do you care about the environment?

[So]

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe

Originally posted by: So
Nope. I care about my environment, but not the abstract thing for it's own sake.

If I ever meet your mother I'll put my foot in her ass for not raising you properly.

Right, sorry, I didnt join the cult and shold be beaten for disagreeing.

Really makes me realize the folly of my non mother earth religious ways.

 

[DaWhim]

Originally posted by: OdiN

Originally posted by: DaWhim
simply STFU with the environmentalist ideology.

The environment is going to hell, and human life is doomed to only get worse, right? Wrong. Conventional wisdom, meet Julian Simon, the Doomslayer.

And a quote from that article:

"The air in the US and in other rich countries is irrefutably safer to breathe."

That's just incorrect. I mean...what is he comparing the air quality to? The 1920's? Industrially...we may not pollute as bad as we used to...but the statement that this guy makes about the environment getting better is absurd.

Go to LA and look at the nice clean air. Hell...even Bakersfield here has begun to get really really horrible smog.

We produce TONS upon TONS of waste products....companies make wastefull containers for products in order to advertise them more. This is not good for the environment. Sure...we can recycle...but nobody does that really.

Food...I'm not worried about the amount of food. The quality is a lot worse in some respects, and also better in others...so it's kind of a wash there.

I'm not saying it's all wrong...but he's not all right either.

Here's my FACT about air quality being worse and not being better:

When I was growing up...I could clearly see the mountains on most days...I now live a half an hour CLOSER to the mountains and can rarely see them...only after a rain has cleared smog out or a winter storm come through and blown it all away. They dissappear a day or two later. If air is getting better...why can't I see my mountains?

there is a phrase every industrized countries have to a through. after that environment will get better even if you do nothing about it. you know the relation between income and living standard, that's it.

the air quality may be getting worse in your place, but it is pretty good in my place. if you want a solid arguement, come back with some statistics.

here is another article for you.

Fourth, pollution is also exaggerated. Many analyses show that air pollution diminishes when a society becomes rich enough to be able to afford to be concerned about the environment. For London, the city for which the best data are available, air pollution peaked around 1890 (see chart 2). Today, the air is cleaner than it has been since 1585. There is good reason to believe that this general picture holds true for all developed countries. And, although air pollution is increasing in many developing countries, they are merely replicating the development of the industrialised countries. When they grow sufficiently rich they, too, will start to reduce their air pollution.

All this contradicts the litany. Yet opinion polls suggest that many people, in the rich world, at least, nurture the belief that environmental standards are declining.

link

 

[mercanucaribe]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe

Originally posted by: So
Nope. I care about my environment, but not the abstract thing for it's own sake.

If I ever meet your mother I'll put my foot in her ass for not raising you properly.

Right, sorry, I didnt join the cult and shold be beaten for disagreeing.

Really makes me realize the folly of my non mother earth religious ways.

Do you use drugs? 1/4 of prescription drugs came from wild plants.
Do you eat chocolate and drink coffee? Without viable rainforest environments either is viable and expensive to grow.
Like fish? Enjoy the effects of bioaccumulation if you eat fish high on the food chain! Of course your options are limited now thanks to overfishing and the downstream effects of riverine degradation.
Remember the Dust Bowl? It wouldn't have happened with proper land management, hence the formation of the Soil Conservation Service, now known as the NRCS http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/.

The point is you don't have to be a Birkenstock wearing, pot smoking hippie to give a damn about the environment, or hell, to appreciate billions of years worth of genetic diversity. If that isn't important, what is? Jesus?

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: DaWhim

Originally posted by: OdiN

Originally posted by: DaWhim
simply STFU with the environmentalist ideology.

The environment is going to hell, and human life is doomed to only get worse, right? Wrong. Conventional wisdom, meet Julian Simon, the Doomslayer.

And a quote from that article:

"The air in the US and in other rich countries is irrefutably safer to breathe."

That's just incorrect. I mean...what is he comparing the air quality to? The 1920's? Industrially...we may not pollute as bad as we used to...but the statement that this guy makes about the environment getting better is absurd.

Go to LA and look at the nice clean air. Hell...even Bakersfield here has begun to get really really horrible smog.

We produce TONS upon TONS of waste products....companies make wastefull containers for products in order to advertise them more. This is not good for the environment. Sure...we can recycle...but nobody does that really.

Food...I'm not worried about the amount of food. The quality is a lot worse in some respects, and also better in others...so it's kind of a wash there.

I'm not saying it's all wrong...but he's not all right either.

Here's my FACT about air quality being worse and not being better:

When I was growing up...I could clearly see the mountains on most days...I now live a half an hour CLOSER to the mountains and can rarely see them...only after a rain has cleared smog out or a winter storm come through and blown it all away. They dissappear a day or two later. If air is getting better...why can't I see my mountains?

there is a phrase every industrized countries have to a through. after that environment will get better even if you do nothing about it. you know the relation between income and living standard, that's it.

the air quality may be getting worse in your place, but it is pretty good in my place. if you want a solid arguement, come back with some statistics.

here is another article for you.

Fourth, pollution is also exaggerated. Many analyses show that air pollution diminishes when a society becomes rich enough to be able to afford to be concerned about the environment. For London, the city for which the best data are available, air pollution peaked around 1890 (see chart 2). Today, the air is cleaner than it has been since 1585. There is good reason to believe that this general picture holds true for all developed countries. And, although air pollution is increasing in many developing countries, they are merely replicating the development of the industrialised countries. When they grow sufficiently rich they, too, will start to reduce their air pollution.

All this contradicts the litany. Yet opinion polls suggest that many people, in the rich world, at least, nurture the belief that environmental standards are declining.

link

I don't need statistics...I just need my own observations.

And yes...the air quality is the best since 1585...well...it wasn't the animals that worsened the air from 1585 until 1890.

People like you are probably the ones that throw your trash on the ground in our state parks....because who cares, the environment is getting better every day!!

 

[So]

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe

Originally posted by: So
Nope. I care about my environment, but not the abstract thing for it's own sake.

If I ever meet your mother I'll put my foot in her ass for not raising you properly.

Right, sorry, I didnt join the cult and shold be beaten for disagreeing.

Really makes me realize the folly of my non mother earth religious ways.

Do you use drugs? 1/4 of prescription drugs came from wild plants.
Do you eat chocolate and drink coffee? Without viable rainforest environments either is viable and expensive to grow.
Like fish? Enjoy the effects of bioaccumulation if you eat fish high on the food chain! Of course your options are limited now thanks to overfishing and the downstream effects of riverine degradation.
Remember the Dust Bowl? It wouldn't have happened with proper land management, hence the formation of the Soil Conservation Service, now known as the NRCS http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/.

The point is you don't have to be a Birkenstock wearing, pot smoking hippie to give a damn about the environment, or hell, to appreciate billions of years worth of genetic diversity. If that isn't important, what is? Jesus?

1. And 3/4ths did not....your point?
2. Seems like the people who make a living selling coffee and chocolate might want to protect their profts then.
3. Fish Farm FTW
4. That's nice, I didn't say all conservation efforts were bad, ones that protect nature at man's expense because someone worships nature are the ones that I Have a problem with.

 

[whistleclient]

Peak Oil.

It's gonna bite us all in the ass.

 

[Ricemarine]

Sooner or later we'll reach the cretaceous period all over again.

 

[whistleclient]

Originally posted by: So
That's nice, I didn't say all conservation efforts were bad, ones that protect nature at man's expense because someone worships nature are the ones that I Have a problem with.

What's so great about mankind? Most of the people I've met are stupid, ignorant, selfish a-holes. A tree has never cut me off on the freeway. I choose trees.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: tangent1138
Peak Oil.

It's gonna bite us all in the ass.

Maybe, but if any nation will be fine, it's the US. We don't have the taxes to push up oil prices, we have the wealth to ride a spike and the third world economies (which are driving the increase in demand) will crumble quickly enoungh for us to ride it out. The result? The US will have plenty of time to switch over to the hydrogen economy.

 

[DaWhim]

Originally posted by: OdiN
I don't need statistics...I just need my own observations.

And yes...the air quality is the best since 1585...well...it wasn't the animals that worsened the air from 1585 until 1890.

People like you are probably the ones that throw your trash on the ground in our state parks....because who cares, the environment is getting better every day!!

people like me are the economist point of view. sound like you need to live in the cave, so what are you doing in front of a computer? if it weren't for the industrial revolution, you think you can enjoy what you have today? environment do get better overtime.

please don't judge me because you don't know me. last time I went to a state park, I didn't throw out any trash. I throw it out when I am in my school parking lot. :roll:

 

[whistleclient]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: tangent1138
Peak Oil.

It's gonna bite us all in the ass.

Maybe, but if any nation will be fine, it's the US. We don't have the taxes to push up oil prices, we have the wealth to ride a spike and the third world economies (which are driving the increase in demand) will crumble quickly enoungh for us to ride it out. The result? The US will have plenty of time to switch over to the hydrogen economy.

I disagree. On average, the food we eat in America travels 1500 miles to reach our plate, not to mention the petroleum based pesticides to grow the food and the gas powered turbines to harvest the food. Arguably, the countries that could weather a peak oil crisis will be the ones that haven't modernized and moved their population to suburbs, far from jobs and food sources.

 

[DaWhim]

Originally posted by: tangent1138

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: tangent1138
Peak Oil.

It's gonna bite us all in the ass.

Maybe, but if any nation will be fine, it's the US. We don't have the taxes to push up oil prices, we have the wealth to ride a spike and the third world economies (which are driving the increase in demand) will crumble quickly enoungh for us to ride it out. The result? The US will have plenty of time to switch over to the hydrogen economy.

I disagree. On average, the food we eat in America travels 1500 miles to reach our plate, not to mention the petroleum based pesticides to grow the food and the gas powered turbines to harvest the food. Arguably, the countries that could weather a peak oil crisis will be the ones that haven't modernized and moved their population to suburbs, far from jobs and food sources.

do you know how much subsidies the farmers get from the government for NOT to farm?

btw, oil peak was from 80's.

 

[whistleclient]

Originally posted by: DaWhim

Originally posted by: tangent1138

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: tangent1138
Peak Oil.

It's gonna bite us all in the ass.

Maybe, but if any nation will be fine, it's the US. We don't have the taxes to push up oil prices, we have the wealth to ride a spike and the third world economies (which are driving the increase in demand) will crumble quickly enoungh for us to ride it out. The result? The US will have plenty of time to switch over to the hydrogen economy.

I disagree. On average, the food we eat in America travels 1500 miles to reach our plate, not to mention the petroleum based pesticides to grow the food and the gas powered turbines to harvest the food. Arguably, the countries that could weather a peak oil crisis will be the ones that haven't modernized and moved their population to suburbs, far from jobs and food sources.

do you know how much subsidies the farmers get from the government for NOT to farm?

btw, oil peak was from 80's.

What are you talking about? The Peak Oil theory was first proposed by Dr. Marion King Hubbert. In 1956, Hubbert predicted that US domestic oil production would peak in 1970. It did. US oil production has never been higher than it was in the early 1970s. Many scientists claim that the Saudi oil fields have now peaked.

And you're missing the point. If we don't have oil, we can't run tractors. If we can't run tractors, we can't harvest food. This has nothing to do with subsidies.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: tangent1138

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: tangent1138
Peak Oil.

It's gonna bite us all in the ass.

Maybe, but if any nation will be fine, it's the US. We don't have the taxes to push up oil prices, we have the wealth to ride a spike and the third world economies (which are driving the increase in demand) will crumble quickly enoungh for us to ride it out. The result? The US will have plenty of time to switch over to the hydrogen economy.

I disagree. On average, the food we eat in America travels 1500 miles to reach our plate, not to mention the petroleum based pesticides to grow the food and the gas powered turbines to harvest the food. Arguably, the countries that could weather a peak oil crisis will be the ones that haven't modernized and moved their population to suburbs, far from jobs and food sources.

The US is still the breadbasket of the industrialized world in many ways, others will suffer first before Americans do, and even then, more of our freight than you realize it transported via rail.

 

[whistleclient]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: tangent1138

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: tangent1138
Peak Oil.

It's gonna bite us all in the ass.

Maybe, but if any nation will be fine, it's the US. We don't have the taxes to push up oil prices, we have the wealth to ride a spike and the third world economies (which are driving the increase in demand) will crumble quickly enoungh for us to ride it out. The result? The US will have plenty of time to switch over to the hydrogen economy.

I disagree. On average, the food we eat in America travels 1500 miles to reach our plate, not to mention the petroleum based pesticides to grow the food and the gas powered turbines to harvest the food. Arguably, the countries that could weather a peak oil crisis will be the ones that haven't modernized and moved their population to suburbs, far from jobs and food sources.

The US is still the breadbasket of the industrialized world in many ways, others will suffer first before Americans do, and even then, more of our freight than you realize it transported via rail.

And those trains run on... ?

 

[DaWhim]

Originally posted by: tangent1138


What are you talking about? The Peak Oil theory was first proposed by Dr. Marion King Hubbert. In 1956, Hubbert predicted that US domestic oil production would peak in 1970. It did. US oil production has never been higher than it was in the early 1970s. Many scientists claim that the Saudi oil fields have now peaked.

And you're missing the point. If we don't have oil, we can't run tractors. If we can't run tractors, we can't harvest food. This has nothing to do with subsidies.

oh right. so oil peak is a good news. we can switch to the renewable energy. there is something called invention. 100 years ago, human burn woods for heat. 50 years ago, we burn coal. what do we burn nowadays? natural gas? oil? then what will we burn 50 years from now? if you mind, change out the price of solar energy.

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: DaWhim

Originally posted by: OdiN
I don't need statistics...I just need my own observations.

And yes...the air quality is the best since 1585...well...it wasn't the animals that worsened the air from 1585 until 1890.

People like you are probably the ones that throw your trash on the ground in our state parks....because who cares, the environment is getting better every day!!

people like me are the economist point of view. sound like you need to live in the cave, so what are you doing in front of a computer? if it weren't for the industrial revolution, you think you can enjoy what you have today? environment do get better overtime.

please don't judge me because you don't know me. last time I went to a state park, I didn't throw out any trash. I throw it out when I am in my school parking lot. :roll:

So you do litter...yeah that helps things. Looks like in my judgement of you I was right.

I would love to be able to live in the mountains and not have to worry about computers or anything...that would be wonderful. Unfortunately I have to have a job and pay bills. It really sucks.

I would be much happier in a society which isn't so focused on the acquisition of monetary wealth. I would be at home in a society in which everyone did work he/she was good at and all in the community worked together to produce the necessities of life...even if there were no computers. Not saying live the amish life or anything...but often times I do yearn for a much simpler life without all this technology. And...I'm a computer tech...go figure.

 

[DaWhim]

Originally posted by: OdiN

So you do litter...yeah that helps things. Looks like in my judgement of you I was right.

I would love to be able to live in the mountains and not have to worry about computers or anything...that would be wonderful. Unfortunately I have to have a job and pay bills. It really sucks.

I would be much happier in a society which isn't so focused on the acquisition of monetary wealth. I would be at home in a society in which everyone did work he/she was good at and all in the community worked together to produce the necessities of life...even if there were no computers. Not saying live the amish life or anything...but often times I do yearn for a much simpler life without all this technology. And...I'm a computer tech...go figure.

get a little realistic. utopia never worked. last time I checked, soviet no longer exist. here is the old saying, I will paraphrase that. if you are not idealist before the age of 30, you have no heart; if you are still one after that, you have no brain. sadly, I am 21 and I have no heart.

 

[whistleclient]

Originally posted by: DaWhim

Originally posted by: tangent1138


What are you talking about? The Peak Oil theory was first proposed by Dr. Marion King Hubbert. In 1956, Hubbert predicted that US domestic oil production would peak in 1970. It did. US oil production has never been higher than it was in the early 1970s. Many scientists claim that the Saudi oil fields have now peaked.

And you're missing the point. If we don't have oil, we can't run tractors. If we can't run tractors, we can't harvest food. This has nothing to do with subsidies.

oh right. so oil peak is a good news. we can switch to the renewable energy. there is something called invention. 100 years ago, human burn woods for heat. 50 years ago, we burn coal. what do we burn nowadays? natural gas? oil? then what will we burn 50 years from now? if you mind, change out the price of solar energy.

I'm not worried about 50 years from now. I'm worried about 5-7 years from now, in the transition from oil to this mythical technology that will save us. Good thing we as a society have admitted we have a problem and are working towards a goal of solving this. Oh, wait. We're not.

 

[mchammer]

Lets face it guys, if the sh!t hits the fan, we'll go back to burning coal because we have plenty of it...

 

[OdiN]

Originally posted by: DaWhim

Originally posted by: OdiN

So you do litter...yeah that helps things. Looks like in my judgement of you I was right.

I would love to be able to live in the mountains and not have to worry about computers or anything...that would be wonderful. Unfortunately I have to have a job and pay bills. It really sucks.

I would be much happier in a society which isn't so focused on the acquisition of monetary wealth. I would be at home in a society in which everyone did work he/she was good at and all in the community worked together to produce the necessities of life...even if there were no computers. Not saying live the amish life or anything...but often times I do yearn for a much simpler life without all this technology. And...I'm a computer tech...go figure.

get a little realistic. utopia never worked. last time I checked, soviet no longer exist. here is the old saying, I will paraphrase that. if you are not idealist before the age of 30, you have no heart; if you are still one after that, you have no brain. sadly, I am 21 and I have no heart.

I am a realist...I know that this wouldn't work with most people...too much greed.

And your phrase there doesn't make any sense...if you are not before and are still one after?? Missing a not?

Anyway....as I said I would be happier that way...but I'm stuck.

I just don't see the reason that people feel the need to amass large amounts of monetary wealth...I don't care about money enough maybe. I mean..you can't take it with you when you die. I would rather better myself and help others than to make tons of money and own a Ferrari or some other crap.

 

[Zebo]

I've always believed that mankind will kill itself long before we kill the planet.

Humans are just a ravenous plague of bacteria that the Earth is presently coping with. No biggie all temporary.. Sure we may mess it up pretty bad, but it's amazing what 100 million years, a mere blip in the time-line of the planet earth, will do to allow the planet to recover from whatever damage we do.

We are our own worst enemy, not the planet's,

 

[swtethan]

no

 

[OCedHrt]

Here in Davis I always thought the air was pretty clean Until I saw this:
Air Quality
Pollution Locator

Which I thought was weird cause it seems pretty clean here, especially compared to where I came from (just here for school). Then I saw this:
Air Quality
Pollution Locator

And it all made sense.

 

[mercanucaribe]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe

Originally posted by: So
Nope. I care about my environment, but not the abstract thing for it's own sake.

If I ever meet your mother I'll put my foot in her ass for not raising you properly.

Right, sorry, I didnt join the cult and shold be beaten for disagreeing.

Really makes me realize the folly of my non mother earth religious ways.

Do you use drugs? 1/4 of prescription drugs came from wild plants.
Do you eat chocolate and drink coffee? Without viable rainforest environments either is viable and expensive to grow.
Like fish? Enjoy the effects of bioaccumulation if you eat fish high on the food chain! Of course your options are limited now thanks to overfishing and the downstream effects of riverine degradation.
Remember the Dust Bowl? It wouldn't have happened with proper land management, hence the formation of the Soil Conservation Service, now known as the NRCS http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/.

The point is you don't have to be a Birkenstock wearing, pot smoking hippie to give a damn about the environment, or hell, to appreciate billions of years worth of genetic diversity. If that isn't important, what is? Jesus?

1. And 3/4ths did not....your point?
2. Seems like the people who make a living selling coffee and chocolate might want to protect their profts then.
3. Fish Farm FTW
4. That's nice, I didn't say all conservation efforts were bad, ones that protect nature at man's expense because someone worships nature are the ones that I Have a problem with.

1. We've only even identified a small fraction of all plant species. The genetic information held in all the others is a very valuable thing when you consider possible uses we could find.
2. Except that the coffee market has been hard on small farmers, and land is being bought by big operations, which switch to sun coffee. This is profitable in the short term, but this isn't sustainable. The land is quickly degraded and becomes worthless. Doesn't matter to them because they've already made their profit.
3. Fish farming is ridiculously inefficient. You know what they feed salmon in farms? Fish. It creates a lot of pollution too. You do realize that fish farms are just floating cages in the sea... So if you think farmed fish are cleaner you're dead wrong.
4. Conservation almost never protects nature at the expense of man... unless that's what you call long term good at the expense of short term gain. Show me a single instance of conservation being detrimental to humanity.