. I do realize it's not for everyone. And, if you are trying to attract the largest denominator possible, turn based is probably not the way to go about doing it, sadly.

I will agree though, that the most memorable rpg's, whether western or japanese, were memorable because of the actual story normally, no matter how good or bad the combat was.

On a different note, the term jrpg encompasses a very large and varied amount of games. You have strategy games, turn based games, action games, and games that are somewhere in between. Games that tell huge, complicated stories, games that rely on the mundane, or have little story at all. Games that make you play solo, with no party, or set parties, or games that let you choose your party from an extremely large cast.

Probably one of the few things that was fairly constant was character designs, and even that got alot more varied with the current generation.

I do love games with great stories, but I'm currently replaying Radiata Stories. It's not the most involved or convoluted story ever. The characters amuse me, but they aren't anything special.

The combat was also, rather run of the mill, featuring real time action oriented combat, with different attacks you unlock, and program in as your basic attacks.

What I truly loved about the game, however, was having over 150 characters to recrut, and put in your party. As a side note, I also loved the Suikoden games for the exact same reason (even 3, with it's weaker story)

 

[Tweak155]

And I, for one, actually like turn based combat. I don't think it gets stale. I don't think I'm alone here either. I do realize it's not for everyone. And, if you are trying to attract the largest denominator possible, turn based is probably not the way to go about doing it, sadly.

This. I grinded to 98+ on all of my characters and leveled all the important materia to max in FFVII before fighting Sephiroth.