Do you need chains if you've got 4WD?

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
So, basically, you just admitted to talking out your a$$ with no knowledge of what you were talking about? Typical Goku thread...



BUT, actually, you may have been right...From the Caltrans website:

"During the winter months, motorists may encounter traction chain controls in the mountain areas within California. When chain controls are established, signs will be posted along the road indicating the type of requirement. There are three requirements in California.

Requirement One (R1): Chains, traction devices or snow tires are required on the drive axle of all vehicles except four wheel/ all wheel drive vehicles.

Requirement Two (R2): Chains or traction devices are required on all vehicles except four wheel/ all wheel drive vehicles with snow-tread tires on all four wheels.
(NOTE: Four wheel/all wheel drive vehicles must carry traction devices in chain control areas.)

Requirement Three (R3): Chains or traction devices are required on all vehicles, no exceptions."

QFT

That's the way it works. I used to live in city that was right on the annual snow line. A friend of mine used to carry one set of chains and one set of V-bars, because it the snow was so bad that he had to chain up all four he wouldn't care that the V-bars are illegal.

Oh, and as a C&D editor once found out: the AWD in the Evo can't save it on snow and ice when used with three season tires.

Edit:
Oh yeah, on "R3" the freeways are usually closed, and the roads are "officially" closed. Most people who proceed just drive over the gates because they're underneath the snow.

 

[Kelemvor]

CHains are sometimes required in mountain passes (like Tahoe) because tires themselves sometimes can't grip the road. Chains, on the other hand, bite through the snow and do give you extra traction when accesllerating as well as slowing.

My '02 durango can change from 2-wheel to 4-wheel on the fly up to 45mph. Also has 4-low which you need to slow way down for.

 

[JeepinEd]

I do allot of 4-wheeling and am very familiar with 4wd vehicles.
If the road is icy, 4wd will not do much for you.
I have completed very tough trails in the snow, only to slide into an embankment as soon as i hit the fire road (while doing about 6mph). 4wd will do nothing for you when all your tires are sliding on ice. Chains will dig into the ice and give you traction.

One of the main problems is that people don't realize what 4wd means. Here is a brief summary:

AWD/4WD-HI: One tire does the pushing. This tire can be any one of the 4 tires and is usually the one with the least amount of traction. (can be used on any type of road surface).

4WD (usually known as part time 4WD): two tires are pushing. One in front and one in back (again, usually the one with the least amount of traction). This type of 4WD cannot be used on dry pavement.

4WD-Locked: Some vehicles allow for the differentials to lock. This will cause both tires on each locked differential to do the pushing. (usually a bad idea in icy conditions and can't be used on dry pavement).

4WD-Low: This is similar to part time 4wd, but it will connect to a low range gear. This is mainly for severe off-road conditions and will not allow you to go past 25mph, depending on the vehicle.

You should be able to use chains on only 2 tires if you have an AWD/4WD-Hi vehicle. If you have part time 4WD, you would risk damaging your transfer case if you only put chains on 2 tires.

Hope this helps.

PS: I agree that there are too many idiots who think they are invincible because their vehicle has the AWD/4WD sign on it.

 

[mercanucaribe]

JeepinEd, AWD/4WD-hi does that mean that only one wheel pushes the car-- that's a common misconception. All wheels get equal torque, whether on dry ground or mud, or whatever. The problem is that when one tire is on ice or mud, its traction is drastically reduced, which reduces the torque to the opposite wheel to the same amount. Same for 4wd with the center differential locked.

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130169


Also, having open differentials that split torque evenly is better than a clutch pack like my Grand has, IMO. With the regular open diffs, on a surface like sand you are less likely to dig in, and on slippery stuff less likely to break loose. With my system, the rear wheels have to slip before any power is transferred to the front, which can mean digging in to sand or mud.

 

[JeepinEd]

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
JeepinEd, AWD/4WD-hi does that mean that only one wheel pushes the car-- that's a common misconception. All wheels get equal torque, whether on dry ground or mud, or whatever. The problem is that when one tire is on ice or mud, its traction is drastically reduced, which reduces the torque to the opposite wheel to the same amount. Same for 4wd with the center differential locked.

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130169


Also, having open differentials that split torque evenly is better than a clutch pack like my Grand has, IMO. With the regular open diffs, on a surface like sand you are less likely to dig in, and on slippery stuff less likely to break loose. With my system, the rear wheels have to slip before any power is transferred to the front, which can mean digging in to sand or mud.

Technically, you are correct. I oversimplified things a bit so as not to make the post too complicated. In a real world situation, where there is limited traction, you will still have only one wheel with most of the power going to it.


The link you posted has a much more detailed explanation. Good find.

 

[Kalvin00]

Usually they close I80 in the sierras if it gets to the point of everyone needing chains.

 

[Toastedlightly]

Originally posted by: shortylickens
In minnesota: yes.
Anywhere else: probably not.

Though it is amazing mn has no permanent snow and its AFTER thanksgiving.

I know. But you /need/ them? I've done just fine my 3 years of driving w/o them (and in RWD 70's vehicles nonetheless).

 

[Toastedlightly]

Originally posted by: JeepinEd

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
JeepinEd, AWD/4WD-hi does that mean that only one wheel pushes the car-- that's a common misconception. All wheels get equal torque, whether on dry ground or mud, or whatever. The problem is that when one tire is on ice or mud, its traction is drastically reduced, which reduces the torque to the opposite wheel to the same amount. Same for 4wd with the center differential locked.

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=130169


Also, having open differentials that split torque evenly is better than a clutch pack like my Grand has, IMO. With the regular open diffs, on a surface like sand you are less likely to dig in, and on slippery stuff less likely to break loose. With my system, the rear wheels have to slip before any power is transferred to the front, which can mean digging in to sand or mud.

Technically, you are correct. I oversimplified things a bit so as not to make the post too complicated. In a real world situation, where there is limited traction, you will still have only one wheel with most of the power going to it.


The link you posted has a much more detailed explanation. Good find.

The good old positraction differential. I haven't seen many cars w/ them nowadays though. (both my car/truck from the 70s had it, great thing to have in winter).

 

[olds]

Originally posted by: shortylickens
In minnesota: yes.
Anywhere else: probably not.

Though it is amazing mn has no permanent snow and its AFTER thanksgiving.

Back in the day when I worked chain control we'd get people from out of state saying they didn't use or need chains in (INSERT STATE HERE). I'd tell them "welcome to California, now chain it up".

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly
The good old positraction differential. I haven't seen many cars w/ them nowadays though. (both my car/truck from the 70s had it, great thing to have in winter).

The Mustang has a true limited slip ("Traction Lock", Ford's name for what GM called the "Positraction") in GT models.

They aren't popular today due to the availability of traction control systems and the fact that a clutch-type LSD can invoke some interesting handling characteristics (for example, a clutch-type LSD ensures that both rear wheels will spin in snow or on ice, which means that not only do you not go forward, the driven axle swerves sideways). With an open differential, at least the wheel that is not spinning provides lateral traction.

ZV

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: oldsmoboat

Originally posted by: shortylickens
In minnesota: yes.
Anywhere else: probably not.

Though it is amazing mn has no permanent snow and its AFTER thanksgiving.

Back in the day when I worked chain control we'd get people from out of state saying they didn't use or need chains in (INSERT STATE HERE). I'd tell them "welcome to California, now chain it up".

heh-heh...the first time I came to Kahleeforneeya, we were traveling in an old 50 Chevy panel truck with Wyoming plates. We had just driven across Wyoming, Utan, and Nevade in heavy snow, and the truck was heavily encrusted in it...We got partway up Donner summit, and pulled over in the chain area...The CHP took one look at us, and told us "Get on outta here, you're blocking my chain area...drive safely" and off we went. Surprisingly, the snow wasn't very bad...only a couple of inches on the roadway, and not al that slick...IF you're used to driving in it...
Living in the central valley, and commuting for years into the bay area, I always said that if the Altamont pass ever got snow, I was staying home, because the bay area people had enough trouble driving on dry roads, I WASN'T gonna be on the Altamont with them...

 

[imported_goku]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: oldsmoboat

Originally posted by: shortylickens
In minnesota: yes.
Anywhere else: probably not.

Though it is amazing mn has no permanent snow and its AFTER thanksgiving.

Back in the day when I worked chain control we'd get people from out of state saying they didn't use or need chains in (INSERT STATE HERE). I'd tell them "welcome to California, now chain it up".

heh-heh...the first time I came to Kahleeforneeya

This is where I lost all respect for you and stopped listening. Look, the name is 'California', not KALHeefornia, not kHahleefornication not anything else. When you're addressing a state or area, have respect and call it by it's proper name. I don't call Wyoming 'whyareyouyawning' despite the fact it's one of the most boring and useless states in this country, so few people live in that hick state that it has the bare minimum number of electoral votes. More likely than not, you're just bitter because california has a huge variety of weather and is a great place to live.

Call it by its proper name. You're just as bad as those stupid apple drones who refer to PCs as 'windoze' or PEEECEEES. :roll:

 

[bobsmith1492]

Where the heck do you live to need chains? If you're in the US and not in the mountains, you probably don't unless you're in a really rural area with no snowplows.

 

[sandorski]

AWD>>>>>><<<<<<4WD

 

[shortylickens]

Originally posted by: goku
This is where I lost all respect for you and stopped listening. Look, the name is 'California', not KALHeefornia, not kHahleefornication not anything else. When you're addressing a state or area, have respect and call it by it's proper name. I don't call Wyoming 'whyareyouyawning' despite the fact it's one of the most boring and useless states in this country, so few people live in that hick state that it has the bare minimum number of electoral votes. More likely than not, you're just bitter because california has a huge variety of weather and is a great place to live.

Call it by its proper name. You're just as bad as those stupid apple drones who refer to PCs as 'windoze' or PEEECEEES. :roll:

Already you've liead about 3 times. Why should we pay attention to you?
And why do californicans think its OK for them to "break all the rules" but yet they are entitled to order someone else around?

Sorry bud, I can already tell by your clueless attitude you have not served in the military and arent likely a police officer. You dont get to issue orders to anyone.

And every time you spoiled fools start this silly debate we always make you look bad. For the good of the handful of decent Anandtech regulars, please show the maximum maturity you are capable of and dont start it again.

 

[Clocker]

4wd may not help when stopping on ice but it sure has helped me when i had to to drive up a snowy hill or embankment. BTW I use to live in South Dakota.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: goku

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: oldsmoboat

Originally posted by: shortylickens
In minnesota: yes.
Anywhere else: probably not.

Though it is amazing mn has no permanent snow and its AFTER thanksgiving.

Back in the day when I worked chain control we'd get people from out of state saying they didn't use or need chains in (INSERT STATE HERE). I'd tell them "welcome to California, now chain it up".

heh-heh...the first time I came to Kahleeforneeya

This is where I lost all respect for you and stopped listening. Look, the name is 'California', not KALHeefornia, not kHahleefornication not anything else. When you're addressing a state or area, have respect and call it by it's proper name. I don't call Wyoming 'whyareyouyawning' despite the fact it's one of the most boring and useless states in this country, so few people live in that hick state that it has the bare minimum number of electoral votes. More likely than not, you're just bitter because california has a huge variety of weather and is a great place to live.

Call it by its proper name. You're just as bad as those stupid apple drones who refer to PCs as 'windoze' or PEEECEEES. :roll:

Actually dipsh!t, when we get a governor who can properly pronounce it, I'll start writing it right...until then, as long as Ah-Nold calls it Kahleeforneeya, so will I...

I still agree with most of the posters who think you're maybe 15 or so...that certainly seems to be your maturity level anyway.

 

[Kalvin00]

Originally posted by: sandorski
AWD<<<<<<<<<<<<4WD

I fixed this, you had an error.

 

[Raduque]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly
The good old positraction differential. I haven't seen many cars w/ them nowadays though. (both my car/truck from the 70s had it, great thing to have in winter).

The Mustang has a true limited slip ("Traction Lock", Ford's name for what GM called the "Positraction") in GT models.

They aren't popular today due to the availability of traction control systems and the fact that a clutch-type LSD can invoke some interesting handling characteristics (for example, a clutch-type LSD ensures that both rear wheels will spin in snow or on ice, which means that not only do you not go forward, the driven axle swerves sideways). With an open differential, at least the wheel that is not spinning provides lateral traction.

ZV

What did they call this in 01? Whatever it was, I'm pretty sure it's an option that's on my dad's truck. When put into 4HI both rear tires will spin, but only one does in front. In 4LO, all 4 will spin, and when that happens, you darn sure ain't goin' anywhere.

Also, on my dad's truck, you have to come to a completely stop to switch into 4wd, or the front tires won't lockup. You can switch from 4wd to 2wd on the fly.

Edit: 3 years in WV, 4 years in Alaska, never used chains at all. Never had 4wd in Alaska, we just learned how to drive. My old truck was 2wd with a LSD rear, and my parent's van wasn't.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Kalvin00

Originally posted by: sandorski
AWD<<<<<<<<<<<<4WD

I fixed this, you had an error.

negative, you broke it.

 

[xanis]

Hardly anyone uses chains, at least that I've seen here in the Northeast. My parents bought a GMC Jimmy new in 2000 and have used 4WD MAYBE once a year. The truck is RWD and it handles fine in the snow with it's hefty all-season tires. I think if your tires are decent, and you don't mash the gas pedal, you'll be fine and won't need chains.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly
The good old positraction differential. I haven't seen many cars w/ them nowadays though. (both my car/truck from the 70s had it, great thing to have in winter).

The Mustang has a true limited slip ("Traction Lock", Ford's name for what GM called the "Positraction") in GT models.

They aren't popular today due to the availability of traction control systems and the fact that a clutch-type LSD can invoke some interesting handling characteristics (for example, a clutch-type LSD ensures that both rear wheels will spin in snow or on ice, which means that not only do you not go forward, the driven axle swerves sideways). With an open differential, at least the wheel that is not spinning provides lateral traction.

ZV

What did they call this in 01? Whatever it was, I'm pretty sure it's an option that's on my dad's truck. When put into 4HI both rear tires will spin, but only one does in front. In 4LO, all 4 will spin, and when that happens, you darn sure ain't goin' anywhere.

Ford's factory limited slip in trucks is usually just called a "limited slip", but technically any Ford factory slimited slip differential used in a live axle is some variant of "Traction-Lock". "Traction-Lock" is just Ford's branding for their limited slip.

IIRC, the limited slip rear differential is optional on Ford's pickups, whether 4WD or 2WD. From my experience, Fords with 4WD that have a Low-Range option also lock all three differentials when in 4LO (center, front, and rear).

ZV

 

[yhelothar]

Just get a Subaru STI WRC with diamond stud encrusted snow tires

 

[Vic]

Caltrans exempts AWD/4WD from having to put on chains if you have snow tires on. I found that out personally once after a 6 hour wait in a chain-up line.

If you think that AWD/4WD has no braking benefits, then you must only drive auto trans.

For snow, AWD > 4WD (and I own both).

 

[I Saw OJ]

My parents have a cabin in the mountains. Its not some backwoods cabin, its in a nice little town by a lake here in California and every winter the CHP makes my dad put on his chains when he goes up there even though hes got a GMC Yukon with 4WD and snow tires.