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Do you follow the standards for time, date notation etc?

D

DRavisher

Senior member
I am guessing there are a lot of Americans in here. I am not trying to be an a** hole to Americans here, but I really do feel you guys mess around alot with standards, units of measure, or pretty much anything that could be logical and unambiguous. Not to say Americans suck, but in this regard the general population seems to use a pretty messed up system.

1. I do realize that using pounds, feet etc. seems natural to you, but do you not see the merit (superiority?) of the SI system? That is, if you were to make an objective choice, what system of units would you choose, SI or Imperial (punds, feet etc.)?

2. Now to the standards of notation. We all agree on how to measure time, but we don't seem to agree on how to present the information. AFAIK dates are written in the opposite order lot's of places (here in Norway it is normally written dd-mm-yyyy). Americans like to jumble it up a bit, with mm-dd-yyyy. That is, Americans use neither the most significant nor the least significant value first. There is a good definition for how date is written, it is in the form yyyy-mm-dd, while time is in the form hh:mm:ss (hh from 00-24, never AM/PM). This is defined in ISO 8601. Is this system not logical? Both date and time is written with the most significant value first. There are no letters in there making the time ambiguous with AM/PM. Is this not reasonable?

3. Then comes the annoying binary prefixes. kilo has never, ever been defined as 1024, mega has never been defined as 1048576 and so on. 1 kB is, and has always been 1000 bytes. I have not found any standard in a major agency stating otherwise (though I may be wrong). Anyhow, nowadays both IEEE and IEC (60027-2) have defined binary prefixes, so that 1 KiB = 1024 bytes, 1 MiB = 1048576 and so on. Do you use this standard? If not, why?

I just needed to air this. I am very curious how many people actually use these standard notations, and how many even know that there is a defined standard. Please comment, unless I have offended you or something (not my intent).
 
1. I can absolutely see the merit of the SI system. The Imperial system is just the established standard here in the U.S. The effort to remove the current system and replace it with a new one would be extremely costly with minimal benefits. In areas where it matters (scientific research, some engineering), SI system is used even in the U.S.

2. Again, it depends on the application. Moving away from the AM/PM system would be costly with minimal gain. When it matters, international standard formats are used here in the U.S.
 
metric was invented by some commie french pansies after our country was founded, why would we want to use that crap? plus the fact that converting offers almost no gain and lots of cost. why bother?
 
Worrying about how I write dates and time is not even on the list of things that I could be bothered to worry about. As for the metric system yes I do wish we were on it but we're not and it does not seem to have brought down the republic over the past 230 years so I'll pass on worrying about that as well.
 
Originally posted by: DRavisher
Not to say Americans suck, but in this regard the general population seems to use a pretty messed up system.
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You have to remember that we were using these systems far BEFORE the standards were there. Our industrial revolution came in the old standards. Thus, absolutely everything is based on the old standards. Countries with industrial revolutions after the new standards have nothing difficult to change. What you are talking about is a tremendous headache for everyone and the entire destruction and rebuilding of the entire country - absolutely everything. It just isn't going to happen. And there is no strong reason to make the switch either. New things that are built will gradually switch standards, but old ones will not be torn down simply to rebuild it with a different standard.
1. I do realize that using pounds, feet etc. seems natural to you, but do you not see the merit (superiority?) of the SI system? That is, if you were to make an objective choice, what system of units would you choose, SI or Imperial (punds, feet etc.)?
Click to expand...
SI has some very good points. But so does the Imerial system. I personally would favor a switch to SI for almost everything (Fahrenheit is still superior to Celsius though). If I were to make an objective choice (ignoring the costs of transitioning), I'd create a system that takes the best of both worlds. The fact is, the SI system isn't perfect either.

Some random examples. For most everyday things, the meter isn't a useful measurement. You are far more likely to use km, cm, or mm than m in a measurement. So, I'd make the meter a better size. And heck, who ever uses deka, hecto, or deci? No one. The SI system is not based on 10 in practice. It is based on 1000. Thus, forget the silly notion that it is based on 10. Cooking is wonderful in the Imperial system. Want to double a recipe? Just switch the unit names up one size (since they are almost all based on factors of 2), and keep the numbers the same.

2. Now to the standards of notation. We all agree on how to measure time, but we don't seem to agree on how to present the information. AFAIK dates are written in the opposite order lot's of places (here in Norway it is normally written dd-mm-yyyy). Americans like to jumble it up a bit, with mm-dd-yyyy. That is, Americans use neither the most significant nor the least significant value first. There is a good definition for how date is written, it is in the form yyyy-mm-dd, while time is in the form hh:mm:ss (hh from 00-24, never AM/PM). This is defined in ISO 8601. Is this system not logical? Both date and time is written with the most significant value first. There are no letters in there making the time ambiguous with AM/PM. Is this not reasonable?
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The most significant number is NOT the year in most uses. The important numbers in conversation are the day and the month. If I said I want to meet you on June 16, you would understand that didn't refer to the year 2002. Thus year first is not useful for most people. Then we have the choice do we use (A) the sixteenth day of June or (B) June 16. The latter is so much more efficient to say. We speak it that way, so we write it that way. MM, DD.

As for the time, most clocks don't display 24 hrs, so until that changes, I like the times to match what the clock shows. But I wouldn't mind switching.

And yet, in neither of your beloved dates or times are they based on multiples of 10, 100, or even 1000. Why do you love them if they aren't SI-like dates and times? Why not 10 months a year? Why not 10 hours a day? I seem to see a hypocrit.
3. Then comes the annoying binary prefixes. kilo has never, ever been defined as 1024, mega has never been defined as 1048576 and so on. 1 kB is, and has always been 1000 bytes. I have not found any standard in a major agency stating otherwise (though I may be wrong). Anyhow, nowadays both IEEE and IEC (60027-2) have defined binary prefixes, so that 1 KiB = 1024 bytes, 1 MiB = 1048576 and so on. Do you use this standard? If not, why?
Click to expand...
I agree with you on the binary crap. Now that the standards are there, lets switch. Many devices already use the proper IEEE standard. About the only exception is Windows displays of memory or disk usage. And the devices that do use it will be obsolete in a few years and replaced anyways. The cost to switch to this standard is minimal. Thus, we should switch.
 
arcenite: Well, I simply hate ambiguous notations. In Norway, as I said, dates are normally written dd-mm-yyyy (this has been decided by our "language council"). We do however recognize the ISO 8601 standard, and I therefore use that instead.

Also, I do understand that switching would be very difficult, so I don't expect all Americans to switch to the international standards (at least not overnight). I do however find it interesting to see what those who use these systems think of the standards. Also, switching isn't that hard for time and date notation, since no ambiguation would be introduced in such a process. I don't really care what Americans use in the US (except when I'm on vacation there or whatever 🙂), but the ambiguous notations really are annoying on the WWW. I really do think that any website that considers itself just a little international should use the ISO standard.

Also, do you have any idea how annoying it is to be reading a forum, article or what ever, having no ide what the date 01/12/2005 means? It's really frustrating. Had everyone but the US used the ISO 8601 standard it wouldn't be a problem, but the combination of dd-mm-yyyy in Europe and mm-dd-yyyy really sucks (here everyone's to blame).

dullard: I don't think I am a hypocrit. Sure I would love a 10-base time system, but it's pretty unlikely that such a change will occur any time soon, and I am most concerned with everyone using the same notations, and the notations that are most natural to use IMO is ISO standards. Weather the SI system is the very best that could be is questionable, but it is the standard that is used today, and that is why I like it (and a 10-base system is much easier to work with IMO). As I said, I am most concerned with everyone using the same, and in this case the SI system is the logical choice.

Anyhow, thanks for the replies. It's good to see that at least some see the merit of international standards in this day and age 🙂
 
they tried decimal time. it failed miserably.


you do realise the only reason metric is popular is because napoleon forced it on all the countries he conqured, just like he did the civil law. it'd be like everyone accepting something hitler did.
 
Originally posted by: DRavisher
arcenite: Well, I simply hate ambiguous notations. In Norway, as I said, dates are normally written dd-mm-yyyy (this has been decided by our "language council"). We do however recognize the ISO 8601 standard, and I therefore use that instead.

Also, I do understand that switching would be very difficult, so I don't expect all Americans to switch to the international standards (at least not overnight). I do however find it interesting to see what those who use these systems think of the standards. Also, switching isn't that hard for time and date notation, since no ambiguation would be introduced in such a process. I don't really care what Americans use in the US (except when I'm on vacation there or whatever 🙂), but the ambiguous notations really are annoying on the WWW. I really do think that any website that considers itself just a little international should use the ISO standard.

Also, do you have any idea how annoying it is to be reading a forum, article or what ever, having no ide what the date 01/12/2005 means? It's really frustrating. Had everyone but the US used the ISO 8601 standard it wouldn't be a problem, but the combination of dd-mm-yyyy in Europe and mm-dd-yyyy really sucks (here everyone's to blame).

dullard: I don't think I am a hypocrit. Sure I would love a 10-base time system, but it's pretty unlikely that such a change will occur any time soon, and I am most concerned with everyone using the same notations, and the notations that are most natural to use IMO is ISO standards. Weather the SI system is the very best that could be is questionable, but it is the standard that is used today, and that is why I like it (and a 10-base system is much easier to work with IMO). As I said, I am most concerned with everyone using the same, and in this case the SI system is the logical choice.

Anyhow, thanks for the replies. It's good to see that at least some see the merit of international standards in this day and age 🙂
Click to expand...

No offense meant but I thank God we don't have a 'language council' deciding stuff like this for us. Sounds too much like the Borg lifestyle for me.
 
i definately wish we used the metric system, since everything in science is metric, and it gets really confusing going from metric and back all the time.
 
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
In regards to #2, I prefer the military system, DD MMMM YYYY as in 17 June 06.
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If you're going to do it that way, then just use three characters for the month; 14JUN06


Another military way of recording time is by using a date/time group:


141605Z JUN 06

day|time (zulu), 3 letter month, year
 
Originally posted by: Linflas
Originally posted by: DRavisher
arcenite: Well, I simply hate ambiguous notations. In Norway, as I said, dates are normally written dd-mm-yyyy (this has been decided by our "language council"). We do however recognize the ISO 8601 standard, and I therefore use that instead.

Also, I do understand that switching would be very difficult, so I don't expect all Americans to switch to the international standards (at least not overnight). I do however find it interesting to see what those who use these systems think of the standards. Also, switching isn't that hard for time and date notation, since no ambiguation would be introduced in such a process. I don't really care what Americans use in the US (except when I'm on vacation there or whatever 🙂), but the ambiguous notations really are annoying on the WWW. I really do think that any website that considers itself just a little international should use the ISO standard.

Also, do you have any idea how annoying it is to be reading a forum, article or what ever, having no ide what the date 01/12/2005 means? It's really frustrating. Had everyone but the US used the ISO 8601 standard it wouldn't be a problem, but the combination of dd-mm-yyyy in Europe and mm-dd-yyyy really sucks (here everyone's to blame).

dullard: I don't think I am a hypocrit. Sure I would love a 10-base time system, but it's pretty unlikely that such a change will occur any time soon, and I am most concerned with everyone using the same notations, and the notations that are most natural to use IMO is ISO standards. Weather the SI system is the very best that could be is questionable, but it is the standard that is used today, and that is why I like it (and a 10-base system is much easier to work with IMO). As I said, I am most concerned with everyone using the same, and in this case the SI system is the logical choice.

Anyhow, thanks for the replies. It's good to see that at least some see the merit of international standards in this day and age 🙂
Click to expand...

No offense meant but I thank God we don't have a 'language council' deciding stuff like this for us. Sounds too much like the Borg lifestyle for me.
Click to expand...

No offense, but I'm willing to bet that the US has at least 100x the amount of boards/councils/committies/think-tanks/focus-groups/etc deciding an exorbitant amount of trivial "standards" for our daily use than does Norway.
 
Let me add that lat/long coordinates are annoying. Everyone needs to use UTMs for point references. Much more precise.

The military standard is not DD MMMM YY -- it's DD MMM YY. You don't write out the full month name (except for May, of course). I prefer 24 hour time so that I don't have to muck with AM and PM, which is tedious.
 
I'm telling you guys, YYYY.MM.DD is where it's at. (along with HH:MM:SS.S)

It's easy to read and best of all, effortless chronologically sortable. The 1st or 2nd thing I do on a PC where I have to work for any amount of time is change the Regional options to support this.


The current date/time: 2006.06.14 11:09:24.2

( btw, it's my wife and my Anniversary today! 😱 )
 
Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
Originally posted by: Linflas
Originally posted by: DRavisher
arcenite: Well, I simply hate ambiguous notations. In Norway, as I said, dates are normally written dd-mm-yyyy (this has been decided by our "language council"). We do however recognize the ISO 8601 standard, and I therefore use that instead.

Also, I do understand that switching would be very difficult, so I don't expect all Americans to switch to the international standards (at least not overnight). I do however find it interesting to see what those who use these systems think of the standards. Also, switching isn't that hard for time and date notation, since no ambiguation would be introduced in such a process. I don't really care what Americans use in the US (except when I'm on vacation there or whatever 🙂), but the ambiguous notations really are annoying on the WWW. I really do think that any website that considers itself just a little international should use the ISO standard.

Also, do you have any idea how annoying it is to be reading a forum, article or what ever, having no ide what the date 01/12/2005 means? It's really frustrating. Had everyone but the US used the ISO 8601 standard it wouldn't be a problem, but the combination of dd-mm-yyyy in Europe and mm-dd-yyyy really sucks (here everyone's to blame).

dullard: I don't think I am a hypocrit. Sure I would love a 10-base time system, but it's pretty unlikely that such a change will occur any time soon, and I am most concerned with everyone using the same notations, and the notations that are most natural to use IMO is ISO standards. Weather the SI system is the very best that could be is questionable, but it is the standard that is used today, and that is why I like it (and a 10-base system is much easier to work with IMO). As I said, I am most concerned with everyone using the same, and in this case the SI system is the logical choice.

Anyhow, thanks for the replies. It's good to see that at least some see the merit of international standards in this day and age 🙂
Click to expand...

No offense meant but I thank God we don't have a 'language council' deciding stuff like this for us. Sounds too much like the Borg lifestyle for me.
Click to expand...

No offense, but I'm willing to bet that the US has at least 100x the amount of boards/councils/committies/think-tanks/focus-groups/etc deciding an exorbitant amount of trivial "standards" for our daily use than does Norway.
Click to expand...

May be true but the public at large generally ignores it unless some pinhead tries to make it law. Metric is actually a pretty good example of this. The government can encourage it all it wants and no one cares but look what happened when they attempted to actually impose it by law.
 
Originally posted by: DRavisher
I am guessing there are a lot of Americans in here. I am not trying to be an a** hole to Americans here, but I really do feel you guys mess around alot with standards, units of measure, or pretty much anything that could be logical and unambiguous. Not to say Americans suck, but in this regard the general population seems to use a pretty messed up system.

1. I do realize that using pounds, feet etc. seems natural to you, but do you not see the merit (superiority?) of the SI system? That is, if you were to make an objective choice, what system of units would you choose, SI or Imperial (punds, feet etc.)?

2. Now to the standards of notation. We all agree on how to measure time, but we don't seem to agree on how to present the information. AFAIK dates are written in the opposite order lot's of places (here in Norway it is normally written dd-mm-yyyy). Americans like to jumble it up a bit, with mm-dd-yyyy. That is, Americans use neither the most significant nor the least significant value first. There is a good definition for how date is written, it is in the form yyyy-mm-dd, while time is in the form hh:mm:ss (hh from 00-24, never AM/PM). This is defined in ISO 8601. Is this system not logical? Both date and time is written with the most significant value first. There are no letters in there making the time ambiguous with AM/PM. Is this not reasonable?

3. Then comes the annoying binary prefixes. kilo has never, ever been defined as 1024, mega has never been defined as 1048576 and so on. 1 kB is, and has always been 1000 bytes. I have not found any standard in a major agency stating otherwise (though I may be wrong). Anyhow, nowadays both IEEE and IEC (60027-2) have defined binary prefixes, so that 1 KiB = 1024 bytes, 1 MiB = 1048576 and so on. Do you use this standard? If not, why?

I just needed to air this. I am very curious how many people actually use these standard notations, and how many even know that there is a defined standard. Please comment, unless I have offended you or something (not my intent).
Click to expand...

1. We're just so used to our system that it seems logical to us. I'm fine in theory with teaching kids the metric system from day one which we more or less have done for a long time. However, most of us object to changing all the signs on financial grounds, so we're very, very slowly (rather organically) moving to metric on pretty much every standard except road distances. Expect americans in 100 years to use all SI units except kilometers. Miles will still be around, kinda like in britain the 'stone' is still alive and well.

2. Same goes for time. We're used to it, because we started that way centuries ago. We're slowly, naturally moving towards the 'real' standard, but there will be a LONG transition, because there is no rational reason to psh to spend money to change (and convince people to change)

3. Binary. We invented computers, and when engineers and scientists started working with large enough numbers, kilo, mega and giga came into use because those values are roughly 1000. Simply put, they were close enough for engineering purposes. Only recently (late 90's) did the error become large enough to matter, and shock of shocks, we developed a rational system. Like all the other standards, we don't bother with any central agency, so we're slowly changing over.

That's all. There's no conspiracy, no hatred or lack of reason. Just habit and no real rational impetus for us to change the standard.
 
You're completely wrong on number 3. You don't know where those figures came from and you shouldn't talk about things you don't know. 1 KB has ALWAYS been 2^10 bytes. There is no "now days" about it. Deal with it.
 
Yep, I use the military date style. Its always funny when I have to sign off on something and you see this list of signatures with dates and mine looks completely out of place.

14JUN06

I also still write in all caps. Some things the military really ingrains in you...

Mark
 
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