do not buy into the real estate bubble! - comments welcomed!

jasonjm

Member
Jul 14, 2000
94
0
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Hi all....

Almost bought a house this month, then after doing some research, I found out some shocking facts:

1) Mortgage foreclosures are at record highs. In the second quarter of 2002, 1.23 percent of home loans were in the foreclosure process, a record level. Over this same time period, almost 5 percent of mortgage loans were delinquent, up almost 20 percent from the average delinquency rate in 2000.

2) The amount of home equity loans outstanding stagnated between 1990 and 1995, only rising from $235.9 billion to $289.3 billion. That figure is was $701.5 billion in 2001. The amount of home equity loans is larger than all borrowing by credit cards in the United States

3) The housing bubble, represented by $12.04 trillion in homeowner home real estate valuation, and $10.757 trillion in original home mortgage and secondary housing market paper, is the biggest such bubble in history. It has more than doubled its size since 1995

4) the US dollar has fallen more than 10% in the last 6 months against major world currencies such as the Euro and the Pound. The collapsing dollar will eventually force some sort of intervention by the Fed, such as raising interest rates, because the Fed is running some nice budget deficits, and the fact that the dollar is looking pretty unattractive to foreign investment is going to cause a major crunch pretty soon. Apparently the current US enecomy has to attract something stupid like 1.3 billion dollars a day in foreign money to balance itself out. FY 2002, the federal budget, excluding Social Security, will show a deficit of $314 billion. This represents the largest budget decline in U.S. history, and it is the third-largest on-budget deficit in history

5) with interest rates so low, yielding almost no returns for traditional investments, as well as the stock market troubles, people are viewing housing as their investment, not as their place to live. Everyone who owns a house now plans to live in it for a few years, sell it for $100 000 more than they got it for, and then get a bigger loan and move into a bigger house. Like a pyramid scheme, eventually someone has to be caught at the bottom, there is not an infinite number of people buy into the housing market, and not an infinite prices that houses can reach.

6) Certain markets (specifically CA) have seen 5 yr property values increase by almost 100% - what exactly has made the same house which should be worth less as it is 5 years older, suddenly be worth more than double it was 5 years ago? did the population size of CA double in 5 yrs? do Californians know that their state is running at a shocking 25% budget deficit annually? After being stretched to their limit on mortage repayments, Californians are about to eat some NASTY tax increases somewhere.... my guess is a combination of Sales and property tax

7) The number of low- to moderate-income working families spending more than half their earnings on housing rose by over 67 percent between 1997 and 2001

8) baby boomers with money to invest but nowhere to put it have decided real esate is their cash cow, with record numbers owning 2 or 3 houses.

9) home price have outsripped rental prices by more than 30% since 1995

10) as a sharp reminder of the stock market fiasco, real estate agents are using the familiar lines of
"now IS the best time to buy" followed by
"you'll be left behind, it will just be more expensive next year" or
"property is the only investment that has made sense thorugh these troubled times" or my favorite
"our economy X is its own economy, we don't get affected like the rest of Y" - as if Y can't buy stuff from X anymore because they are too poor it won't affect you, ya right!

11) Americans are spending 14.3 percent of their take-home pay on debts - the highest percentage since 1986

12) more personal bankruptcies will be filed in 2002 than in any other year ever (although I must admit the reason for this could really be 2 fold: there are more ppl living in the country every year and looming bankrupcy law changes might have helped people decide to rather go bankrupt now)

13) we have 2 very possible wildcards that could really cause an unexpected shock: a prolonged middle east war, or another terrorist attack

14) probably the most troubling of all points is simply this: eventually there will be nowhere to lower interest rates too, and eventually, people will not be able to take out MORE loans against their houses. When this happens, the river of new money that has been keeping the economy going will dry up. And then businesses will lose sales, and then people will lose jobs, and then those same people won't be able to pay their mortages, and then the housing market will have plenty of available property for sale, and then the downward spiral will start

Of course these are mostly my own conclusions. I *encourage* you to tear them apart

I admit that I could be wrong, and that is why evidence to point that out to me is lovely! but as a long time Anandtech reader (and I really do like the overall community here, some very nice people), and a very active Hot Deals follower, I am trying to avoid possibly the most unhot deal anyone could ever make - buying a house and a few years later owing the bank $10 000's of dollars because you decide to move neighborhoods and your house isn't worth near what you payed for it...
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,839
2,625
136
The US tax code is stacked in favor of the homeowner, big time. If you can buy for the long term, ultimately its darn near impossible to lose financially in buying versus renting, even if you have a huge loss when you sell. I've been a homeowner for 20+ years in two regions of the country, both times prices plummeted after I bought (big time) but each time I'm ultimately ahead.

But personally, I've always felt you should buy what you need and want, and not for "investment."
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I agree with thump, and you are also forgetting about the most important truism in real estate after location location, and thats exponential population growth. So by in large real estate will go up always over the long haul due to land supply vs. people demand.

 

flot

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2000
3,197
0
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Cheaper than renting?! That all depends.

Here in S. Florida, prices in "trendy" areas are absurd. I'm currently renting an ~800 sq ft apartment for $950 a month. The apartments are being renovated and sold as condos - my unit will go for approx $180,000. After taxes, mortgage insurance, principle and interest, and condo fees (insurance and maintenance) the monthly bill for living here will be almost $1800.

That's insane.

Houses in the area are just as ridiculous - 1200 sq ft homes which 5 years ago sold for $130,000-$190,000 are now going for $400,000. I am having a REALLY hard time justifying buying anything in this market. Yes, interest rates are low, the tax breaks would be great, etc - but this is absurd. New townhouses are selling in the mid $350s.

Also what *I* think will be responsible for a financial collapse isn't rising prices, but the refinancing nonsense. Almost everyone I know has "refinanced" their home in the last year. However, 80% of them didn't do it just for the lower interest rate - most of them took out 20 or 30 thousand dollars at the same time, because "Their house appraised for so much more". Well that's great - now instead of paying off a $150,000 mortage, they're paying off a $180,000 mortgage - completely negating any equity they had put into their house. All my friends who bought 3-5 years ago are freaking out, telling me to buy something, look at how much money they "made" etc etc - but frankly while some of these houses went from $200k to $400k, I sure as hell don't think they're ever going to be worth $600k...

 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,949
575
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Certain markets (specifically CA) have seen 5 yr property values increase by almost 100%
You ain't kidding. My parents paid $126,000 for a newly constructed home in 1998, it is now appraised at $215,000 with no additional improvements, just good up-keep. But that is not as bad as some areas such as Lake Tahoe, where they experienced 300% - 400% increases in property values during a 10 year period from roughly 1988 - 1998.
what exactly has made the same house which should be worth less as it is 5 years older, suddenly be worth more than double it was 5 years ago? did the population size of CA double in 5 yrs?
Huh? You must fundamentally misunderstand the real estate market. Cars and boats depreciate, homes do not, they appreciate. Is that new information for you?

Property values never decline unless the neighborhood or local economy goes to hell in a handbasket. Inflated property values will 'correct' themselves by increasing at a slower rate for several years, not decreasing in principle value, unless the local market remains stagnant for so long that a lot of sellers are having difficulty selling at or near the appraised value and must reduce the asking price.
 

bonk102

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2000
5,473
2
0
Actually, it's cheaper than renting. That's for damn sure

i agree 100%, i plan to spend 5+ years in orlando florida, and i priced rental vs. buying a house down there.
if i were to accept a 30 year mortage, or even a 15 year one, and move 3 other roomates into the apt with me, or even if i were to move out and keep 4 roomates there, i could have the mortage paid off in about 6-7 years. and that's actually with 3 roomates, if i add the 4th i could be paid off in 5 years and i'd have the house to sell for money to start my purchasing on a newer, bigger house,
 

Lvis

Golden Member
Oct 10, 1999
1,747
0
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For some in New England it took years for their home prices to recover from the early late 80's early 90's "bubble". While it's true you should eventually make out ok, it can cramp your lifestyle living in a home you don't want. It can't be fun living in a home with an upside down loan on it. (house worth less than loan amount)

It's rare, but it can happen. Condo's were affected the most up here, single family the least. If I were nervous about the economy, I would either wait, or make sure I was buying a really desirable piece of property. (and knew for certain I could live there for an extended period)
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
8,345
126
It's just like any other sort of investment - buy low, sell high. Don't buy overpriced stock.

I'd end up loosing my ass if I decided I wanted to move from Iowa to California, or to some parts of the east coast. My $120,000 home here would end up running 2-3 times that amount in those places. It's ridiculous really, and IMHO, you'd have to be half retarded to do it. The amount of on hand cash I'd need to buy a house out there is mind boggling.

Now, if you flip things around, and sell your modest $400,000 home out there, and moved over to where I am, you'd be living like a king. Location, location, location.

It's an investment. How good of an investment is up to you.
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
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For some in New England it took years for their home prices to recover from the early late 80's early 90's "bubble". While it's true you should eventually make out ok, it can cramp your lifestyle living in a home you don't want. It can't be fun living in a home with an upside down loan on it. (house worth less than loan amount)

actually, new england is a bad example. it wasn't so much that the housing bubble burst in new england, the ECONOMY basically went bust in new england. same was true in parts of texas. but those are the exceptions to the housing rule.

also, the federal tax codes regarding housing really encouraged people to buy and sell every 2 or 3 years. this is part of the reason for the so called "bubble". i definitely agree that housing will slow down, but don't expect houses to depreciate.

there is one interesting to watch out for tho. because of the slow down in the economy, the housing market has definitely taken a hit lately, as a result it's possible to get a bargain w/ new housing starts because there will be (in my opinion anyway) an overreaction to this slump and new housing will probably be priced lower than it needs to be.
 

Spac3d

Banned
Jul 3, 2001
6,651
1
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My friends in California built a house for $715,000 2 years ago. Couple weeks ago they got an offer of 1.5 million, but they turned it down because they were sick of moving. Crazy people live in California.

Spac3d
I lived in California for toooo long.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
Its freaking crazy in Irvine, CA. The rent prices are ridicrous... I can buy a nice town house with the rent I'm paying. :|
 

arcas

Platinum Member
Apr 10, 2001
2,155
2
0
I'll just respond to some of these.

1. There are two causes here: people buying bigger houses than they can really afford and lenders lowering their requirements in an effort to sell more mortgages. When I had my central air unit serviced earlier this year, the repair guy told stories about how he'd done service calls in several of the houses in a uber-high-class neighborhood about 2 miles from here and how they had half their rooms were unfurnished and closed off. The people living there simply couldn't afford to heat/cool the whole house. These people probably bought the house as a short-term investment or to simply "make a statement" to passers-by. I won't pass judgement on either of these but when your financial cushion is that thin, it doesn't take much to send your bills out of control. If people would make sure they have enough money saved away to pay at least 8-12 months of estimated bills before buying a house, alot of these foreclosures could be avoided. I realize it's difficult to save that much money sometimes but I can imagine going through a foreclosure and the resulting credit hassles is even more difficult.

2. Even though you draw a distinction between H.E. debt and credit-card debt, I'm going to combine them into "debt." People in general lack good financial common sense. I'm not referring to lack of Wall Street savvy, I'm just talking about the inability to stick to a budget. It doesn't even have to be a complicated budget. Just ask yourself "How much did I earn last month? How much did I spend? Is the first number bigger than the second?" This is a problem that I think is going to blow up in the next five years or so and it's going to have repercussions throughout the economy.

6) I disagree here. I'm not aware of a housing market anywhere where property values depreciate over time as a general rule. So while a 100% appreciation over 5 years is silly (but not unexpected given the recent decade-long bull market), 3-5% annual appreciation for an existing home is not unreasonable.

10) This is just sales talk. If you make financial decisions based on sales talk, you're in pretty poor shape. Don't pay it any attention and do your own due dilligence.

14) There are some problems with this statement. First, you have to understand that the overnight interest rate (this is the rate banks pay to borrow money from the Treasury and is the rate the Fed adjusts) actually has little direct impact on things like mortgage rates and credit card interest rates. There is some trickle-down effect but, for instance, mortgage rates are largely determined by the Wall Street bond market (and thus, investors themselves). This actually troubles the Fed a bit because consumer interest rates have not fallen nearly as steeply as the overnight bank rate.

I think the bigger threat consumers pose to the economy is if/when they begin to realize that they're already carrying too much debt and decide to slow their spending. One way or another this has to happen. It will either be voluntary in which case the slowdown is gradual or through mass personal bankruptcies in which case the slowdown will probably be more severe. I certainly don't think I'd be buying stock in companies where credit card interest makes up a significant portion of the revenue (Sears is already running into problems with defaults).

Anyway...

I can't offer any advice on what to do when your local housing market has appreciated 100% over the last 5 years. There are probably pockets around here that have risen like that but in general, 30-50% seems to be the rule around here which works out to somewhere around 7% annual on average which isn't unreasonable given the economic boom over the same time period. But in any housing market, bubble or not, make sure you have enough liquid assets to cover your bills for some number of months in the event you lose your job.

 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
81
"Almost bought a house this month..."

What's the alternative? If you've got a better solution, I'd LOVE to hear it!

"...with interest rates so low..."

...NOW is the time to get a low fixed mortgage! Sheesh! You will only, ever be obligated to pay that same mortgage payment for the next 15 or 30 years. Your income will likely increase, yet that payment stays the same. Rent would increase, as would housing prices. NOW is the time to commit.

"Everyone who owns a house now plans to live in it for a few years, sell it for $100 000 more than they got it for, and then get a bigger loan and move into a bigger house."

Everyone? I bought mine 20 years ago, and I'm still in the same house. Got laid off a couple months ago and feel almost no pinch at all, since the mortgage payment is so pitifully low. Suit yourself...

"Certain markets (specifically CA) have seen 5 yr property values increase by almost 100% - what exactly has made the same house which should be worth less as it is 5 years older, suddenly be worth more than double it was 5 years ago?"

It's worth what the market will bare. Will the bubble burst? Yep, but when? You takes your chances in a hyper market like that. Somebody will be left holding the bag, but nobody knows who or when. If you would enable your profile, or say where you intend to buy, we'd have a hell of a lot better chance of guessing what your odds are. If housing prices are going crazy there, chances are rent is too. Under no circumstances would renting be preferable. If you're in some kind of communist, "rent controlled" housing, you might as well keep it. That's a gift from your Socialist, left leaning neighbors that won't be repeated anywhere else in the country from now on.

Again, what is the alternative? :confused:
 

HappyPuppy

Lifer
Apr 5, 2001
16,997
2
71
Property values never decline unless the neighborhood or local economy goes to hell in a handbasket. Inflated property values will 'correct' themselves by increasing at a slower rate for several years, not decreasing in principle value, unless the local market remains stagnant for so long that a lot of sellers are having difficulty selling at or near the appraised value and must reduce the asking price

_______________________________________________________________________________--

So very, very untrue. Housing prices are cyclic. They fluctuate constantly.
 

NetworkDad

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2001
3,435
1
0
I'll hopefully have a new house in the next 30 - 60 days.

At the beginning of october, i was quoted 6.112% - Now im getting quoted at 5.875 :D
 

tm37

Lifer
Jan 24, 2001
12,436
1
0
There are no sure fire Short term investments. If you are looking to make money over a 2 year Span then I would go with a CD.

Yes housing markets do fluctiate and the problem is caused alot by people willing to be"house poor" in order to get a house "they can be proud of."


Over the long haul however there arer very few investments that do as well as real estate. If you buy a reasonable house and live in it for 5 years then you should be able to easily rent it for the payment plus. THis of course allows you to build equity. I bought about 1 1/2 ago for 115,000 and my house is worth about 135 now. You need to tqake a look at growth trends in YOUR AREA. How are people paying for thoose houses and paying such outragous prices? Could it be that they are in a highpaying job that will soon suffer stagnation? (see IT Sector) Everything in the economy is cyclical, including employment. Wages rise and fall in most sector esp. NEW types of jobs. In southern california they have been saying that the marlet will drop for some time yet in San DIego tthere continues to be a lot of growth.

WHen I bought my house I did so because I wanted to live in a house and I was able to get said house for Just a few dollars more than my rent was. I bought because with a growing family I needed more room and renting seemed to be throwing money away. I donot intend to take money out of my equity but instead I want to just pay the thing off and live rent free.
 

Ly2n

Senior member
Dec 26, 2001
345
0
0
While I agree that this may not be the best time to buy a house (near the top, the bubble may burst), each person has to do some homework for theirselves. Am I going to stay in the home for at least 5 years? Under 5 years, the only way to make money is via price inflation, since equity doesn't equal costs. If you answer yes to the first question then: would payment minus tax advantage but plus maintainance be equal to monthly rent? In otherwords are the costs the same? If so, what you have is a nice savings account. Even if prices go down, the equity that you have will be money ahead. The last bit of homework that should be done, is the cost of the loan. In stead of using the computer to figure the loan payments, invest in a book. Why? Because the book shows without any work how much that 30 year mortage saves you in monthly payment (very little) and how much it costs you (a great deal). I tend to write the mortage payment at the highest I can afford and for the shortest time.
 

jasonjm

Member
Jul 14, 2000
94
0
0
hey all!

just want to make some points - I realize owning property is a great investment long term. I understand prices historically will always trend upwards due to population increase and inflation. I also understand you get the immediate benefit of improving your quality of life as soon as you plonk down the money.

BUT if I believe this to be the peak or the top of the market, why would I buy now - its not like I am living on the street and nothing is for rent? it makes no sense. For everyone saying "its a great long term investment" - a decline could take 10 years to recover, same as stocks!

So why buy now if this is what I believe to be the peak? I have time to sit on the sidelines, 1 or 2 years.... - now if this ISN'T the peak, of which no-one can show me evidence to support, then yes I would buy now, because in 2 years things will just be more expensive.

I live in Los Angeles California (santa monica), where I rent at the moment. The condos I have been looking at buying are in the $500 000 range. The condo which I am renting now is of similar quality (maybe slightly less, say $450 000), and I am paying $1600 per month in rent. Because a lot of my work is from home, about 40% of that amount I can claim for a tax break. And the place I am renting has a few things that very few condos that are for sale in my area have - a swimming pool and a gym in the complex.

Now if I bought a condo at $500 000 with 10% down 30yr fixed, my monthly repayments would be something like $2700 (ballpark). Added to that is homeowners due of $250 a month MINIMUM, some are $350. And then property taxes would be more than $6000 per year. So basically I would be paying roughly $3500 a month.... more than double of what I am paying now - and that is AFTER putting down a huge chunk of money for the mortgage (and remember I am getting some tax breaks right now - I understand a lot of that $3500 would offer some tax breaks, slowly decreasing as the payments start paying back more of the principal and less of the interest)

Actal houses in my area are completely unaffordable, anything that is more than 1400 sqft and in OK condition is more than $1million, so I won't even look. And I need to stay in this area because I drive all over the place for work, and this is one of the most central areas, I refuse to spend 3 or 4 hours a day in the car.




 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
8,345
126
Like I said in my post - YMMV depending on where you live. It just boggles my mind that somebody will pay $500,000 for something that goes for under $100,000 in just about any other part of the country.

For YOU renting may be a better option (especially with the home office deduction), but for the vast majority of us who don't have the same BS property values that you do, then buying IS a smart decision.

 

LH

Golden Member
Feb 16, 2002
1,604
0
0
Over a five year period, Id be paying $60000 in rent. 3-2-2 1800sqf houses go for $100,000-$120,000. Someone could piss money into the wind and rent, or buy a house and get atleast some money(maybe more money), back. It all depends on where you live.
 

jasonjm

Member
Jul 14, 2000
94
0
0
ok - yes I concede it really does depend where you live. The fact that some people are in areas where they can buy a house with 3 bedrooms for under $200 000 is just mind boggling to me. What a deal! unbelievable......

It seems to me that obviously areas where prices haven't gone crazy in the last 5 years (say a total of 30% property increase value or less) should not be affected much at all by a drop in housing prices, and buying in an area like this would make the best sense in the whole world!

However, places where I live, and a lot of my friends live, like San Diego, Los Angeles, NY, Washington DC, Boston, prices have just gone BALLISTIC.

Now - the debate is simple: are these areas really that valuable? is the location and space at that much of a premium? What has changed in the last 5 years that makes a property twice as valuable?

OR

Is it due to the fact that because these areas are wealthy, and people are using housing as an investment scheme - like the stock market bubble of the late 90s - that money is just being pumped into the market, chasing those easy big juicy returns?

What scares me for example is that take a place like the San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles. There is still a lot of space to build in many areas of the Valley.
Your location if you don't work in the valley is TERRIBLE, your daily commute is usually more than an hour each way. In summer the place is like a furnace, more than 100 almost every day, up to 115. So it is hardly the best location in Los Angeles and there is space to build more. BUT housing has also almost doubled in price in the valley. What legitimate factors could be causing this?






 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: jasonjm
ok - yes I concede it really does depend where you live. The fact that some people are in areas where they can buy a house with 3 bedrooms for under $200 000 is just mind boggling to me. What a deal! unbelievable......

It seems to me that obviously areas where prices haven't gone crazy in the last 5 years (say a total of 30% property increase value or less) should not be affected much at all by a drop in housing prices, and buying in an area like this would make the best sense in the whole world!

However, places where I live, and a lot of my friends live, like San Diego, Los Angeles, NY, Washington DC, Boston, prices have just gone BALLISTIC.

Now - the debate is simple: are these areas really that valuable? is the location and space at that much of a premium? What has changed in the last 5 years that makes a property twice as valuable?

OR

Is it due to the fact that because these areas are wealthy, and people are using housing as an investment scheme - like the stock market bubble of the late 90s - that money is just being pumped into the market, chasing those easy big juicy returns?

What scares me for example is that take a place like the San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles. There is still a lot of space to build in many areas of the Valley.
Your location if you don't work in the valley is TERRIBLE, your daily commute is usually more than an hour each way. In summer the place is like a furnace, more than 100 almost every day, up to 115. So it is hardly the best location in Los Angeles and there is space to build more. BUT housing has also almost doubled in price in the valley. What legitimate factors could be causing this?

California does have problems with environmental laws. If you can prove some rare and useless species habitat is in danger, you can stop any development. Do this a few times and land get real expensive, real fast.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,949
575
126
So very, very untrue. Housing prices are cyclic. They fluctuate constantly.
Prices on NEWLY constructed homes fluctuate (before they are bought or lived in), not deeded homes with vested owners within established communities.

Like I said, the first method of correcting inflated housing markets is that the values will simply fail to increase at the higher rates, the annual rate of increase will drop, either barely keeping pace with inflation or remaining stagnant, but the homes hold their principle values.

If the market remains stagnant so long that sellers cannot sell at their appraised rates, and must reduce the asking price, other home values will follow.

Remember, 98% of your home's appraised value is "what other people in the community are selling comparable homes for".

You wasted a post thinking you were disagreeing with me, but you really didn't.