Do I need a new server?

[suklee]

First question: Can you see any way to consolidate our servers? We currently have 3 servers:

1. P4-1.8A, 512MB RAM, 40GB HDD, WIN2k3 server.
a PDC for our local office of ~10 machines (is this not a waste???)

2. XP2500+, 512MB RAM, 80GB HDD, Win2k3 server.
Mail server running MDaemon, also processes mails for remote office of ~20 machines
Doubles as a FTP server, but doesn't get used much

3. P4-1.5, 512MB RAM, 20GB HDD, Win2k server.
Print server hooked up to i560 inkjet/HP1100 LaserJet and Fax server running Relayfax

I'm wondering if they can be consolidated, freeing up a machine for me to upgrade?

...

 

[suklee]

... (part 2)

Our company is purchasing a new software system for (hopefully complete) computerization of our workflow. The system is written with VB.net and will run MySQL database server. The min. requirements given were:

Intel Xeon 1GHz, 512MB Ram, 1GB HDD space, Windows 2003 Server

The new system will basically store all our customers, vendors, products/items (with photos), and related documents in the database, so it's going to grow over time.

In the case that you guys suggest I buy an entire new server, I'm thinking of to outfitting it with:

- AMD64 3000+. thought about going Intel "for the stability", but I think that's a common misconception.
- Definitely going with RAID 1 as a fast and easy way of obtaining redundancy, possibly putting 2x 74GB Raptors together if it helps access times.
- Motherboard: biggest question mark at this point. Should I go for a mobo with on-board RAID 1?
- Going with 1GB of RAM minimum.
- Don't care about video or sound

 

[DaFinn]

Hmm,

I have for all the tasks you mentioned a:
P4 2,53Ghz/ 1Gb RAM ECC/ 18Gb U160SCSI (boot W2K3 server) + 2x 120Gb Maxtor DM 9+ SATA in RAID 1/ on an ASUS P4G8X-deluxe board (I7205).
It is serving 6 people in the office + 2 remote users +FTP server for our customers (~40 occasional users). Its plenty for the task, so if you're putting togehter an AMD64 (any) system you would be fine assigning all tasks to just that 1 server...

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: DaFinn
Hmm,

I have for all the tasks you mentioned a:
P4 2,53Ghz/ 1Gb RAM ECC/ 18Gb U160SCSI (boot W2K3 server) + 2x 120Gb Maxtor DM 9+ SATA in RAID 1/ on an ASUS P4G8X-deluxe board (I7205).
It is serving 6 people in the office + 2 remote users +FTP server for our customers (~40 occasional users). Its plenty for the task, so if you're putting togehter an AMD64 (any) system you would be fine assigning all tasks to just that 1 server...

hardware wise yes. all the tasks OP mentioned can be done on one machine, even any of the 3 machines in the OP could probably handle it (tho i'd beef up the HD system if i were to consolidate).

however, they may have put the ftp / mail server on a separate machine for security reasons.

 

[djdrastic]

Ehmm I just dont like keeping mail and directory services / authentication ob the same box , unless you go with something like vmware etc . My experience has told me you tend to put too many of your eggs in one basket


If I could give you a tip , write down a list of which services are the most important on the box , and try and make a worst case scenario kinda form / checklist and then see how badly you will be burned with a particular situation.

Ex , the mail server app needs re-installation , but if you consolidated everything into one box , you wouldnt be able to restart the server in normal working hours since , doing that will take off the sql server , the authentication , dhcp , dns etc

What would happen if one of the nics goes bad ?

 

[suklee]

Originally posted by: djdrastic
Ehmm I just dont like keeping mail and directory services / authentication ob the same box , unless you go with something like vmware etc . My experience has told me you tend to put too many of your eggs in one basket


If I could give you a tip , write down a list of which services are the most important on the box , and try and make a worst case scenario kinda form / checklist and then see how badly you will be burned with a particular situation.

Ex , the mail server app needs re-installation , but if you consolidated everything into one box , you wouldnt be able to restart the server in normal working hours since , doing that will take off the sql server , the authentication , dhcp , dns etc

What would happen if one of the nics goes bad ?

I actually hadn't planned on consolidating everything into one machine. The SQL server was going to be on its own no matter what, should have made that clear. I don't think I have as much expertise (nor the guts ) as DaFinn to put everything on just one box. Besides, I have 3 machines now, it would be good enough already if I could cut out just one server out of my OP - which, judging by the responses so far, seems to be very possible.

I like PlatinumGold's suggestion to keep the mail/ftp separate. But I also want to reserve the fastest machine (XP2500+) for the new SQL system. Here are my proposed changes, please comment-

1. Move all print/fax server duties to the P4-1.8A machine, since all it was doing was a PDC (what a waste!)
2. Move mail duties to the P4-1.5, and upgrade it to a 120GB HD. the CPU should be ample for mail/ftp duties.
3. Reserve the XP2500+ for the new software system, beefing up the RAM and HD components.

-On my current print server (P4-1.5), we would always experience long waits if printing image files to the laser printer. Will more RAM and/or speedier HD system help?

 

[djdrastic]

Originally posted by: Kai920

Originally posted by: djdrastic
Ehmm I just dont like keeping mail and directory services / authentication ob the same box , unless you go with something like vmware etc . My experience has told me you tend to put too many of your eggs in one basket


If I could give you a tip , write down a list of which services are the most important on the box , and try and make a worst case scenario kinda form / checklist and then see how badly you will be burned with a particular situation.

Ex , the mail server app needs re-installation , but if you consolidated everything into one box , you wouldnt be able to restart the server in normal working hours since , doing that will take off the sql server , the authentication , dhcp , dns etc

What would happen if one of the nics goes bad ?

I actually hadn't planned on consolidating everything into one machine. The SQL server was going to be on its own no matter what, should have made that clear. I don't think I have as much expertise (nor the guts ) as DaFinn to put everything on just one box. Besides, I have 3 machines now, it would be good enough already if I could cut out just one server out of my OP - which, judging by the responses so far, seems to be very possible.

I like PlatinumGold's suggestion to keep the mail/ftp separate. But I also want to reserve the fastest machine (XP2500+) for the new SQL system. Here are my proposed changes, please comment-

1. Move all print/fax server duties to the P4-1.8A machine, since all it was doing was a PDC (what a waste!)
2. Move mail duties to the P4-1.5, and upgrade it to a 120GB HD. the CPU should be ample for mail/ftp duties.
3. Reserve the XP2500+ for the new software system, beefing up the RAM and HD components.

-On my current print server (P4-1.5), we would always experience long waits if printing image files to the laser printer. Will more RAM and/or speedier HD system help?

It does sound like a good plan , but like I said make a risk matrix with a worst case scenario , try and figure out how important it will be if your printer and your authentication goes down . I'm assuming its a AD Domain with all those AD roles attached to that one server ?


Your printing speed is impacted by [in no particular order]

1) NIC CARD
2)HARD DISK SPEED
3)AMMOUNT OF MEMORY on pc
4)HARD DISK SIZE
5)How the jobs are being spooled to the printer
6) Ammount of memory on printer
7)Speed of CPU OF Printer
7)Type of printer (Postscript etc)
8)Interface connecting printer to pc

 

[jose]

Have you had any problems w/ any of the servers going down before ?
A fast scsi hd system is always good..

One of my customers have a p3-800 w/512mb ram, w/ 2 - 36g scsi hd's running:

RedHat Linux 3.0 ES serving 15 ppl. w/ the following apps.

Database - Unify ELS RDBMS,
Samba for file & print
Squid for web proxy
Email , anti-virus & spam filtering
Firewall - iptables

Their runnig fine, but I'd like them to upgrade to a P4-3.0 w/ 1 gig of ram.

What ever you do, try to get scsi hd's, you'll notice the difference.

Regards,
Jose

 

[suklee]

Originally posted by: djdrastic
It does sound like a good plan , but like I said make a risk matrix with a worst case scenario , try and figure out how important it will be if your printer and your authentication goes down . I'm assuming its a AD Domain with all those AD roles attached to that one server ?


Your printing speed is impacted by [in no particular order]

1) NIC CARD
2)HARD DISK SPEED
3)AMMOUNT OF MEMORY on pc
4)HARD DISK SIZE
5)How the jobs are being spooled to the printer
6) Ammount of memory on printer
7)Speed of CPU OF Printer
7)Type of printer (Postscript etc)
8)Interface connecting printer to pc

We've had cases of the servers going down, but 99% of the time they were totally software related; the hardware hasn't caused many problems as far as I know. It wouldn't be such a big deal if the PDC went down... printing/fax receiving might be more of a problem though. ALT-N's relayfax seems to be slightly buggy, there IS a new version out but we haven't upgraded yet. Might give it a go once it has stabilized.

Hopefully upping the RAM to one gig will improve spooling speeds. I believe it's connected using the parallel interface.

 

[suklee]

Originally posted by: jose
A fast scsi hd system is always good..
What ever you do, try to get scsi hd's, you'll notice the difference.

Server1 (P4-1.8A)
PDC / Printing / Fax server - I can pick up a HGST 20GB, 15K RPM (Ultra160) for about US$100, but the Tekram 390U3W controller is gonna cost another US$150, bringing the total to US$250. I guess 20GB will be enough for PDC/print/fax, but will we notice any speed differences? I'd like to go SCSI, but is it justified for these 3 usages? Maybe the spooling will be a little better, but I can't imagine it'd be lightning fast for the others...

Server2 (P4-1.5)
Mail server - not going SCSI; Just upgrading to a 120GB PATA hard drive.

Server3 (XP2500+)
SQL server makes the most sense for the SCSI system. But, it will be able to take in a Raptor 74GB (@US$200 each) via the onboard SATA interface. I can then keep the 80GB as a backup drive? This would be much cheaper than going all out for SCSI...

What bout adding a SATA raid 1 card and getting 2x 74GB Raptors?

 

[DaFinn]

Originally posted by: Kai920

Originally posted by: jose
A fast scsi hd system is always good..
What ever you do, try to get scsi hd's, you'll notice the difference.

Server1 (P4-1.8A)
PDC / Printing / Fax server - I can pick up a HGST 20GB, 15K RPM (Ultra160) for about US$100, but the Tekram 390U3W controller is gonna cost another US$150, bringing the total to US$250. I guess 20GB will be enough for PDC/print/fax, but will we notice any speed differences? I'd like to go SCSI, but is it justified for these 3 usages? Maybe the spooling will be a little better, but I can't imagine it'd be lightning fast for the others...

Server2 (P4-1.5)
Mail server - not going SCSI; Just upgrading to a 120GB PATA hard drive.

Server3 (XP2500+)
SQL server makes the most sense for the SCSI system. But, it will be able to take in a Raptor 74GB (@US$200 each) via the onboard SATA interface. I can then keep the 80GB as a backup drive? This would be much cheaper than going all out for SCSI...

What bout adding a SATA raid 1 card and getting 2x 74GB Raptors?

Server1:
No point in going to SCSI, will not speed up printing times. You can play around w. print settings and see if there is any difference. Mostly influencing print times is the printer itself (cpu and memory). The most speed increase comes from adding more memory to the printer. Dunno what you have atm though...

Server2:
SCSI also not necessary... hope you have a good backup plan though

Server3:
With the amount of users you have, going SATA Raid 1 card seems as the best "cheap" solution. It adds some piece of mind and will be plenty for your use. In general SQL servers love SCSI, this is apparent especially when the usage is high... but for ~10 users you'll be just fine w. SATA Raid1.

 

[suklee]

Originally posted by: DaFinn
Server1:
No point in going to SCSI, will not speed up printing times. You can play around w. print settings and see if there is any difference. Mostly influencing print times is the printer itself (cpu and memory). The most speed increase comes from adding more memory to th printer. Dunno what you have atm though...

It's HP LaserJet 1200, currently the installed driver is for PS (Postscript)... it shows 8-11MB total printer memory, and 3906KB available for PS. Not sure what the CPU is...

Server2:
SCSI also not necessary... hope you have a good backup plan though

Bought a DVD burner (external enclosure) for this purpose but have found it to be too slow, not to mention takes multiple DVDs to fit all the data. been pretty lax about backing up since...

Server3:
With the amount of users you have, going SATA Raid 1 card seems as the best "cheap" solution. It adds some piece of mind and will be plenty for your use. In general SQL servers love SCSI, this is apparent especially when the usage is high... but for ~10 users you'll be just fine w. SATA Raid1.

Thanks for the input. Most likely gonna go with SATA Raid 1 with 2x 74GB Raptors, unless the software house has other recommendations.

 

[DaFinn]

Originally posted by: Kai920

Originally posted by: DaFinn
Server1:
No point in going to SCSI, will not speed up printing times. You can play around w. print settings and see if there is any difference. Mostly influencing print times is the printer itself (cpu and memory). The most speed increase comes from adding more memory to th printer. Dunno what you have atm though...

It's HP LaserJet 1200, currently the installed driver is for PS (Postscript)... it shows 8-11MB total printer memory, and 3906KB available for PS. Not sure what the CPU is...

Server2:
SCSI also not necessary... hope you have a good backup plan though

Bought a DVD burner (external enclosure) for this purpose but have found it to be too slow, not to mention takes multiple DVDs to fit all the data. been pretty lax about backing up since...

Server3:
With the amount of users you have, going SATA Raid 1 card seems as the best "cheap" solution. It adds some piece of mind and will be plenty for your use. In general SQL servers love SCSI, this is apparent especially when the usage is high... but for ~10 users you'll be just fine w. SATA Raid1.

Thanks for the input. Most likely gonna go with SATA Raid 1 with 2x 74GB Raptors, unless the software house has other recommendations.

Laserjet 1200... OK, thats your problem right there.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: DaFinn

Originally posted by: Kai920

Originally posted by: DaFinn
Server1:
No point in going to SCSI, will not speed up printing times. You can play around w. print settings and see if there is any difference. Mostly influencing print times is the printer itself (cpu and memory). The most speed increase comes from adding more memory to th printer. Dunno what you have atm though...

It's HP LaserJet 1200, currently the installed driver is for PS (Postscript)... it shows 8-11MB total printer memory, and 3906KB available for PS. Not sure what the CPU is...

Server2:
SCSI also not necessary... hope you have a good backup plan though

Bought a DVD burner (external enclosure) for this purpose but have found it to be too slow, not to mention takes multiple DVDs to fit all the data. been pretty lax about backing up since...

Server3:
With the amount of users you have, going SATA Raid 1 card seems as the best "cheap" solution. It adds some piece of mind and will be plenty for your use. In general SQL servers love SCSI, this is apparent especially when the usage is high... but for ~10 users you'll be just fine w. SATA Raid1.

Thanks for the input. Most likely gonna go with SATA Raid 1 with 2x 74GB Raptors, unless the software house has other recommendations.

Laserjet 1200... OK, thats your problem right there.

agreed.

seriously.

i don't understand the logic of buying a cheap printer and then using a PC as a print server. why not just buy a nice printer with Network capabilities and have each PC print directly to the printer via the lan?

 

[txxxx]

On a serious note, forget MySQL if you can, complex query times are not worth comparing to MS SQL / Oracle. Im sure you can get a good deal from either provider, for a small business.

 

[Lyfer]

Dude get a dell, that way if the server fvcks up on you, you can blame it on them! Can you imagine putting the extra hours of work just getting the system to run 100% stable (which hopefully it will)?

 

[suklee]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
agreed.

seriously.

i don't understand the logic of buying a cheap printer and then using a PC as a print server. why not just buy a nice printer with Network capabilities and have each PC print directly to the printer via the lan?

Ouch! Seriously, the printer was here before I started working last year. I'm not going to be able to put in a case for a new laser printer, is there nothing *simple* I can do to improve things. Does the Postscript driver have anything to do with it, because I remember I had a couple other choices when installing the printer driver. If not, no biggie... we are not some huge multi-dollar conglomerate that requires a top-notch laser printer...

Actually, looking at the specs it says that memory is expandable to 72MB... I may look into doubling the current memory if the price is right.

 

[suklee]

Originally posted by: txxxx
On a serious note, forget MySQL if you can, complex query times are not worth comparing to MS SQL / Oracle. Im sure you can get a good deal from either provider, for a small business.

Not sure if MS SQL is viable as we'll be installing Linux onto the server...

 

[Daniel]

Originally posted by: Kai920

Server2:
SCSI also not necessary... hope you have a good backup plan though

Bought a DVD burner (external enclosure) for this purpose but have found it to be too slow, not to mention takes multiple DVDs to fit all the data. been pretty lax about backing up since...
.

Being lucky in the past really doesn't mean anything here. I'd seriously consider doing raid on all of the servers and getting a real backup plan in place. Ask yourself how much of a problem will the business have if you had a drive failure and you lose everything on the drive and you last backed up weeks ago?

 

[suklee]

Originally posted by: Daniel

Originally posted by: Kai920

Server2:
SCSI also not necessary... hope you have a good backup plan though

Bought a DVD burner (external enclosure) for this purpose but have found it to be too slow, not to mention takes multiple DVDs to fit all the data. been pretty lax about backing up since...
.

Being lucky in the past really doesn't mean anything here. I'd seriously consider doing raid on all of the servers and getting a real backup plan in place. Ask yourself how much of a problem will the business have if you had a drive failure and you lose everything on the drive and you last backed up weeks ago?

Hmm, never thought about that (for the mail server).. but good idea, all it takes is another HD and a RAID1 card.

Does the 2nd HD have to be *exactly* the same as the first, in capacity, make/model, etc.? (looks like there are some good explanations here... to avoid troubles I should have a very similar HD)

edit - assuming that I could find the exact same HD, I could 'copy' from that to make a RAID1 array correct? It would take some work/research, but I assume it could be done?

 

[suklee]

UPDATE: here's what I am doing:

1. P4-1.8A, 512MB RAM, 40GB HDD, WIN2k3 server.
Moving the printers and fax modems to this machine ~$0
32MB RAM for the Laserjet 1200 ~$40

2. P4-1.5, 512MB RAM, Win2k server
Upgrading this to 2x120GB Seagates (IDE) ~$165
Using onboard RAID controller ~$0

3. XP2500+, 512MB RAM, Linux
512MB PC3200 ~$90
2x WD Raptors 74GB ~$410
Adaptec SATA RAID ~60

Total: $765


Thanks to everyone who replied for your help!! :beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::beer: 1 for each of you!

 

[jose]

Kai920:

Your going to run Linux on the server ??? If so then put all the services on one machine.. See my last post. We have a much slower machine P3-800 & it's doing a good job.

You can drop the PDC for 10pc's. Just use Samba to authenticate, file & print serving. You can also use it at a proxy, email server w/ ClamAV & spamassin & also as an secure ftp server. And use iptable for firewall duties..

I'd get 5 - 36g scsi drives w/ a LSI raid 5 controller w/ a good tape backup. Then your all set. Also put 1 gig of ram in it & leave some empty banks of memory for later expansion.

Out small p3-800 systems is basically doing the same work as your 3 much more powerful (hardware wise) windows systems.

You can save a ton of money not getting the win3k server licenses....

Regards,
Jose

 

[suklee]

Jose,

Thanks for your suggestion, but I'm going to 'take the easy way out' and go with Windows on the SQL server

 

[LeadMagnet]

MS Small Business Server 2003 will do it all nicely on one PC for 10 to 25 users.

 

[suklee]

Ack, I'm so dumb ... turns out my NF7-S had onboard SATA RAID!!

So off to return the Adaptec card....