Do you need chains if you've got 4WD?

[skyking]

Thanksgiving morning we headed across Snoqualmie Pass with all the other late traveling idiots. The first signs said traction tires required, then at the chain up area it was "chains required on all vehicles except 4wd".
On the last climb to the top, it was down to a walk. There were 2wd cars and vans W/O chains making it if they had a ginger throttle foot. Nobody got a ticket for this that we saw, the WSP was too busy for that. I guess they do have some cameras that do that for them.
The first cars on the shoulder were both BMW's. One was a little convert driven by this hot blonde, cellphone glued to her ear. The next was a brand new 4d sedan with temp plates, going home to show off to mommy and daddy. There were also trying to "Phone those chains on"
The last idiot we passed was an 18 wheeler spinning on the shoulder, he should have just shut down and waited for the ticket.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: JoePa
Winter's coming! It's my favorite time of the year. What other time can you be safely driving 20MPH on a highway in a major storm and have some jerk in a SUV or minivan (seriously what do they think they are driving) run up your ass at 65, cut you off, and cause you to break so quickly that even antilock breaks or manually pumping your breaks make you skid off the road and into a ditch? Length of sentence was intentional.

Ahhhh, so you're the person who is over-reacting to the weather conditions. Please explain why you have to hit the brakes when someone pulls in front of you, traveling 45mph faster than you?? I live in western NY. We get our share of snow. Sometimes, we get more than our fair share of snow. However, it never fails - the main lane on the expressway will be just fine; in fact, usually, it'll be just wet with trace amounts of slush (of course our vehicles aren't thankful for all the salt) everyone (almost everyone) will be going 55-65 mph with absolutely no problem or concerns about losing control, even in a hard stop. But then, a whole string of cars catches up to the idiot doing 20mph. When we pass you, we're pulling out of the passing lane (which we had to slow down to get into safely, due to slush/snow) and back in front of you as soon as possible so we can get our speed back up and get to where we need to go. Listen... if your driving skills/reaction speed isn't sufficient to keep from going off the road in the conditions you described above, then stay off the highway, please.

Before you rebut this, keep in mind that if someone is capable of making such drastic lane changes and not going off the road themselves, then the fault more likely lies with your vehicle or your driving skills.

 

[rbV5]

Looks like alot of folks stick to the Interstates in this thread.

I've owned 4x4's my whole life, and I wouldn't think of hitting the mountains without chains and at least a shovel in the winter.

It pisses me off that the idiots hit the passes without chains (or refuse to pull over and actually put them on before you really need them) and play bumper cars with those of us actually prepared for winter time travel.

I can't imagine some of the roads I travel in the winter without at least having my chains with me. Places like Les Schwab here in Oregon allow you to buy the chains, and then return them at the end of the season if you don't use them.

 

[imported_goku]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: goku

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: oldsmoboat

Originally posted by: shortylickens
In minnesota: yes.
Anywhere else: probably not.

Though it is amazing mn has no permanent snow and its AFTER thanksgiving.

Back in the day when I worked chain control we'd get people from out of state saying they didn't use or need chains in (INSERT STATE HERE). I'd tell them "welcome to California, now chain it up".

heh-heh...the first time I came to Kahleeforneeya

This is where I lost all respect for you and stopped listening. Look, the name is 'California', not KALHeefornia, not kHahleefornication not anything else. When you're addressing a state or area, have respect and call it by it's proper name. I don't call Wyoming 'whyareyouyawning' despite the fact it's one of the most boring and useless states in this country, so few people live in that hick state that it has the bare minimum number of electoral votes. More likely than not, you're just bitter because california has a huge variety of weather and is a great place to live.

Call it by its proper name. You're just as bad as those stupid apple drones who refer to PCs as 'windoze' or PEEECEEES. :roll:

Actually dipsh!t, when we get a governor who can properly pronounce it, I'll start writing it right...until then, as long as Ah-Nold calls it Kahleeforneeya, so will I...

I still agree with most of the posters who think you're maybe 15 or so...that certainly seems to be your maturity level anyway.

Ever consider the fact that maybe it's his accent instead of his lack of pronounciation skills? He has been here for quite a long time, I don't believe it's because of his unwillingness to learn the english language much like the mexicans that've been coming here from the south...

 

[olds]

Be prepared if you are traveling Interstate 80. Donner Summit is named for the Donner Party who lost many members because of the conditions.
I see this all the time:
Family leaves the Bay area to go to Reno. Drives through Sacramento with a 1/4 tank of fuel figuring they will top off in Reno.
Gets up in the mountains where it snowing to beat the band. Truck jackknives in front of them blocking the road. They are stuck there. Driver from Bay area gets out of vehicle to see what's going on. He's wearing shorts and sandals. He quickly realizes he not dressed for it as his kids get out and start a snowball fight. They get wet.
They are cold so they get back in the vehicle that has the heater running.
Two hours later they are still blocked in, they are hungry and thirsty. Now the vehicle runs out of gas and they have no heat and couldn't move if the road did open back up.
Everyone is now cold, cranky and stuck. Of course Nyack towing will be glad to bring you some fuel for $100, when they can get around to it and after the road opens. If you need a tow figure on about $300 and a couple of hours delay.

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/roadinfo/wntrdriv.htm

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Just get a Subaru STI WRC with diamond stud encrusted snow tires

To match your shoes?

 

[thomsbrain]

there are stages of snow requirements. in almost every snow condition in the real world, the law in CA is that unless you have 4WD/AWD and snow tires, you MUST use chains. that means 4WD vehicles on all-seasons without chains are in violation. there is another stage where you have to have chains no matter what, but they almost never do it, because they just shut down the road instead. so all those SUV's from the city you see driving around up there are in violation of the law because they're using wimpy all-seasons. and that's why you see them in the ditch all the time. 4WD doesn't help you do anything but move faster in the forward direction, and when it comes time to stop or turn...

BTW, in the last blizzard i drove through in my honda accord, i was using chains and passing SUV's on the highway who were struggling heavily. it was great getting out of the parking lot at the ski resort, because there was a Yukon right next to me who was completely stuck and couldn't leave his spot despite all his best efforts. i pulled right out in my little accord and was on my way.

4WD is nice and all, but it is no replacement for chains, and if you need chains anyway, why are you dealing with the mileage and performance penalities of 4WD the rest of the year?

 

[thomsbrain]

Originally posted by: JeepinEd
I do allot of 4-wheeling and am very familiar with 4wd vehicles.
If the road is icy, 4wd will not do much for you.
I have completed very tough trails in the snow, only to slide into an embankment as soon as i hit the fire road (while doing about 6mph). 4wd will do nothing for you when all your tires are sliding on ice. Chains will dig into the ice and give you traction.

One of the main problems is that people don't realize what 4wd means. Here is a brief summary:

AWD/4WD-HI: One tire does the pushing. This tire can be any one of the 4 tires and is usually the one with the least amount of traction. (can be used on any type of road surface).

4WD (usually known as part time 4WD): two tires are pushing. One in front and one in back (again, usually the one with the least amount of traction). This type of 4WD cannot be used on dry pavement.

4WD-Locked: Some vehicles allow for the differentials to lock. This will cause both tires on each locked differential to do the pushing. (usually a bad idea in icy conditions and can't be used on dry pavement).

4WD-Low: This is similar to part time 4wd, but it will connect to a low range gear. This is mainly for severe off-road conditions and will not allow you to go past 25mph, depending on the vehicle.

You should be able to use chains on only 2 tires if you have an AWD/4WD-Hi vehicle. If you have part time 4WD, you would risk damaging your transfer case if you only put chains on 2 tires.

Hope this helps.

PS: I agree that there are too many idiots who think they are invincible because their vehicle has the AWD/4WD sign on it.

hmm, not quite right. AWD systems such as the symmetrical systems in subarus push ALL the wheels all the time, and then are equipped with limited-slip diffs that send power to the wheels with the MOST grip when things get slippy.

asymmetrical systems can be a different story, but even then, they are often equipped with at least one limited-slip diff.

 

[imported_goku]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
there are stages of snow requirements. in almost every snow condition in the real world, the law in CA is that unless you have 4WD/AWD and snow tires, you MUST use chains. that means 4WD vehicles on all-seasons without chains are in violation. there is another stage where you have to have chains no matter what, but they almost never do it, because they just shut down the road instead. so all those SUV's from the city you see driving around up there are in violation of the law because they're using wimpy all-seasons. and that's why you see them in the ditch all the time. 4WD doesn't help you do anything but move faster in the forward direction, and when it comes time to stop or turn...

BTW, in the last blizzard i drove through in my honda accord, i was using chains and passing SUV's on the highway who were struggling heavily. it was great getting out of the parking lot at the ski resort, because there was a Yukon right next to me who was completely stuck and couldn't leave his spot despite all his best efforts. i pulled right out in my little accord and was on my way.

4WD is nice and all, but it is no replacement for chains, and if you need chains anyway, why are you dealing with the mileage and performance penalities of 4WD the rest of the year?

You're wrong.

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/traffops/trucks/trucksize/chains.htm#atd

"Are ?all-weather? or ?all-terrain? tires the same as ?snow? tires?

They may be. Snow tires have the designation ?Mud & Snow? or an abbreviation such as ?M-S,? ?M+S,? or ?M/S? marked on the tire sidewall. Tires without this designation are not considered snow tires. Snow tires must also have at least 6/32-inch (3/16?) of tread depth (about 1/2 of the original tread depth)."

 

[olds]

thomsbrain is incorrect
all weather/all terrain/mud and snow/studded snow tires are all the same thing as far as "snow tires" go in CA.

 

[KillerCharlie]

Originally posted by: shortylickens
In minnesota: yes.
Anywhere else: probably not.

Though it is amazing mn has no permanent snow and its AFTER thanksgiving.

Whoa, wait a minute, what on earth are you talking about? Chains and even studded tires are very ILLEGAL in Minnesota. People in MN are a lot better at driving in the snow and MNDOT has a massive fleet of snowplows. I've lived there 25 years (both in the south and the far north) and have NEVER seen a single vehicle with chains on it. When it gets really bad, people are smart enough to stay home and they close the interstates down.

Also, no snow after Thanksgiving is actually pretty normal. No snow at Christmas, while not common, isn't really rare either. February and March are the snowiest months.

 

[NoShangriLa]

The worst drivers are SUV with 4WD feature because they think that they are invincible. 4WD is great however it is not that much better than front 2 wheel drive in heavy snow condition. 4WD have a slight advantage over FWD in icy condition due to larger wheel/road contact surfaces but not anywhere enough to warrant the speeds that some 4WD owner feels that they can drive. Snow/studded tires helps with traction in the snow, but it doesn't add any value in icy conditions. Chain is not going to give 4WD the ability to corner much quicker than FWD, however it add the ability to safely drive up/down hill and better breaking.

Tire chains vs snow tires comparison.

Hope that the above information will help driver to drive more defensively in now/ice condition.

One pedestrian was kill in my town this week because a 4WD SUV couldn't stop quick enough at a cross walk in 4 inches of snow/ice.

 

[Toastedlightly]

Originally posted by: NoShangriLa
The worst drivers are SUV with 4WD feature because they think that they are invincible. 4WD is great however it is not that much better than front 2 wheel drive in heavy snow condition. 4WD have a slight advantage over FWD in icy condition due to larger wheel/road contact surfaces but not anywhere enough to warrant the speeds that some 4WD owner feels that they can drive. Snow/studded tires helps with traction in the snow, but it doesn't add any value in icy conditions. Chain is not going to give 4WD the ability to corner much quicker than FWD, however it add the ability to safely drive up/down hill and better breaking.

Tire chains vs snow tires comparison.

Hope that the above information will help driver to drive more defensively in now/ice condition.

One pedestrian was kill in my town this week because a 4WD SUV couldn't stop quick enough at a cross walk in 4 inches of snow/ice.

FWD > * in deep snow, as long as one realizes the limitations of turning an braking.

 

[rbV5]

Whoa, wait a minute, what on earth are you talking about? Chains and even studded tires are very ILLEGAL in Minnesota.

Chains are definately legal when you need them;

169.72 TIRE SURFACE; METAL STUDS.
Subdivision 1. Solid rubber, metal, and studded tires; exceptions; permits. (a) Every
solid rubber tire on a vehicle shall have rubber on its entire traction surface at least one inch thick
above the edge of the flange of the entire periphery.
(b) No person shall operate or move on any highway any motor vehicle, trailer, or semitrailer,
having any metal tire in contact with the roadway, except in case of emergency.
(c) Except as provided in this section, no tire on a vehicle moved on a highway shall have on
its periphery any block, stud, flange, cleat, or spike or any other protuberances of any material
other than rubber which projects beyond the tread of the traction surface of the tire. It shall be
permissible to use any of the following on highways: implements of husbandry with tires having
protuberances which will not injure the highway, and tire chains of reasonable proportions upon
any vehicle when required for safety because of snow, ice, or other conditions tending to cause a
vehicle to skid.
.

and even studded tires if you are a non-resident;

Subd. 4. Occasional use of studded tires by nonresidents. Notwithstanding the provisions
of subdivision 1, a person, operating a motor vehicle properly licensed and registered in another
state or province of a foreign country which authorizes the use of tires with metal studs or wire
embedded tires on its highways, may operate the motor vehicle with tires having metal type studs
or with tires having wire embedded therein on the highways of this state while occasionally
within the state, and such use while occasionally within the state is not unlawful

Link

 

[Toastedlightly]

Originally posted by: rbV5

Whoa, wait a minute, what on earth are you talking about? Chains and even studded tires are very ILLEGAL in Minnesota.

Chains are definately legal when you need them;

169.72 TIRE SURFACE; METAL STUDS.
Subdivision 1. Solid rubber, metal, and studded tires; exceptions; permits. (a) Every
solid rubber tire on a vehicle shall have rubber on its entire traction surface at least one inch thick
above the edge of the flange of the entire periphery.
(b) No person shall operate or move on any highway any motor vehicle, trailer, or semitrailer,
having any metal tire in contact with the roadway, except in case of emergency.
(c) Except as provided in this section, no tire on a vehicle moved on a highway shall have on
its periphery any block, stud, flange, cleat, or spike or any other protuberances of any material
other than rubber which projects beyond the tread of the traction surface of the tire. It shall be
permissible to use any of the following on highways: implements of husbandry with tires having
protuberances which will not injure the highway, and tire chains of reasonable proportions upon
any vehicle when required for safety because of snow, ice, or other conditions tending to cause a
vehicle to skid.
.

and even studded tires if you are a non-resident;

Subd. 4. Occasional use of studded tires by nonresidents. Notwithstanding the provisions
of subdivision 1, a person, operating a motor vehicle properly licensed and registered in another
state or province of a foreign country which authorizes the use of tires with metal studs or wire
embedded tires on its highways, may operate the motor vehicle with tires having metal type studs
or with tires having wire embedded therein on the highways of this state while occasionally
within the state, and such use while occasionally within the state is not unlawful

Link

As a resident, I've never seen them used but I can see why they would have that provision in there.