Do they make water pipes that can expand and contract without bursting?

[Random Variable]

I find it silly that in the year 2005 I still have to remember to leave a faucet running when the temperature outside dips below 0°F.

 

[stonecold3169]

I live in upstate NY, and we always have a couple of weeks straight where it is -20 outdoors, and our pipes never have issues and we never have to leave faucets running. You can go to home improvement stores and pick up insulators and the like as well

 

[Howard]

They could, but it probably costs too much money.

 

[jfall]

Where I live it's generally 30-35 celcius during the summer and can get below -45 in the winter and we never had a problem with our pipes

 

[dartworth]

Leaving pipes exposed to such tempatures will cause a problem.

Simple solutions such as insulation and/or heat trace are inexpensive and easy to install...

 

[Random Variable]

Originally posted by: stonecold3169
I live in upstate NY, and we always have a couple of weeks straight where it is -20 outdoors, and our pipes never have issues and we never have to leave faucets running. You can go to home improvement stores and pick up insulators and the like as well

What about the pipes in the walls? How would you install these insulators?

 

[DrPizza]

Yes, they do make something that doesn't burst when it freezes: Pex
(cross-linked polymer)
The stuff is awesome and has only recently become used in the U.S. (but has been used in Europe for decades)

I also live in upstate NY. In my old house, I did have problems with a line that froze regularly during the winter. It was run in an exterior wall. I've always wondered who the fvcktard was who decided to run plumbing through an exterior wall. After my first few winters, it finally burst inside the wall. When I replaced it, I routed the plumbing through an interior wall. The route was a few feet longer, but it never froze again.

 

[stonecold3169]

Originally posted by: Random Variable

Originally posted by: stonecold3169
I live in upstate NY, and we always have a couple of weeks straight where it is -20 outdoors, and our pipes never have issues and we never have to leave faucets running. You can go to home improvement stores and pick up insulators and the like as well

What about the pipes in the walls? How would you install these insulators?

I think the theory here is that those pipes should already be pretty well insulated. We only ever wrap our pipes in the basement, and our water heater (not so it doesn't burst, but because it can save a ton of money.).

I know some people have well insulated basements, ours is cold as... err... anti-hell?

 

[Random Variable]

Originally posted by: stonecold3169

Originally posted by: Random Variable

Originally posted by: stonecold3169
I live in upstate NY, and we always have a couple of weeks straight where it is -20 outdoors, and our pipes never have issues and we never have to leave faucets running. You can go to home improvement stores and pick up insulators and the like as well

What about the pipes in the walls? How would you install these insulators?

I think the theory here is that those pipes should already be pretty well insulated. We only ever wrap our pipes in the basement, and our water heater (not so it doesn't burst, but because it can save a ton of money.).

I know some people have well insulated basements, ours is cold as... err... anti-hell?

In Dante's Inferno, Hell is depicted as being super cold.

 

[Soapy Bones]

I'm not sure about PEX being the wave of the future in plumbing though. It's widely used in RV's because of the volatility in temperatures that they can be used in, and subsequently stored in, and I've seen situations where the pex line has broken as well. It's much better thant the plastic lines that used to be used, but because it still relies upon plastic fittings and couplers I think it is still subject to freezing rather easily.

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

Hell is bad, Heaven is good. Hell is hot, Heaven is... cold?

 

[jadinolf]

Originally posted by: jfall
Where I live it's generally 30-35 celcius during the summer and can get below -45 in the winter and we never had a problem with our pipes

Well, believe me, people do have problems.

 

[Farbio]

been lucky here in new england so far, although not sure what will happen this year...they redid some piping and our water pipe from the street is only about 10" down
anyways, pipes in any relatively new house should be run in interior walls and shouldn't be a problem....how old is the house?

 

[JinLien]

Iron & copper was the standard for potable water distribution pre 1990s that is vulnerable to freezing, and water hammer affect. Polyurethane was a popular substitute to copper during the 80s because it isn?t prone to freezing & water hammer affect, however it was found to be toxic and was discontinue for potable water during the mid 90s.

PEX (cross-link polyethylene) is becoming the standard because it is cheaper than copper and is not prone to freezing or water hammer, however it is not as heat resistant as copper therefore require to be at least 18? away pre & after a heat source (boiler/hot water tank). PEX hasn't see much use till the 90s, therefore it still has to prove itself in time. One great attribute that cross link have is that heat will bring it back to the original form if kink/bent/flatten, therefore it doesn?t require elbow fittings for corners and is great for making long continuous run that eliminate leaks and vibration creeps problem found in copper.

PEX-AL-PEX (a layer of aluminum sandwich between 2 cross-link PE layers) is use for potable water, radiant heat transfer, and gas delivering that also hold up well to oxidation, freezing and water hammer.


[Edit]

I'm not sure about PEX being the wave of the future in plumbing though. It's widely used in RV's because of the volatility in temperatures that they can be used in, and subsequently stored in, and I've seen situations where the pex line has broken as well. It's much better thant the plastic lines that used to be used, but because it still relies upon plastic fittings and couplers I think it is still subject to freezing rather easily.

PEX is becoming the standard in new constructions, however it still has to be time tested. The early patent PEX was cornered by Wirsbo Aquapex that is very expensive and uses plastic fittings with patent plastic quick & easy crimps. However, other players have come into play and have reverse engineered crosslink technology that is 20~40% reform affective as Wirsbo Aquapex, and is much cheaper to purchase that uses copper/brass/plastic fittings. The copper/brass fittings uses metal crimp rings (50~75% cheaper Wirsbo and can be use with Wirsbo tubings) that hold up very well against freezing, however it reduces the ID (internal diameter) of the pipe and increase water speed/pressure at the junctions. Increasing water pressure, can create whistling noise, and can reduce the life span (oxide) of the fitting. These speculations have yet to be time proven, and at the present PEX system is expected to last more than 25 years.

 

[JinLien]

Originally posted by: Farbio
been lucky here in new england so far, although not sure what will happen this year...they redid some piping and our water pipe from the street is only about 10" down
anyways, pipes in any relatively new house should be run in interior walls and shouldn't be a problem....how old is the house?

Local codes varied from district to district, some require having water line only in the internal walls, others allow external walls, but must be behind the exterior wall insulations.

 

[DrPizza]

I wonder if that info on Wirsbo is dated. I went to their website quite a while ago to check on prices of brass fittings. My entire house is Aquapex. The price for materials was quite reasonable, especially compared to copper. (And especially since the only fittings needed are at the water source (pressure tank after well), at the hot water tank, and at the ends of lines. There are no elbows; simply straight runs (or home-runs) such as directly from tank to toilet. (actually, come to think of it, the toilet is the only line where I have an extra shutoff. Every other fixture, the shutoff is located at the tank and one continuous piece of tubing runs from there all the way to the fixture, such as the sink.

Anyway, eliminating the restriction on water flow at any fittings, there is a special tool for the pex which expands the pex to fit over the brass fitting which has the same inner diameter. IIRC during installation, we also placed another piece of Pex with inner diam. = outer diam. of the Pex. After applying a little heat to the pex at the fitting, it's allegedly stronger than it originally is and is all but leakproof at that fitting.

 

[CKent]

I thought this thread would be about a radical new type of bong

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

Originally posted by: RBachman
I thought this thread would be about a radical new type of bong

LOL... wow, that's just so out there

 

[JinLien]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
I wonder if that info on Wirsbo is dated. I went to their website quite a while ago to check on prices of brass fittings. My entire house is Aquapex. The price for materials was quite reasonable, especially compared to copper. (And especially since the only fittings needed are at the water source (pressure tank after well), at the hot water tank, and at the ends of lines. There are no elbows; simply straight runs (or home-runs) such as directly from tank to toilet. (actually, come to think of it, the toilet is the only line where I have an extra shutoff. Every other fixture, the shutoff is located at the tank and one continuous piece of tubing runs from there all the way to the fixture, such as the sink.

Anyway, eliminating the restriction on water flow at any fittings, there is a special tool for the pex which expands the pex to fit over the brass fitting which has the same inner diameter. IIRC during installation, we also placed another piece of Pex with inner diam. = outer diam. of the Pex. After applying a little heat to the pex at the fitting, it's allegedly stronger than it originally is and is all but leakproof at that fitting.

Thanks to competitions, Wirsbo fitting has droped in price, however the brass fittings still cost more and the plastic (patent Quick & Easy) fittings still costs significantly more than the competitions. Competitior tubings & fittings are generaly 20-40% less than Wirsbo (a fitting cost about $4-5.00 USD here in Canada, and crimp brass fitting is around $0.75~2.00 USD). Wirsbo quick & easy expansion crimp tool set cost close to $500 CAD and up that is easily damage if you accidentally bend the tip when expand a short length of tubing. A regular 1/2" polyurethane crimp tool that also uses to crimp metal ring onto PEX fittings can had for less than $200 CAD, therefore the over all cost is lower.

The cost different between Cu/Wirsbo PEX quick & easy/reversed engineer PEX isn't much when apply to a house, but the saving can be significant when compound over hundres to thousands of houses, and the big saving is in the installation time. Metal crimp fitting is a bit quicker to install when compare to quick & easy, and both takes significantly less time to install than copper.

Personally I have only seen quick & easy compression fitting leaks (during initial water pressure test @ greater than 100 psi) and require the use of a 3/4" polyurethane decrimper tool & heat gun/torch to repair (takes sometime when water is in the line and have to be careful of not to disturb the crimps beside it). The metal ring crimp only require a second snap to make it fit snuggly if it does leak or worst decrimp and pull the tube out & install a new ring, however I haven't experience a leak yet.

<-- was an IT worker, however I can make more money as a builder.

 

[skyking]

Our company uses PEX regularly in residential plumbing, with wirsbo fittings. I have never seen a leak.
The majority of our contracts are for commercial buildings though, so it amounts to a small percentage of the overall pipe use. Copper still rules the commercial side.