Do you feel aggrieved?

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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,457
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It did. Except not for blacks, Mexican braceros, Appalachian poor, or, in many different ways, women.

But it was a shiny, happy time in the newly minted suburbs. And the cars were cool.

View attachment 73335
You are so cruel. There was a time when most of my waking hours were consumed by the flame of desire for just those very two items. Actually it was the '57 same model that did it for me. It had a woman's eyes like Cleopatra. I had an asp that wanted to be the one to bite her.

Red high heals, God Almighty.
 
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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
25,661
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I recently watched Fucker Carlson spew shite about Zelensky, against my better judgement. So, YEAH, I'm aggrieved. Festivus can't come too soon.
Speaking of Rupert ... Tf is this bullshit... Not saying there is a connection to Fox programming but if there WAS .. I wouldnt be super surprised.

(could Rupert be the longest running kgb asset in history?)



"In mid-February, as Combe had been relaxing on a holiday cruise, satisfied that Fischer was in Iraq collecting the promised funds, Fischer had in fact been in New York, trying to contact Rupert Murdoch with an ''incredible'' story.

Fischer had flown to London on February 20 where he held three meetings with Murdoch over the next few days, providing him with a lengthy statement regarding his discussions with Hartley, Combe and Whitlam and the proposed Iraqi gift of $350,000.

Within days of the first of the Iraqi breakfast stories running in The Australian, rumours abounded that News Ltd was involved in more than just the publication of the stories but also in their creation. But it was not until the day before the national executive meeting began that News Ltd acknowledged this, in an article headed ''The Iraki breakfast affair and News Ltd''
."
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,457
6,689
126
Speaking of Rupert ... Tf is this bullshit... Not saying there is a connection to Fox programming but if there WAS .. I wouldnt be super surprised.

(could Rupert be the longest running kgb asset in history?)



"In mid-February, as Combe had been relaxing on a holiday cruise, satisfied that Fischer was in Iraq collecting the promised funds, Fischer had in fact been in New York, trying to contact Rupert Murdoch with an ''incredible'' story.

Fischer had flown to London on February 20 where he held three meetings with Murdoch over the next few days, providing him with a lengthy statement regarding his discussions with Hartley, Combe and Whitlam and the proposed Iraqi gift of $350,000.

Within days of the first of the Iraqi breakfast stories running in The Australian, rumours abounded that News Ltd was involved in more than just the publication of the stories but also in their creation. But it was not until the day before the national executive meeting began that News Ltd acknowledged this, in an article headed ''The Iraki breakfast affair and News Ltd''
."
You seem be be aggrieved that somebody like Murdoch can happen when it seems like a problem that could be easily fixed. A high tax on wealth and limits on corporate acquisitions would help increase the prevalence of broader perspective news. Public financing with no editorial control designed to promote investigative journalism could promote citizen awareness of issues about which self serving interests would prefer kept in the dark. But none of this happens or happened because nobody wants to make waves and those who do are crushed.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,240
136
Nope, not aggrieved, at least not in a personal sense. In other words, I don't think my life has been diminished in any way by "the system." Any serious problems I've had have been more of my own making than anything else.

Politically speaking of course, if we're talking about the nation as a whole, sure I'm aggrieved. We're fucking falling apart because people are out of touch with reality.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,457
6,689
126
Nope, not aggrieved, at least not in a personal sense. In other words, I don't think my life has been diminished in any way by "the system." Any serious problems I've had have been more of my own making than anything else.

Politically speaking of course, if we're talking about the nation as a whole, sure I'm aggrieved. We're fucking falling apart because people are out of touch with reality.

You don't think people are out of touch with reality due to some sort of problem with the system?
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,240
136
You don't think people are out of touch with reality due to some sort of problem with the system?

Not unless tribalism, which goes all the way back to primordial times, and weak critical thinking skills, are functions of the system. So long as a conspiracy narrative has the "right" good guys and bad guys, people who dislike the bad guys in the narrative will want to believe it.

What has changed that has caused so many people to buy into conspiracy theories and other swill is one technological invention: the internet. It has increased exposure to political lies by at least an order of magnitude, if not two orders of magnitude.

It's a sad comment on human nature, but unfortunately true, that all people needed to accept bullshit was to be exposed to enough of it.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,457
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Not unless tribalism, which goes all the way back to primordial times, and weak critical thinking skills, are functions of the system. So long as a conspiracy narrative has the "right" good guys and bad guys, people who dislike the bad guys in the narrative will want to believe it.

What has changed that has caused so many people to buy into conspiracy theories and other swill is one technological invention: the internet. It has increased exposure to political lies by at least an order of magnitude, if not two orders of magnitude.

It's a sad comment on human nature, but unfortunately true, that all people needed to accept bullshit was to be exposed to enough of it.

I believe the internet has opened up a world of learning that affords me hours of enjoyment. I remember seeing a video of an African boy in a remote village take ideas he saw on the internet to help his whole village. Do you really think it is the amount of bullshit that is of relevance rather than a desire to believe? And if critical thinking is the only thing that can protect us, why did we allow our liberal education system so much better in the 60s go to hell? Don't you think it is the system we live in that can only maintain enormous disparity of income and the concentration of power to the benefit of the wealthy by preventing the masses from a capacity to see their own real interests? There is more than one kind of Cultural Revolution than the one that Mao had. Give intellectual ability a bad name. Isn't the problem that people who have been made to feel stupid will revel in the news that critical thinking is bad?

The problem I have with your line of reasoning is that the human brain is a learning machine, driven to learn by instinct. That desire just needs to be turned off by putting down any who persist on becoming what they want naturally. That becomes the culture, the system of programming we grew up in. It obviously didn't totally ruin you. Why? You are seeped in bullshit up to your eyeballs every day. Why aren't you also a nut case?
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
25,661
15,160
136
You seem be be aggrieved that somebody like Murdoch can happen when it seems like a problem that could be easily fixed. A high tax on wealth and limits on corporate acquisitions would help increase the prevalence of broader perspective news. Public financing with no editorial control designed to promote investigative journalism could promote citizen awareness of issues about which self serving interests would prefer kept in the dark. But none of this happens or happened because nobody wants to make waves and those who do are crushed.
It happens cause dark money buys policy. One rich guy or one company says fuck your vote, my voice is worth more than yours. And I am rich bitch (elon pun). So I’ll just BUY influence with these power coupons.
Otherwise something like 5th column Fox News woulda been shut down years ago. Its corrupt and its immoral and its deceptive.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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I believe the internet has opened up a world of learning that affords me hours of enjoyment. I remember seeing a video of an African boy in a remote village take ideas he saw on the internet to help his whole village.

Those are anecdotes. In many ways, I would describe my own experience with the internet much like you did. Which is also irrelevant. What it causes on a mass scale is what matters.

Also, I would point out that whatever is good about the internet has little bearing on what is bad about it.

Do you really think it is the amount of bullshit that is of relevance rather than a desire to believe?

The desire to believe is eternal, as it is a function of primordial tribalism. What has varied over time is, in fact, the amount of bullshit. Bullshit is remarkably effective, now and throughout history, whenever it has found an adequate distribution channel.

And if critical thinking is the only thing that can protect us, why did we allow our liberal education system so much better in the 60s go to hell?

I don't think our system was any better then than now. At least not so far as teaching critical thinking, anyway. It's never been taught as a class in public high schools, or very rarely at best. Though it could be useful if taught correctly. So far as teachers teaching kids to be skeptical and so forth, I highly doubt that was more the case back then.

This was an era when most of a generation at least initially believed lies told about Viet Nam by the LBJ administration and lots of kids went and died or had their balls blown off. Back then, there were two trusted authorities: the government and the press. Things functioned pretty well so long as those two sources told the truth. And in the event the government lied, usually the media would expose it, eventually.

Nowadays with the internet everyone is a publisher and everyone's bullshit goes out to a wide audience. And of course we now have Fox News and other conservative "media." Combine that with the tribalism and gullibility which have always been features of humans, and you have the situation we're in today.

Don't you think it is the system we live in that can only maintain enormous disparity of income and the concentration of power to the benefit of the wealthy by preventing the masses from a capacity to see their own real interests?

Yes, it's a huge problem. Take the prominent example of fossil fuels companies polluting our air going on 150 years now, then when they become aware of climate change, as Exxon did in the 1970's, they use their money to fund a dishonest denial campaign so they can continue polluting for $$$. And where has that campaign achieved its maximum exposure? On the internet.

The issue you raise is co-extensive with the issue I raise.

There is more than one kind of Cultural Revolution than the one that Mao had. Give intellectual ability a bad name. Isn't the problem that people who have been made to feel stupid will revel in the news that critical thinking is bad?

The problem I have with your line of reasoning is that the human brain is a learning machine, driven to learn by instinct. That desire just needs to be turned off by putting down any who persist on becoming what they want naturally. That becomes the culture, the system of programming we grew up in. It obviously didn't totally ruin you. Why? You are seeped in bullshit up to your eyeballs every day. Why aren't you also a nut case?

That question you ask rhetorically actually has an answer in my case. But it's rooted in parental influence and early childhood experiences. For example, not being taught to just believe in things that other people believe in without first asking questions. But the bulk of parents have never raised their kids that way, because they want them to believe the same things they believe.

Teaching your kids to believe in magical beings, for example, doesn't necessarily prepare them very well for living in the real world and figuring out what is actually real and what is not.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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It happens cause dark money buys policy. One rich guy or one company says fuck your vote, my voice is worth more than yours. And I am rich bitch (elon pun). So I’ll just BUY influence with these power coupons.
Otherwise something like 5th column Fox News woulda been shut down years ago. Its corrupt and its immoral and its deceptive.

Recently Vic reminded us that a government is only as good as its people. The problem I see is that the Constitution was written at a time when the quality of the citizenry was such that the aspirations set forth in the constitution and those of the citizenry harmonized in such a way an ding one protected the other. These values enshrined those hard won by white males via the Liberal Enlightenment produced within Western Europe.

They were the most progressive flowering of human understanding known by them at that time. For Blacks, Native Americans, and women maybe not so much.

The point is that what people aspire to depends on whose ox gets gored. Progressive liberalism has at root the notion of God given inalienable rights, that within each of us is something that aspires to the divine.

It was the expansion and inclusion of that privileged notion, the sanctity of Western white liberal men, to the realization that it is the same birth right that belongs to all people, that still seeks expression today and it is the dam created by the aggrieved who lack an inner trust that such a sanctity exists that fight to the death over the scraps of progress we have so far achieved terrified that others will make more progress and reduce their own privilage to ever less.

The problem I see then, is that the desire to draw your neighbor up into an enlightened mode of being has succumbed to a sense of inner loss, a feeling that creates a sense of grievance that is projected onto others as the fear they want whatever you might have and are also the cause of what you feel you have already lost.

Charity of spirit, liberalism itself, die in the face of fear and the experience of suffering and the possibility that it will get worse is always is real. We are caught in an existential dilema that only the enlightened acceptance of unavoidable fate can transcend. We can selfishly condemn or selflessly try to lift up, the latter being what intelligent selfishness looks like and the wisdom the god within proclames.

Of course this is my opinion.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,457
6,689
126
Those are anecdotes. In many ways, I would describe my own experience with the internet much like you did. Which is also irrelevant. What it causes on a mass scale is what matters.

Also, I would point out that whatever is good about the internet has little bearing on what is bad about it.

Well in my opinion the relevance comes into play when weighting the pros and cons of the internet. Should we seek to turn it all off or strive to fix the parts that are destructive. That would determine where we need to change the structure of the system as it currently exists.

The desire to believe is eternal, as it is a function of primordial tribalism. What has varied over time is, in fact, the amount of bullshit. Bullshit is remarkably effective, now and throughout history, whenever it has found an adequate distribution channel.

I don't think our system was any better then than now. At least not so far as teaching critical thinking, anyway. It's never been taught as a class in public high schools, or very rarely at best. Though it could be useful if taught correctly. So far as teachers teaching kids to be skeptical and so forth, I highly doubt that was more the case back then.

This was an era when most of a generation at least initially believed lies told about Viet Nam by the LBJ administration and lots of kids went and died or had their balls blown off. Back then, there were two trusted authorities: the government and the press. Things functioned pretty well so long as those two sources told the truth. And in the event the government lied, usually the media would expose it, eventually.

Nowadays with the internet everyone is a publisher and everyone's bullshit goes out to a wide audience. And of course we now have Fox News and other conservative "media." Combine that with the tribalism and gullibility which have always been features of humans, and you have the situation we're in today.

I think I would need a better grasp of history than I have to buy fully into these ideas. For example, I was rigorously trained to think critically in my high school English classes. We had to read many of the best books, determine what was being said and defend our positions with logical reasoning. When I was introduced to that I had a million thoughts and opinions none of whch I had the slightest idea how to express. I used to be regulary up at 2 in the morning struggling to get down on paper in thought some approximation of what I felt.

Yes, it's a huge problem. Take the prominent example of fossil fuels companies polluting our air going on 150 years now, then when they become aware of climate change, as Exxon did in the 1970's, they use their money to fund a dishonest denial campaign so they can continue polluting for $$$. And where has that campaign achieved its maximum exposure? On the internet.

OK but where they had their maximum effect, im my opinion, was in their lobby efforts in Washington DC. That is because of the system.

The issue you raise is co-extensive with the issue I raise.

And so, I believe, because they are similarly systemic in nature.

That question you ask rhetorically actually has an answer in my case. But it's rooted in parental influence and early childhood experiences. For example, not being taught to just believe in things that other people believe in without first asking questions. But the bulk of parents have never raised their kids that way, because they want them to believe the same things they believe.

Teaching your kids to believe in magical beings, for example, doesn't necessarily prepare them very well for living in the real world and figuring out what is actually real and what is not.

But I have always insisted that the need for conformity imposed on children by parents is to save then from the danger the herd poses by labeling and persicuting non-conformists as heritics. For example teaching children to fear damnation by a loving God destroys any sense of anything good coming of what is inalienable within. It turns the self against its own nature. The problem then is that what you call magical I would call real. The only thing unreal is how you see it, in my opinion. You dismiss the outward projection and miss the fact it is there as a reflection of what is real within. The whole idea that we are alone and separate arises systemically when that is what people believe.

We are the world in that we see what we believe. I had a rather strange experience the other night thinking about how thought creates the world that stopped me right there to pause to consider "What is it that is real?" I happened to be laying at an angle where I was looking at a colored towel draped over a desk by my bed. For just a brief second I started to really look at it and the color and dimensional nature started to come to life, maybe editically. Anyway, I suddenly remembered seeing things that way long ago. There came quite quickly a fear of that state and I assume so because there I sense a pain that I no longer experience seeing the world that way any more, as if it were all alive.

We skipped the light fandango
Turned cartwheels 'cross the floor
I was feeling kinda seasick
But the crowd called out for more
The room was humming harder
As the ceiling flew away
When we called out for another drink
The waiter brought a tray

And so it was that later
As the miller told his tale
That her face, at first just ghostly
Turned a whiter shade of pale

She said, there is no reason
And the truth is plain to see
But I wandered through my playing cards
And would not let her be
One of sixteen vestal virgins
Who were leaving for the coast
And although my eyes were open
They might have just as well've been closed

And so it was that later
As the miller told his tale
That her face at first just ghostly
Turned a whiter shade of pale

She said, 'I'm home on shore leave,'
Though in truth we were at sea
So I took her by the looking glass
And forced her to agree
Saying, 'You must be the mermaid
Who took Neptune for a ride.'
But she smiled at me so sadly
That my anger straightway died

And so it was that later
As the miller told his tale
That her face at first just ghostly
Turned a whiter shade of pale

If music be the food of love
Then laughter is its queen
And likewise if behind is in front
Then dirt in truth is clean
My mouth by then like cardboard
Seemed to slip straight through my head
So we crash-dived straightway quickly
And attacked the ocean bed

And so it was that later
As the miller told his tale
That her face at first just ghostly
Turned a whiter shade of pale
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,492
3,162
136
Maybe I'm asking too much, and maybe I'm just a dreamer, but I thought it was governments role to protect society from pain and suffering? I.e. was governments role and duty and their only duty to protect Americans, and more so to protect the American middle class from being raped and savaged by the powerful and by the powers that be?

Look at how disparity has skyrocketed. At how wealth disparity has reached monstrumental proportions. At how the American citizenry are as rabbits left prey to the wolfs. At how companies and owners can become wealthy enough to build spaceships to the moon while the employee suffers paycheck to paycheck. Look at how a company like Walmart can raise prices 400% in a weeks time.
None of this seems fair. Oh sure.... its fair to the corporations and to the CEOs, but what about some fairness and protection for the middle class?

All that congress cares about is flexing their political muscle, bending to the whims of special interest, and completely ignoring income disparity. And.... focusing on getting reelected no matter what it takes.
Term limits? RiGhT... Dark money? Bring it on... Wealth disparity? What's THAT? Never heard of it.

Take American debt. Most Americans, just like our government, live off credit. Credit cards maxed out, and caught up in financial nightmare. And guess what???? If you didn't know better, and you don't, it would appear THIS IS EXACTLY how it was intended to be. To keep the poor really poor, to treat the middle class as the modern day slave, and the government as the modern day slave owner.
You know what gave them away? With how they reacted during the Covid epidemic.

Congress freaked at the very thought of handing Americans, suffering Americans, unemployed Americans, a few dollars in stimulus relief. They freaked. Giving out money to American workers was unthinkable AND... would make Americans lazy, spoiled, and unwilling. Congress feared that a few bucks would spoil the American middle class, would turn the middle class into lazy drug addicts.
Thanks to a few in congress, stimulus survived, but one thing was crystal clear.... they would NEVER do THAT again. No F-ing way!!!!!

Yes, I thought it was the role of the US government AND the role of every damn member of congress to protect Americans from the wolfs and sharks? But no.... no its not...
The role of politicians has become protecting the injustice, protecting their jobs, and protecting their money. And the middle class? This same middle class that once only needed a one car garage because the family needed only one car and dad was the sole bread earner. This same middle class that once could afford to send the kid to college, and this same... the very same middle class mind you... that allowed mom to be a mother rather than a necessary wage earner.

First, dad worked one job with a salary that provided the family with everything the family needed. A car, college education, a yearly vacation, with providing food and clothing a plenty. Then, suddenly dad needed a second job, a part-time job thus the term "moon-lighting" came into being. But it turns out even THAT was not enough. Then, dad needed two... count them TWO full-time jobs just to make ends meet. And STILL that was not enough, so suddenly mom had to leave the kitchen and the dusting and the cooking to take on a job of her own. And this was only the beginning.
Suddenly, both mom and dad working multiple jobs yet still living paycheck to paycheck.

Like I said.... if I didn't know better, and I don't, I'd say this was all planned. A plot well organized. Planned all along over many many years and allowed to happen and more so encouraged to happen over many many years by a failed US government and by a failed US congress, regardless of party. Slavery 101. Keep the middle class poor, keep them in debt, keep them under control, and keep them hoping the lottery will save them which frankly is their only hope.
Yeah, somewhere somehow something went terribly terribly wrong. And it didn't just happen. And congress made it happen. And... it isn't over yet.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,457
6,689
126
Maybe I'm asking too much, and maybe I'm just a dreamer, but I thought it was governments role to protect society from pain and suffering? I.e. was governments role and duty and their only duty to protect Americans, and more so to protect the American middle class from being raped and savaged by the powerful and by the powers that be?

Look at how disparity has skyrocketed. At how wealth disparity has reached monstrumental proportions. At how the American citizenry are as rabbits left prey to the wolfs. At how companies and owners can become wealthy enough to build spaceships to the moon while the employee suffers paycheck to paycheck. Look at how a company like Walmart can raise prices 400% in a weeks time.
None of this seems fair. Oh sure.... its fair to the corporations and to the CEOs, but what about some fairness and protection for the middle class?

All that congress cares about is flexing their political muscle, bending to the whims of special interest, and completely ignoring income disparity. And.... focusing on getting reelected no matter what it takes.
Term limits? RiGhT... Dark money? Bring it on... Wealth disparity? What's THAT? Never heard of it.

Take American debt. Most Americans, just like our government, live off credit. Credit cards maxed out, and caught up in financial nightmare. And guess what???? If you didn't know better, and you don't, it would appear THIS IS EXACTLY how it was intended to be. To keep the poor really poor, to treat the middle class as the modern day slave, and the government as the modern day slave owner.
You know what gave them away? With how they reacted during the Covid epidemic.

Congress freaked at the very thought of handing Americans, suffering Americans, unemployed Americans, a few dollars in stimulus relief. They freaked. Giving out money to American workers was unthinkable AND... would make Americans lazy, spoiled, and unwilling. Congress feared that a few bucks would spoil the American middle class, would turn the middle class into lazy drug addicts.
Thanks to a few in congress, stimulus survived, but one thing was crystal clear.... they would NEVER do THAT again. No F-ing way!!!!!

Yes, I thought it was the role of the US government AND the role of every damn member of congress to protect Americans from the wolfs and sharks? But no.... no its not...
The role of politicians has become protecting the injustice, protecting their jobs, and protecting their money. And the middle class? This same middle class that once only needed a one car garage because the family needed only one car and dad was the sole bread earner. This same middle class that once could afford to send the kid to college, and this same... the very same middle class mind you... that allowed mom to be a mother rather than a necessary wage earner.

First, dad worked one job with a salary that provided the family with everything the family needed. A car, college education, a yearly vacation, with providing food and clothing a plenty. Then, suddenly dad needed a second job, a part-time job thus the term "moon-lighting" came into being. But it turns out even THAT was not enough. Then, dad needed two... count them TWO full-time jobs just to make ends meet. And STILL that was not enough, so suddenly mom had to leave the kitchen and the dusting and the cooking to take on a job of her own. And this was only the beginning.
Suddenly, both mom and dad working multiple jobs yet still living paycheck to paycheck.

Like I said.... if I didn't know better, and I don't, I'd say this was all planned. A plot well organized. Planned all along over many many years and allowed to happen and more so encouraged to happen over many many years by a failed US government and by a failed US congress, regardless of party. Slavery 101. Keep the middle class poor, keep them in debt, keep them under control, and keep them hoping the lottery will save them which frankly is their only hope.
Yeah, somewhere somehow something went terribly terribly wrong. And it didn't just happen. And congress made it happen. And... it isn't over yet.

Should a government be declared illigitimate when it aggrieves the people? Here is one answer:

In Congress, July 4, 1776


The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

It then goes on to list the grievances.

But isn't that just what the right is trying to do, To foment a revolution, to overthrow the constitution and institute a new dictatorship as they see fit to govern them?

And isn't what our forefathers did bring forth a new government on a new continent today be regarded as sedition? Wouldn't it be nice of instead of a revolution that will lead to violence and open rebellion, we could have a government that actually responded to the will of the people? But who has the time or the training to really do much by the way of thinking. People will either awaken out of a sense of need or the system will collapse from rot and corruption within.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,240
136
Well in my opinion the relevance comes into play when weighting the pros and cons of the internet. Should we seek to turn it all off or strive to fix the parts that are destructive. That would determine where we need to change the structure of the system as it currently exists.

In my opinion, there is no "relevance." I didn't point to the internet as a prime culprit because I think there's something we can actually do about it. We can't. Not and remain anything like a democracy, anyway. Sorry, but that particular genie can not be put back into its bottle. There is good and bad with the internet, and I don't think either is going to change.

The only reason I bother to point it out is cautionary. To remind people that they cannot believe much of what they read online. And also, because any strategies to address/debunk disinformation should probably be focused online.

I think I would need a better grasp of history than I have to buy fully into these ideas. For example, I was rigorously trained to think critically in my high school English classes. We had to read many of the best books, determine what was being said and defend our positions with logical reasoning. When I was introduced to that I had a million thoughts and opinions none of whch I had the slightest idea how to express. I used to be regulary up at 2 in the morning struggling to get down on paper in thought some approximation of what I felt.

Yes, I had an AP class or two like that. Back in the 80's. Well after our educational system had supposedly declined.

What I can tell you from history is basically what I already said: they didn't have Fox News, Beitbart or Dredge, and they didn't have the internet or social media. People tended to trust the government and the news media back then as authoritative sources of information. Since those two sources either both told the truth, or one lied and the other exposed the lie, things generally worked out better for people being in touch with reality back then.

Which had nothing to do with critical thinking. If anything, education in the 1950's and before was more focused on things like rote memorization, which is good for acquiring information but not so good for critical thinking.

OK but where they had their maximum effect, im my opinion, was in their lobby efforts in Washington DC. That is because of the system.

Their lobby efforts in DC were effective in convincing politicians, particularly GOP, to protect their profits. But they had to convince the GOP's base that there was no reason to combat climate change, or their votes to protect fossil fuels would have made them unpopular with their base. For that, they created a false denial movement, which spread mainly online.

But I have always insisted that the need for conformity imposed on children by parents is to save then from the danger the herd poses by labeling and persicuting non-conformists as heritics. For example teaching children to fear damnation by a loving God destroys any sense of anything good coming of what is inalienable within. It turns the self against its own nature. The problem then is that what you call magical I would call real. The only thing unreal is how you see it, in my opinion. You dismiss the outward projection and miss the fact it is there as a reflection of what is real within. The whole idea that we are alone and separate arises systemically when that is what people believe.

I'm afraid I can't properly address your views regarding religion and spirituality, because I am in a different frame of reference. I believe there is reality that actually exists outside our tiny skulls. I also believe that when the brains in said tiny skulls decide to declare that they "believe" in something that they claim literally exists outside their skulls, that said brains have the burden of proving that this thing does, in fact, exist in literal form outside their skulls.

You OTOH, are more concerned about what's inside our skulls than outside. You think those beliefs, though they may not actually describe anything that may exist outside our consciousness, are important or even "true" because they describe things about our inner being? Am I about right here?

So I see us as talking about two different things here. Succinctly, my point is this. If children are taught to believe things for which there is no evidence outside their own heads, it's likely they are going to keep doing that into adulthood. It's why they believe things like the 2020 election being stolen. Because religious people don't need no steenking evidence, right?
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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In my opinion, there is no "relevance." I didn't point to the internet as a prime culprit because I think there's something we can actually do about it. We can't. Not and remain anything like a democracy, anyway. Sorry, but that particular genie can not be put back into its bottle. There is good and bad with the internet, and I don't think either is going to change.

The only reason I bother to point it out is cautionary. To remind people that they cannot believe much of what they read online. And also, because any strategies to address/debunk disinformation should probably be focused online.

Perhaps I made my case in too round about of a way. We don't want to get rid of the bad in the internet by shutting it down with the good. That leaves only the choice of awareness of the problem, education and heightened effort to alert people to the dangers as the logical course of action. But change would of necessity be systemic change.



Yes, I had an AP class or two like that. Back in the 80's. Well after our educational system had supposedly declined.

What I can tell you from history is basically what I already said: they didn't have Fox News, Beitbart or Dredge, and they didn't have the internet or social media. People tended to trust the government and the news media back then as authoritative sources of information. Since those two sources either both told the truth, or one lied and the other exposed the lie, things generally worked out better for people being in touch with reality back then.

I guess we had different experiences then. The result of that I acquired from the kind of work I was asked to do led me to doubt everything, the news, the government. I questioned and destroyed everything I had been taught. I don't believe in anything. All wisdom for me comes from the fact that believing nothing myself, I know that what others believe they believe is rubbish.


Which had nothing to do with critical thinking. If anything, education in the 1950's and before was more focused on things like rote memorization, which is good for acquiring information but not so good for critical thinking.

But all of the great thinkers whose ideas I was exposed to and left me wanting published their works and did their thinking long before the 50s which would seem to imply, if you are correct, that their great erudition was the result of rote learning. Maybe so. But maybe too I was just too stupid to be impressed.

Their lobby efforts in DC were effective in convincing politicians, particularly GOP, to protect their profits. But they had to convince the GOP's base that there was no reason to combat climate change, or their votes to protect fossil fuels would have made them unpopular with their base. For that, they created a false denial movement, which spread mainly online.

The kind of critical thinking I was exposed to tells me that one can never know what direction the future would have gone in if something in the past were changed. That says to me that I have no idea of whether we would not be exactly where we are with climate change without the internet.

I'm afraid I can't properly address your views regarding religion and spirituality, because I am in a different frame of reference. I believe there is reality that actually exists outside our tiny skulls. I also believe that when the brains in said tiny skulls decide to declare that they "believe" in something that they claim literally exists outside their skulls, that said brains have the burden of proving that this thing does, in fact, exist in literal form outside their skulls.

You OTOH, are more concerned about what's inside our skulls than outside. You think those beliefs, though they may not actually describe anything that may exist outside our consciousness, are important or even "true" because they describe things about our inner being? Am I about right here?

So I see us as talking about two different things here. Succinctly, my point is this. If children are taught to believe things for which there is no evidence outside their own heads, it's likely they are going to keep doing that into adulthood. It's why they believe things like the 2020 election being stolen. Because religious people don't need no steenking evidence, right?

When you say you can't address my views because you are in a different frame of reference I can agree. Your frame of reference to my eyes is a form of belief. You have in your mind what I believe about religion and spirituality but about those things I have only one belief, that I have no idea. I know that I do not know. My unknowing is my spirituality and my religion. I am empty. I neither believe nor do I doubt. You believe that religious people believe without any stinking evidence. But that strikes me as your condition, not mine. I don't know. What I know is that I had an insight that changed my inner being. Everything changed when I doubted doubt. This is something that I experienced and know that I did but which I can only suggest happens to others from time to time.

What I think I lost was my conditioning, everything I was taught to believe. I picked up the name 'a thousand tons of cabbage to describe it by name. On the internet there is a thousand tons of cabbage that people can acquire and the cure for that is the same as the one for me. There is nothing new under the sun. He who questions authority honestly and with deep need will reject everything he or she has learned. To be empty of belief is to be full of being. Everything I have said, just throw it out.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Succinctly, my point is this. If children are taught to believe things for which there is no evidence outside their own heads, it's likely they are going to keep doing that into adulthood. It's why they believe things like the 2020 election being stolen. Because religious people don't need no steenking evidence, right?

I remember an odd moment in my life when as a young man in my 20 I overheard a conversation among a group of teenagers where I suddenly knew the meaning of what I had heard years before that when you reach 21 you will discover your father was far more intelligent than you had previously ever dreamed. I suddenly understood it in my gut. These young people were talking about something they had no real idea about. They lacked the life experience to understand it. They were talking about things they had not lived and I had. For the first time it became clear to me that knowing and thinking you know are different things. The real evidence that one person has had experiences another has not exists only in the person who has that realization. There is no way, as my father would say to put an old head on young shoulders. But how do you prove it. If your inner live has been dramatically transformed by a out of the ordinary experience like lighting up a dark room, there is no way the person who can now see the room and navigate through it without cracking his or her shins is going to join others in walking into walls pretending they can't be detected. I think it's rather natural to try to keep others from having that happen to them.

It seems rather natural to me, also, that one knows when one is in a better or a worse place.

But I also understand the matter of distrust. My first exposure to Zen filled me with contempt. I hadn't the faintest idea it would save my life.

All I am saying is that the truth you describe about a huge number of religious believers isn't necessarily true of all of them. Also, I am not a believer.

I remember some aspects of a story I once read about, I think, the Persians and the Greeks, a contest between then to create the greatest work of art. The Persians created a magnificent masterpiece on one side of a room with a curtain dividing them from the work being done by the Greeks. When the curtain was removed and the time for judgment arrived nobody could tell who won because the Greeks had created a perfect mirror in which the Persian masterpiece was reflected. I have no way of knowing but my feelings tell me that whoever created that story owned a state of awareness beyond anything I have ever experienced. I think there is a well so deep that even a sip of its waters changes everything.
 

uallas5

Golden Member
Jun 3, 2005
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I'm a 6' 4", White Male with a college education, so statistically I'm on the top of the mother f'n food chain!
OF COURSE I feel aggrieved and not only that, OPPRESSED as well dammit!!!





Well I would if I was stupid enough to listen to Fucker Carlson and the rest of the right wing brohards.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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A white male (Mark Meadows) just got away with a CLEAR case of voter fraud. Meanwhile Crystal Mason was sentenced to 5 years because she mistakenly filed a provisional ballot
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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A white male (Mark Meadows) just got away with a CLEAR case of voter fraud. Meanwhile Crystal Mason was sentenced to 5 years because she mistakenly filed a provisional ballot
I was wondering about that in the other thread. We liberals mostly know there is no God and the only law is the law of the jungle. Might makes right and those with power have the final say, right? I wonder if people who grew up someplace else than in America where we were sold the lie about equality under the law would even care. I can't think of what about this case pisses me off other than I somehow got the insane notion that in a just world which has never or ever will exist, apparently, such events should not happen. I mean, surely some of us are just fucked and some of us aren't and those of us who aren't, why rock the boat. Am I right?

And when you say clear case you mean clear to you. According to the NYT:
Mark Meadows Won’t Face Voting Fraud Charges in North Carolina
The state attorney general said there was “not sufficient evidence” to bring charges against Mr. Meadows or his wife, Debra Meadows.

Evidence, like justice, apparently is quite malleable, no?
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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North Carolina state law does not require physical residence in order to vote, if you are an official of the federal government and you had NC residence before you became an official. That's why Meadows is not being charged. Not because he's white. Because that is just what their laws state. In case anyone wants to check my work:

North Carolina General Statute § 163-57(8)

If a person removes to the District of Columbia or other federal territory to engage in the government service, that person shall not be considered to have lost residence in this State during the period of such service unless that person votes in the place to which the person removed, and the place at which that person resided at the time of that person's removal shall be considered and held to be the place of residence.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
38,660
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North Carolina state law does not require physical residence in order to vote, if you are an official of the federal government and you had NC residence before you became an official. That's why Meadows is not being charged. Not because he's white. Because that is just what their laws state. In case anyone wants to check my work:

Mark Meadows was simultaneously registered in 3 states. How does what you stated apply?