Do any of you nerds know about electrical wiring?

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drnickriviera

Platinum Member
Jan 30, 2001
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If it were me, i'd pull all that out and trace the wires to clean that mess up, but that is probably beyond your tools and skill.

So let's just wire it all back up the same way
Switch one. Buy a 3 way switch.
The new switch will have one black screw and two brass colored screws. (black is the most common color now, could be different though)
On the old switch is a copper colored screw. That wire goes to the black screw. The other two wires go to the brass screws. Try not to reverse them, the black wire should be opposite of the black screw and white by itself at the bottom. Test the power at the outlet to make sure everything is right. the smaller of the two vertical blades is the hot one. Go between that and the larger vertical blade with your voltmeter. and that and the ground to make sure you get the correct 120v

Switch two. Look for a single pole switch (standard on/off light switch) with a side clamp. Lowes usually sells them. A side clamp allows you to push the wires in from the back instead of using the screws. Once you push the wire in the back you tighten the screw and it pulls a metal plate to clamp the wire. Ask someone in the dept if you can't find it. The reason for this type is that it usually allows you to connect 2 wires to each terminal. This way you don't have to make any pigtails or do anything extra. The one wire on the left goes to one of the terminals. The two wires on the right (one in the back and one on the screw) go to the other terminal. I have no idea why there are two wires there, but ain't broke don't fix it.

switch three. standard 3-way switch. black wire on the left goes to the black screw terminal. Red and white on the right to the brass colored ones. same as before, don't swap them. if for some reason the switches start acting crazy by not working or only 1 switch of the 2 works, then swap the red and white wire.

Do these one at a time. I'd start with #3. kill power to all 3, wire up the last switch, power that one up to make sure it works right, then go to the next one. Don't forget to kill the power again. Oh and to remove the wires from the back of the switches, there should be a little square opening below the wires. you'll need to push something small in there to release the spring. I usually use a nail or small screwdriver. push it in as much as you can and try to wiggle the wire back out. sometimes they are easy, sometimes pita.
 
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ManBearPig

Diamond Member
Sep 5, 2000
9,173
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Wow, thank you so much! You are actually spot on with the screw colors...I just pulled out one of the switches I bought and it does indeed have those colors. :p Neat.

We're actually changing the switch type to a decorator switch, so I hope there's a decorator switch with a side clamp. Don't see why there wouldnt be, though.

Guess it's off to the hardware store to return one of the three way switches and get a one way switch. Your help has been invaluable, thank you!
 
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Kwatt

Golden Member
Jan 3, 2000
1,602
12
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On the wraped ground that is done instead of a proper splice.
I don't like it or do it but I see it alot.

Switch 1 - is a 3 way and wired as a 3 way.
Switch 2 - It looks like 1 of the 3 black wires is the power source, 1 goes to the load, and 1 may be a jumper connected to the top left of switch 1.


If it is replace switch 1 connecting the jumper to the screw of the new 3 way that is on the side by itself. Connect the other 2 wires to the screws on the other side.
In other words just replace the switch wire the wires connected like they are now.:)

Replace switch 2 and I would get a RED (or one for 3 #12 awg wires) wire nut and take the 2 wires connected to the same point of switch 2 splice and a short piece of wire together and connect the short piece under the screw on one side of the switch. That way you will not have to use the push in points on the back.

If there is no jumper from switch 2 to switch 1 then switch 1 is fed from another 3 way. And the 2 black wires connected together on switch 1 are for a feed through (unlikely) or goes to 2 different devices.

All of the above is based on what I can see in the pics and from your post.
And it is a simple configuration if you have seen a few hundred.

Wait till you get a call where there is 8 switch bank with all 3 and 4 ways. And someone has removed all the switches and not marked any of the wires. I made a mortgage payment off of that call.


.
 

ManBearPig

Diamond Member
Sep 5, 2000
9,173
6
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LOL, I can't even imagine that. :eek: I can't even do this and everything is already in place. :oops:

Btw, I almost electrocuted myself today. Good thing I bought the voltmeter yesterday and tested everything to be sure the power was off! Out of curiosity, would that shock have killed me? I know there are a few different factors that influence how bad the shock could be, so I guess it depends.
 

drnickriviera

Platinum Member
Jan 30, 2001
2,462
270
136
Replace switch 2 and I would get a RED (or one for 3 #12 awg wires) wire nut and take the 2 wires connected to the same point of switch 2 splice and a short piece of wire together and connect the short piece under the screw on one side of the switch. That way you will not have to use the push in points on the back.

This is what you'll have to do if you can't get a side clamp switch.
 

iRONic

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2006
8,400
3,713
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LOL, I can't even imagine that. :eek: I can't even do this and everything is already in place. :oops:

Btw, I almost electrocuted myself today. Good thing I bought the voltmeter yesterday and tested everything to be sure the power was off! Out of curiosity, would that shock have killed me? I know there are a few different factors that influence how bad the shock could be, but I'm still curious.
If you were messing around inside that switch box and got bit... prolly not. Inside your service panel... can I have yer stuff?
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,601
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www.slatebrookfarm.com
If you were messing around inside that switch box and got bit... prolly not. Inside your service panel... can I have yer stuff?

Meh, it's the same bite in both places - voltage is the same. (Well, roughly the same. There might be a volt or two difference due to wire resistance in the circuit. But: wearing rubber soled sneakers: ouch. Wearing sneakers or shoes with black soles (they're more conductive) standing on the concrete basement floor - ouch, shake hand saying "ewwwwwh ewwwwh". Standing barefoot in a puddle of water on a concrete basement floor: can I havs your stuff?

Working in the main panel (with power on): one hand always in the pocket. And, if possible, standing on a piece of foam insulation board (not the foil covered stuff either.)
 

Kwatt

Golden Member
Jan 3, 2000
1,602
12
81
LOL, I can't even imagine that. :eek: I can't even do this and everything is already in place. :oops:

Btw, I almost electrocuted myself today. Good thing I bought the voltmeter yesterday and tested everything to be sure the power was off! Out of curiosity, would that shock have killed me? I know there are a few different factors that influence how bad the shock could be, so I guess it depends.


Hard to predict. Have read that the shock is most dangerous at a certian point in the heart beat. Don't know if it true. Don't really care if it true. Never enjoyed any of them. :)

.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,746
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www.anyf.ca
Meh, it's the same bite in both places - voltage is the same. (Well, roughly the same. There might be a volt or two difference due to wire resistance in the circuit. But: wearing rubber soled sneakers: ouch. Wearing sneakers or shoes with black soles (they're more conductive) standing on the concrete basement floor - ouch, shake hand saying "ewwwwwh ewwwwh". Standing barefoot in a puddle of water on a concrete basement floor: can I havs your stuff?

Working in the main panel (with power on): one hand always in the pocket. And, if possible, standing on a piece of foam insulation board (not the foil covered stuff either.)

Yeah while it's the amps that kill, the voltage plays a certain role and so does the situation (where you get hit, and what you are standing on etc) as they all play a role in determining the resistance, which in the end determines the current (ohm's law). If you get a shock off an outlet, that same shock is not going to do any more harm at the service panel as it's still going to draw the same current even if more current may be available. At the panel you do have access to get a nice 240 volt shock though, so that can double the current that gets drawn. You'd have to touch both hots though, if you touch just one chances are you're going to be getting 120. Definitely a good idea to work with one hand around anything electrical.

Though to be extra safe it's best to just turn the power off, it's easy to slip and hit something you don't want to. I'd be more worried about arc flash than a shock though. Even at 15 amps a dead short will give you a decent show.

Speaking of shocks, I've been hit a few times with ring voltage while working on the frame at work. Typical phone line is -54 volts DC (48 nominal) but when a call comes in, the ring voltage is around 170volts AC, at a low frequency. That can sting when reaching for a wire and you have your face smashed against one of the terminal blocks. :biggrin: I also have a bad habit of putting my finger on the terminals while counting to find the place I need to connect to.
 
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Squisher

Lifer
Aug 17, 2000
21,204
66
91
On the wraped ground that is done instead of a proper splice.
I don't like it or do it but I see it alot.

NEC asks for a mechanical connection on grounds. Many municipalities will allow wire nuts, but many will require the ferrule connectors. I've seen some just twist the bare grounds together numerous times without a wire nut.

Because I had to use end sleeve connectors (ferrule) where I used to live I've always used them.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
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Here in Canada you can also get away with just grounding the box. The switch/outlet will then be grounded when screwed in as it's in contact with the box. For the plastic boxes used outside you still need to use the ground screw obviously.
 

sourn

Senior member
Dec 26, 2012
577
1
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Ok here is what do you. Do two at a time.

Take the black wire which is just another ground (hence black), and while holding the white wire (neutral) and just insert the wires in a new switch at the same time. Easy peasy won't hurt a bit. Just don't forget to record and post it so we can watch it to make sure you did it right.

O and I forgot don't listen to these idiots there is no reason to kill the main breaker or any breaker for that matter.
 

imagoon

Diamond Member
Feb 19, 2003
5,199
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Most people I've ever talked to with experience avoid those backwiring things - they suck. There's just a thin piece of metal making contact. A little corrosion in there & they stop working - which may be exactly what your problem is. If possible, connect the wires to the screws on the side. The backwiring is for lazy electricians getting a job quickly, and who know it'll probably lead to more work for them 15 years down the road.

Not completely true any more. I have plenty of "backwire" outlets and switches that use the screw terminal to tighten them. Basically the screw backplate floats in the outlet and is bent for 14/12 gauge wire. Insert wire an tightening the screw pulls the plate in tight to lock down the wire.

http://www.handymanhowto.com/2011/01/17/electrical-outlets-side-wire-versus-back-wire/

"Quick wire, push in, friction style" = bad style you mentioned. "Back Clamp" or simply "clamp" = better connection than the side screws can give more often than not. Back clamps are also quite often barbed to prevent the wire from sliding out.
 

ManBearPig

Diamond Member
Sep 5, 2000
9,173
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The electrical guy at the hardware store said the first can be wired as a single pole, and then the second and third should be 3 ways. Ahhhh...

New switches!
 
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ManBearPig

Diamond Member
Sep 5, 2000
9,173
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That is not what is there now...

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Heh, rest assured, I will take your guys' advice! :p No houses burning down for me. Just figured it was interesting that he went in a different direction. Weird. Oh yeah, luckily it is a side clamp type connection (a little plate comes out and then you put the wires in there and screw it tightly). Glad I didn't have to get a connector and do what you said kwatt, that would result in many more hours of questions and trial and error on my part lol. :awe:
 
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ManBearPig

Diamond Member
Sep 5, 2000
9,173
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Oh yeah...i was kind of disappointed that the old switches were made in the USA and the new ones are made in China. :(
 

Kwatt

Golden Member
Jan 3, 2000
1,602
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81
I have never hooked up a switch that look just like those on the back.

Just going on the screw colors it appears the wire connected to the side by itself on the old switch goes to the black screw.
Maybe someone who has seen those before will post to confirm or correct that.

And yes those type connections are the better ones. You don't have to wrap the wire around the screw and can connect two wires. You will have to trim off excess bare wire. No insulation should be in the clamp part and very little uninsulated wire showing. There may be a strip guide on the switch I can't see it in the pics though.

.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
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Oh yeah...i was kind of disappointed that the old switches were made in the USA and the new ones are made in China. :(

That's funny, I just checked a few spare electrical items (switch and outlet) that I bought recently and it's made in USA. :biggrin: Odd that in the USA they'd be selling made in China stuff when in Canada it's made in USA lol. Might depend on the store though, I can't remember where I bought these. I think it was actually walmart, which is odd. I normally don't shop there for electrical stuff but they do have it.
 

ManBearPig

Diamond Member
Sep 5, 2000
9,173
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OMFG JUST DID SWITCH #3 (drnick suggested to do that one first) AND IT WORKS!!! The other switch in the hallway works correctly with it too! Ya!!
 

ManBearPig

Diamond Member
Sep 5, 2000
9,173
6
81
Switch one. Buy a 3 way switch.
The new switch will have one black screw and two brass colored screws. (black is the most common color now, could be different though)
On the old switch is a copper colored screw. That wire goes to the black screw. The other two wires go to the brass screws. Try not to reverse them, the black wire should be opposite of the black screw and white by itself at the bottom. Test the power at the outlet to make sure everything is right. the smaller of the two vertical blades is the hot one. Go between that and the larger vertical blade with your voltmeter. and that and the ground to make sure you get the correct 120v

There's actually nothing attached to the copper screw. :/ You said screw and then wire, so I think you might have gotten mixed up or something? Do you mean the white wire?
 

wirednuts

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2007
7,121
4
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as an electrician that has seen all of the potential issues causing major problems, this thread scares me.
 

ManBearPig

Diamond Member
Sep 5, 2000
9,173
6
81
So I installed the first switch and it's making the fuse blow. Now I have to figure out how to re-wire it. Fuck.