Divided court rejects school diversity plans

[babylon5]

Did most your classmates do as good as you do went to college? Did you experience racism there in inner city school? I am asking because most people here probably never went to one.

About Asians--AA believers when quoted in news, they without exception name black and hispanics as needed AA, not Asians or Middle Easterners.

Medical schools probably admit "enough" Asians, so they want to balance out by admitting Blacks, and it's harder for Asians get into medical school even if they have good scores. I think that is what dmens mean.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What I find interesting is to compare the notion of a nation of laws, the sanctity of the law, the notion of the pursuit of justice, and the constant 5-4 decisions.

There is no justice, there is no law, there is only 5 assholes' opinion.</end quote></div>

I thought I was the only asshole? 😕

I was told, perhaps on questionable authority, you have five. 😉

 

[Termagant]

Why exactly do we need racial diversity? It is disgusting that children have to be subjected to poor inner city schools which happen to have more minorities.

This in reality was economic diversity busing. It just so happens that sub-cultural problems make it a racial problem. Education failures all start at the home life and middle class or wealthy children, black, white, or Muslim, shouldn't have to suffer because of the failures of others.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: dmens
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: senseamp
This thread is not about AA anyways, it's about desegregation.
Secondly, I am not seeing these supposed ill effects on Asians. Vast majority of the people I work with are Asian.
</end quote></div>

No, this thread is about the use of race as a factor in educational policy. Affirmative action is just that.

Your argument is completely retarded. You don't see ill effects simply because you don't look. Consider the 200-400 SAT score penalty on asian applicants to top tier colleges. That is undeniable. Notice the leap in asian members in the UC schools after the abolition of racial quotas, and the high number of Asians in race-blind institutions such as Stuyvesant HS. The policies you support deny many asians the chance at a higher quality education.

The fact that you work with a lot of asians is not only irrelevant, it is also a stupid argument. personal anecdotes are meaningless in this context.

Asians being successful in this country is not anecdotal. It is a fact. As is low college attendance rate in the African American community. So excuse me if I am not very concerned with fixing something that isn't a problem to begin with, and am concerned with fixing something that is a problem. Now you may think there should be no preference based on race, but I disagree. I think African American communities are in an acute need of positive role models, and we need to achieve a certain level of college education and professionals in that community so that kids can look up to more than just thugs, rappers, an athletes growing up. If that means some Asian kid will have to go to a lesser school, too bad, so sad. Like I said, buck up.

 

[babylon5]

Why is it okay to punish Asians who study hard? Is some minority race okay to discriminate openly, but others aren't?

Should we have diversity in atheltes too? Should NBA represent America by rejecting qualified Black players, and make sure Asians, Whites, HIspanics, Middle Eastern Basketball Players be on the team just because of their race? Should Football League do the same? Where are the Asians and Middle Eastern and Hispancis in NFL?

 

[dmens]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Asians being successful in this country is not anecdotal. It is a fact. As is low college attendance rate in the African American community. So excuse me if I am not very concerned with fixing something that isn't a problem to begin with, and am concerned with fixing something that is a problem. Now you may think there should be no preference based on race, but I disagree. I think African American communities are in an acute need of positive role models, and we need to achieve a certain level of college education and professionals in that community so that kids can look up to more than just thugs, rappers, an athletes growing up. If that means some Asian kid will have to go to a lesser school, too bad, so sad. Like I said, buck up.

it's funny that you tell asians to "buck up", yet you don't feel blacks to do the same. lesser expectations? i'd attribute that to racism.

sounds like you are telling the whole asian community to buck up and suck it so white leftists can proceed with schemes with no demonstrated benefits because there are "enough" asians in colleges already? that sounds... racist! :Q

what makes you think real black role models can't succeed on their own and they need the compassionate leftists' help to get the education they deserve? if they're role model material, they don't need your help to succeed. yet more elitist racism, thinking the poor minorities need the enlightened whites to pull them up.

moreover, academic success is treated with contempt in some black communities as "acting white". good luck changing that with racial quotas. there's plenty of black role models in American society today, and i'd bet the vast majority of them didn't need racial quotas to get where they are now.

anyways, on behalf of the asian community, go fuck yourself. 😀

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: babylon5
Why is it okay to punish Asians who study hard? Is some minority race okay to discriminate openly, but others aren't?

You make it sound like college admission is a right, and that Asians are somehow being punished if an African American is chosen instead. That is not the case. State colleges are institutions that provide education for the benefit of society as a whole, and they can target admission in a way that will provide the most benefit for society, and that may not always be the same as picking the person with the highest SAT scores.

Should we have diversity in atheltes too? Should NBA represent America by rejecting qualified Black players, and make sure Asians, Whites, HIspanics, Middle Eastern Basketball Players be on the team just because of their race? Should Football League do the same? Where are the Asians and Middle Eastern and Hispancis in NFL?

Those are private companies, they can do whatever they want to.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: dmens
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: senseamp
This thread is not about AA anyways, it's about desegregation.
Secondly, I am not seeing these supposed ill effects on Asians. Vast majority of the people I work with are Asian.
</end quote></div>

No, this thread is about the use of race as a factor in educational policy. Affirmative action is just that.

Your argument is completely retarded. You don't see ill effects simply because you don't look. Consider the 200-400 SAT score penalty on asian applicants to top tier colleges. That is undeniable. Notice the leap in asian members in the UC schools after the abolition of racial quotas, and the high number of Asians in race-blind institutions such as Stuyvesant HS. The policies you support deny many asians the chance at a higher quality education.

The fact that you work with a lot of asians is not only irrelevant, it is also a stupid argument. personal anecdotes are meaningless in this context.</end quote></div>

Asians being successful in this country is not anecdotal. It is a fact. As is low college attendance rate in the African American community. So excuse me if I am not very concerned with fixing something that isn't a problem to begin with, and am concerned with fixing something that is a problem. Now you may think there should be no preference based on race, but I disagree. I think African American communities are in an acute need of positive role models, and we need to achieve a certain level of college education and professionals in that community so that kids can look up to more than just thugs, rappers, an athletes growing up. If that means some Asian kid will have to go to a lesser school, too bad, so sad. Like I said, buck up.

I am a naive white boy who went to catholic school, grew up and still lives in the suburbs and sends his daughter to private school but is it really that bad??? Are we seriously to the point that we are sacrificing some for the benefits of others?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Shivetya
do not burden children with the sins of the parents.

We are well past the days when school systems and local governments can discriminate without word getting out. Keeping these archaic solutions in place only hurt the children they claim to help

Exactly!! Very well worded!!

 

[babylon5]

Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: babylon5
Why is it okay to punish Asians who study hard? Is some minority race okay to discriminate openly, but others aren't?
</end quote></div>
You make it sound like college admission is a right, and that Asians are somehow being punished if an African American is chosen instead. That is not the case. State colleges are institutions that provide education for the benefit of society as a whole, and they can target admission in a way that will provide the most benefit for society, and that may not always be the same as picking the person with the highest SAT scores.

I notice you keep avoiding my questions to you, why?

"Did most your classmates do as good as you do went to college? Did you experience racism there in inner city school? I am asking because most people here probably never went to one."

And you also ignore demens response to you:

"moreover, academic success is treated with contempt in some black communities as "acting white". good luck changing that with racial quotas. there's plenty of black role models in American society today, and i'd bet the vast majority of them didn't need racial quotas to get where they are now."

Did you see black students get punished by others for study hard while you attend inner city school? Or you are just going to ignore questions about your experience?


Who decided what is benefit of society as a whole? You? Why is admitting lower scores student based on race a benefit to society?






<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>
Should we have diversity in atheltes too? Should NBA represent America by rejecting qualified Black players, and make sure Asians, Whites, HIspanics, Middle Eastern Basketball Players be on the team just because of their race? Should Football League do the same? Where are the Asians and Middle Eastern and Hispancis in NFL?
</end quote></div>
Those are private companies, they can do whatever they want to.

Can private companies not hire women? Black women, white women? Private companies should be able to reject women because they are female, is that really what you believe? And you think that is a benefit to society as a whole too?

 

[babylon5]

senseamp:

I notice you keep avoiding my questions to you, why?

"Did most your classmates do as good as you do went to college? Did you experience racism there in inner city school? I am asking because most people here probably never went to one."

And you also ignore demens response to you:

"moreover, academic success is treated with contempt in some black communities as "acting white". good luck changing that with racial quotas. there's plenty of black role models in American society today, and i'd bet the vast majority of them didn't need racial quotas to get where they are now."

Did you see black students get punished by others for study hard while you attend inner city school? Or you are just going to ignore questions about your experience?


Who decided what is benefit of society as a whole? You? Why is admitting lower scores student based on race a benefit to society?

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: babylon5
senseamp:

I notice you keep avoiding my questions to you, why?

"Did most your classmates do as good as you do went to college? Did you experience racism there in inner city school? I am asking because most people here probably never went to one."

Not sure what relevance it has, since this thread isn't about me, but in case you are wondering, no I didn't experience racism. Most of my classmates didn't do as good as me.

And you also ignore demens response to you:

"moreover, academic success is treated with contempt in some black communities as "acting white". good luck changing that with racial quotas. there's plenty of black role models in American society today, and i'd bet the vast majority of them didn't need racial quotas to get where they are now."

You are speculating. And secondly, the more the better, it is still more an exception than a rule. There are still a lot more negative influences in that community than positive. The critical mass has not been reached. Now why would going to college be considered "acting white" if there are enough black educational role models?

Did you see black students get punished by others for study hard while you attend inner city school? Or you are just going to ignore questions about your experience?

No I didn't see black students punished. This is not about me, that's why I didn't bother responding. How about you tell us your life story? Were you negatively impacted by AA? Did some black kids beat you up?

Who decided what is benefit of society as a whole? You? Why is admitting lower scores student based on race a benefit to society?

Who decided that automatically admitting students based on scores is a benefit to society as a whole? Same admission office that can also decide that it's beneficial to consider other factors, like race and background.

 

[Rainsford]

I actually am against busing, and support this decision...although I suspect it's for a very different reason than my conservative peers. FORCED de-segregation is no more helpful than forced segregation, and for the same reason...you can't make these things work. Laws that prohibit people from doing something because of race should be totally abolished, but you can't actually force white people and black people (or anyone other groups) to live and work together. In fact, trying to do so will do quite the opposite...people tend to resent being forced to do things, and that dislike will (wrongly) transfer to the people who probably have just as little desire to be pushed around as you do.

But there is another reason, and this is where I think I diverge from our resident righties, in that it doesn't really help the minorities in the poorer/crummier schools. Sure, it might help the handful of them who get bussed to a better school in the burbs, but it does no good for the rest of the folks still stuck in underfunded schools. In fact, it's even worse for them, since everyone wrongly assumes that busing is the answer. The real solution is to try and improve the bad schools, not just try and make sure a representative part of each racial group gets to attend the good schools. I know that people love to blame poorer families and say that their kids are no good no matter how good the school is, but that's BS. Go to an inner city school and compare it to one in the suburbs, tell me the ONLY thing different is the students themselves. Of course families have something to do with it, but this isn't one of those times when you can justify being a cheap bastard...if you don't want to pay for better schools in the inner city, just say so.

 

[babylon5]

I asked you 'personal' questions because in earlier thread, you cited your life experience going to inner city school to support your ideas.

senseamp:
"WRONG. I went to an inner city school, which was close to 100% minority. From there I went to get two engineering degrees from two of the top 10 universities in the country. So all these whiners complaining their kids have to take a bus to an inner city school, suck it up."

I wouldnt' have asked you if you didn't use your experience to debate. Most of us never attend inner city school, and if you argue with different views, I think you have
insight that we dont' have. That is why I ask. I am not asking you because I think it will make people think your position is weak.

No, I never personally affected by AA, or black kids beat me up, because I never attend inner city school.

I know white, asian, and black when I go to school. My black friend is middle class black, he got admitted to UCLA and graduated. I also know Asians who seem have harder time getting admit because they are Asians, and medical school dont' admit them (these Asians have high SAT, almost 1600 at that time). Many colleges admit they use race to admit more Blacks and Hispanics.

I make the comparison with NFL and NBA because they affect a lot of kids in America. If America should be represented by all races, such as school population, NFL/NBA should upheld this idea and not just admit someone who is qualified, if race is that important for benefit to our society. There have been numerous study done about minority feel isolated because what they see on TV don't reflect their own race, whether it's blacks, asians, middle easterners. Wouldn't you say popular entertainment like sports should help kids feel good about themeleves with their own role models? I am sure black kids gain a lot of confidence seeing Bryant out there as public face. Why cant' we do the same for MIddle East or Asian kids?

I just see this as selective racism in our society. If we want to help struggling groups of people, it should be based on class, not their race. There are poor asians/whites out there who can use a lift, not just blacks.






EDIT: forum software crashed on me, have to start over

 

[theeedude]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: babylon5
I asked you 'personal' questions because in earlier thread, you cited your life experience going to inner city school to support your ideas.

senseamp:
"WRONG. I went to an inner city school, which was close to 100% minority. From there I went to get two engineering degrees from two of the top 10 universities in the country. So all these whiners complaining their kids have to take a bus to an inner city school, suck it up."

I wouldnt' have asked you if you didn't use your experience to debate. Most of us never attend inner city school, and if you argue with different views, I think you have
insight that we dont' have. That is why I ask. I am not asking you because I think it will make people think your position is weak.

No, I never personally affected by AA, or black kids beat me up, because I never attend inner city school.

I know white, asian, and black when I go to school. My black friend is middle class black, he got admitted to UCLA and graduated. I also know Asians who seem have harder time getting admit because they are Asians, and medical school dont' admit them (these Asians have high SAT, almost 1600 at that time). Many colleges admit they use race to admit more Blacks and Hispanics.

I make the comparison with NFL and NBA because they affect a lot of kids in America. If America should be represented by all races, such as school population, NFL/NBA should upheld this idea and not just admit someone who is qualified, if race is that important for benefit to our society. There have been numerous study done about minority feel isolated because what they see on TV don't reflect their own race, whether it's blacks, asians, middle easterners. Wouldn't you say popular entertainment like sports should help kids feel good about themeleves with their own role models? I am sure black kids gain a lot of confidence seeing Bryant out there as public face. Why cant' we do the same for MIddle East or Asian kids?

I just see this as selective racism in our society. If we want to help struggling groups of people, it should be based on class, not their race. There are poor asians/whites out there who can use a lift, not just blacks.


EDIT: forum software crashed on me, have to start over</end quote></div>


I only brought it up because the other posters were making assumptions about me that I was some middle class suburban kid. To all my Asian friends here who maybe aren't as successful in life as they hoped they would be and are looking for someone to blame, sorry to disappoint you, you'll just need to get yourself a mirror. Having gone to the top schools in the country that you may have gotten rejected from, I can tell you that chances that it's because a minority took your spot because of Affirmative Action are pretty much zero, zilch, nada.

 

[JD50]

Well senseamp, its good to know that you support racism against everyone but blacks.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: JD50
Well senseamp, its good to know that you support racism against everyone but blacks.

:roll: How about you speak for yourself and not put words in my mouth?

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JD50
Well senseamp, its good to know that you support racism against everyone but blacks. </end quote></div>

:roll: How about you speak for yourself and not put words in my mouth?

No need to put words in your mouth, you've made your position quite clear.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: JD50
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JD50
Well senseamp, its good to know that you support racism against everyone but blacks. </end quote></div>

:roll: How about you speak for yourself and not put words in my mouth?</end quote></div>

No need to put words in your mouth, you've made your position quite clear.

I sure did, no need for your "recap."

 

[JD50]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JD50
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JD50
Well senseamp, its good to know that you support racism against everyone but blacks. </end quote></div>

:roll: How about you speak for yourself and not put words in my mouth?</end quote></div>

No need to put words in your mouth, you've made your position quite clear.</end quote></div>

I sure did, no need for your "recap."</end quote></div>


Luckily, I don't need your approval to post here, so unless you're a mod, shove it.

Edit - BTW, I don't support racism of any kind, whether it be you, or the KKK, racism is racism, none of it is good.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: JD50
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JD50
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JD50
Well senseamp, its good to know that you support racism against everyone but blacks. </end quote></div>

:roll: How about you speak for yourself and not put words in my mouth?</end quote></div>

No need to put words in your mouth, you've made your position quite clear.</end quote></div>

I sure did, no need for your "recap."</end quote></div>


Luckily, I don't need your approval to post here, so unless you're a mod, shove it.

Edit - BTW, I don't support racism of any kind, whether it be you, or the KKK, racism is racism, none of it is good.

I am sure you know a lot more than me about KKK.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JD50
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JD50
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JD50
Well senseamp, its good to know that you support racism against everyone but blacks. </end quote></div>

:roll: How about you speak for yourself and not put words in my mouth?</end quote></div>

No need to put words in your mouth, you've made your position quite clear.</end quote></div>

I sure did, no need for your "recap."</end quote></div>


Luckily, I don't need your approval to post here, so unless you're a mod, shove it.

Edit - BTW, I don't support racism of any kind, whether it be you, or the KKK, racism is racism, none of it is good.</end quote></div>

I am sure you know a lot more than me about KKK.

Maybe, but you have a lot more in common with the KKK then I do.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: JD50
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JD50
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JD50
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JD50
Well senseamp, its good to know that you support racism against everyone but blacks. </end quote></div>

:roll: How about you speak for yourself and not put words in my mouth?</end quote></div>

No need to put words in your mouth, you've made your position quite clear.</end quote></div>

I sure did, no need for your "recap."</end quote></div>


Luckily, I don't need your approval to post here, so unless you're a mod, shove it.

Edit - BTW, I don't support racism of any kind, whether it be you, or the KKK, racism is racism, none of it is good.</end quote></div>

I am sure you know a lot more than me about KKK.</end quote></div>


Maybe, but you have a lot more in common with the KKK then I do.

I highly doubt it, considering that I am not in it.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JD50
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JD50
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JD50
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JD50
Well senseamp, its good to know that you support racism against everyone but blacks. </end quote></div>

:roll: How about you speak for yourself and not put words in my mouth?</end quote></div>

No need to put words in your mouth, you've made your position quite clear.</end quote></div>

I sure did, no need for your "recap."</end quote></div>


Luckily, I don't need your approval to post here, so unless you're a mod, shove it.

Edit - BTW, I don't support racism of any kind, whether it be you, or the KKK, racism is racism, none of it is good.</end quote></div>

I am sure you know a lot more than me about KKK.</end quote></div>


Maybe, but you have a lot more in common with the KKK then I do.
</end quote></div>

I highly doubt it, considering that I am not in it.

Of course not, they support whites being favored over every other race, you support blacks being favored over every other race, they would never accept you. Look, I'm not knocking your for being a racist, I've known black racists and I've known white racists, most of them were decent people besides their bigotry, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Some people think that you should judge people by the color of their skin (you) and some people think that skin color doesn't matter (me). As wrong as you might be, its a free country and you can believe what you want to believe. I don't think that people should be treated differently based solely on the color of their skin, you do. We'll just have to agree to disagree here, this petty one liner name calling makes us both look stupid.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: JD50
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JD50
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JD50
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JD50
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: senseamp
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JD50
Well senseamp, its good to know that you support racism against everyone but blacks. </end quote></div>

:roll: How about you speak for yourself and not put words in my mouth?</end quote></div>

No need to put words in your mouth, you've made your position quite clear.</end quote></div>

I sure did, no need for your "recap."</end quote></div>


Luckily, I don't need your approval to post here, so unless you're a mod, shove it.

Edit - BTW, I don't support racism of any kind, whether it be you, or the KKK, racism is racism, none of it is good.</end quote></div>

I am sure you know a lot more than me about KKK.</end quote></div>


Maybe, but you have a lot more in common with the KKK then I do.
</end quote></div>

I highly doubt it, considering that I am not in it.</end quote></div>

Of course not, they support whites being favored over every other race, you support blacks being favored over every other race, they would never accept you. Look, I'm not knocking your for being a racist, I've known black racists and I've known white racists, most of them were decent people besides their bigotry, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Some people think that you should judge people by the color of their skin (you) and some people think that skin color doesn't matter (me). As wrong as you might be, its a free country and you can believe what you want to believe. I don't think that people should be treated differently based solely on the color of their skin, you do. We'll just have to agree to disagree here, this petty one liner name calling makes us both look stupid.

KKK also complains about affirmative action and how blacks are taking opportunities from whites? Sound familiar?