Do you take the good with the bad? (POLL)

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Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Do you recognize the USA's accomplishments and failures, or just one or the other?

If you are proud of the US's accomplishments, but never feel shame, seems you have a double-standard.
 
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cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
The first 2 questions are mainly about the US/government. I said "yes" I'm proud and ashamed of the US/government. The second 2 questions are about me personally. I said "no" for both.

There's been plenty of proud and shameful moments, but overall, our accomplishments outweigh our disapointments. This is a great country. It's not about whether we have lived up to our highest ideals... perfection in not possible. The glory is in the striving.
 
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Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Who are the people that think the US moon walk reflects positively on them? I'd really like to know why they think that.
 
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HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
0
Yes
Yes
No
No

Sure I'm happy that the US made it to Luna first and ashamed that we killed Indians and did nothing about slavery but those have nothing to do with who I am.
 
T

TWills

Senior member
Jan 31, 2005
905
0
0
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Do you recognize the USA's accomplishments and failures, or just one or the other?

If you are proud of the US's accomplishments, but never feel shame, seems you have a double-standard.
Click to expand...

I think your first question is dumb. You're lying to yourself if you think ANY country is 100% perfect, and don't acknowledge it's faults. To err is human, and if you have a human-created government...well, you figure out what that implies. ;)
 
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Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: TWills
I think your first question is dumb. You're lying to yourself if you think ANY country is 100% perfect, and don't acknowledge it's faults. To err is human, and if you have a human-created government...well, you figure out what that implies. ;)
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You think the question is dumb? Did you notice the poll results? There are people that take the good without admitting to the bad.
 
A

AntaresVI

Platinum Member
May 10, 2001
2,152
0
0
Originally posted by: TWills
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Do you recognize the USA's accomplishments and failures, or just one or the other?

If you are proud of the US's accomplishments, but never feel shame, seems you have a double-standard.
Click to expand...

I think your first question is dumb. You're lying to yourself if you think ANY country is 100% perfect, and don't acknowledge it's faults. To err is human, and if you have a human-created government...well, you figure out what that implies. ;)
Click to expand...

I think he's talking more about people who choose only to focus on one side. There are those on both sides of the aisle on this forum that ONLY post pro- or anti- american news and opinions, while the vast majority recognizes both success and failure.
 
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TWills

Senior member
Jan 31, 2005
905
0
0
Originally posted by: Infohawk
Originally posted by: AntaresVI
I think he's talking more about people who choose only to focus on one side.
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Ummm... that is why I started this poll...
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People who choose only to see one side are unrealistic and embarrassingly nearsighted. I'll talk more later when I have time...
 
K

kogase

Diamond Member
Sep 8, 2004
5,213
0
0
I answered no for the first two. I wasn't around for either, so I won't take the credit or the blame for either. I answered yes for the second two. I think, in general, that those will reflect negatively/positively on me whether I like it or not, in the eyes of the rest of the world.
 
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maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
ALL nations, not just the United States, were built on the blood of others. ALL nations removed the natives, and butchered the local wildlife to suit their ideals. Show me one that hasn't.....You can't.
 
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Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: maluckey
ALL nations, not just the United States, were built on the blood of others. ALL nations removed the natives, and butchered the local wildlife to suit their ideals. Show me one that hasn't.....You can't.
Click to expand...

Wow, way to fight against a strawman there! You really ripped down that argument that nobody happened to make!
 
sandorski

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,805
6,361
126
Didn't vote in the poll since I'm not American, but thought I'd offer a comment instead.

Going beyond the few issues raised and taking into account the whole history of the US I'd say overall the US has been a posiitive influence. From Civilian Democratic rule to being involved in Conflicts that helped protect similar thinking Peoples it's hard to imagine how the World could have turned out as well as it did without the US. It may have turned out similar, but would have likely been much more Conflict filled and difficult to acheive.

However, there is certainly a darkside to the US, one that pops up on occassion and probably will continue to in the Future. That darkside includes quickness to violence, inconsistent application of the phrase "All men are created equal", and (related to previous point) willingness to Take from others Property that does not belong to the US(theft). This inconsistency between the FF stated principles and the exercise of the darkside through the centuries has caused a Love/Hate attitude in the rest of the World towards the US.
 
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maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
Infohawk,

I am referring to the facts, and just the facts. I feely admit the atrocities and the triumphs. I was not part of the Moon landing, yet I feel proud of it. I was not part of the native genocide, yet I can feel for them.

You have here a Black and White poll, which happens to be a specialty around here. The truth is far far and away from "with us" or "against us". It always is. Immaturity of thought sees in Black and white, while realists that don't follow flights of fancy tend to understand that just because there was bad, does not mean that it must continue to be so. Roses grow larger from dirt that is often fertilized with cow droppings. All bad does not stain the end product, as nature on this planet lives on the death of others. Only a few bacterium grow through chemosynthesis. Every other organism lives from death.

 
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Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: maluckey
You have here a Black and White poll, which happens to be a specialty around here. The truth is far far and away from "with us" or "against us".
Click to expand...

You don't really understand the point of the poll or worse, you don't see that you agree with me and just want to argue because I pointed out your previous argument was a strawman argument. It's not about being with us or or against us, it is whether people are consistent in their feelings or whether they put blinders on (i.e., black and white thinking).
 
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Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: Skoorb
I see what you're getting at, but they occurred in different times.
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Fine, choose some other wrongdoing that occurred around the same time.
 
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imported_Tango

Golden Member
Mar 8, 2005
1,623
0
0
Originally posted by: maluckey
ALL nations, not just the United States, were built on the blood of others. ALL nations removed the natives, and butchered the local wildlife to suit their ideals. Show me one that hasn't.....You can't.
Click to expand...


Swiss
 
sandorski

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,805
6,361
126
Originally posted by: Tango
Originally posted by: maluckey
ALL nations, not just the United States, were built on the blood of others. ALL nations removed the natives, and butchered the local wildlife to suit their ideals. Show me one that hasn't.....You can't.
Click to expand...


Swiss
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Huh? The abuse is so bad in Switzerland that the dogs have turned to acloholism!

What about the puppies!? ;)
 
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maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
The swiss were at war for two hundred years, after being "settled" by the Romans in a typical Roman Campaign. From 1291 to the early 1490's the Swiss Cantons fought.

They were again at war with themselves over religion in 1529. It was only since the French invasion of 1798, did the Swiss even have a "Country".

Any other countries without a violent past?
 
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slurmsmackenzie

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2004
1,413
0
0
it's funny... you take the accomplishments/negatives and look at them singularly.

the race to put a man on the moon was another level of the fight against the global threat of communism. there were many blunders and wasted dollars because of the "need" to outdo the russians. we've since left the moon which is widely considered the hub to furthering our space exploration. so the minor accomplishment is overshadowed by it's reasoning and application.
 
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Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Originally posted by: slurmsmackenzie
you take the accomplishments/negatives and look at them singularly.
Click to expand...

So what?

the race to put a man on the moon was another level of the fight against the global threat of communism. there were many blunders and wasted dollars because of the "need" to outdo the russians. we've since left the moon which is widely considered the hub to furthering our space exploration. so the minor accomplishment is overshadowed by it's reasoning and application.
Click to expand...

Fine, pick something you ARE proud of.
 
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