Discussion Thread Re: 8/3 No Insults Rule Amendment

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Which is worse?

  • Intellectual Dishonesty

  • Personal Insults


Results are only viewable after voting.
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lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
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Is that your way of saying he does not have to support his statement, which is obviously a lie (and proven such by him being unable to show any support)? The purposeful spreading of misinformation (which is what his lie is) is against forum rules. Do you support the violation of forum rules?

Is that what you have fallen to, Jedi?

You dont support your statements and appear to get satisfaction from the amount of time you can suck from forums users. I agree with nearly every comment and example given regarding your behavior on the forums.

I think the simple act of banning your from the forums would in itself make this a better place to visit and post.

If the sum of a persons forum posting could be gaged by the amount of meaningful interactions with members could be established, its my opinion you would have a sum total of zero.

PerKnose and the other posters are spot on, why your
continually allowed to add no value I dont know.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,787
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lotus503: You dont support your statements and appear to get satisfaction from the amount of time you can suck from forums users. I agree with nearly every comment and example given regarding your behavior on the forums.

M: How is that a violation of the forum rules, not to support a statement? You didn't support yours but simply agreed with the opinion of others as if opinion numbers were some indication of truth, no? If somebody takes the time to argue against everything he sees differently here, he or she will naturally draw a lot of attention. The fact that one draws fire from others surely doesn't tell us if they are right or wrong, does it?

l: I think the simple act of banning your from the forums would in itself make this a better place to visit and post.

M: It would, perhaps, for you, but what about other folk who like his opinions. Is this going to be a forum where the bias of this or that person determines who can post? Attempts were made to quantify the value of people's post on a pyramid thingi that IDC posted, but it doesn't work. People are quite happy to post at the imbecile level. They are not interested in truth but in voicing negative emotions.

l; If the sum of a persons forum posting could be gaged by the amount of meaningful interactions with members could be established, its my opinion you would have a sum total of zero.

M: Doubtless a lot of people agree. That, however, is as you frankly stated, your opinion and does not rise to the level of objectivity. It can't be proved.

PerKnose and the other posters are spot on, why your
continually allowed to add no value I dont know.

M: I think it's because the forum was created along liberal lines with the liberal assumption that with great freedom comes great responsibility, that reason prevails over madness, that objectivity will triumph over ignorant opinion, etc. But it turns out that for certain minds politics is a religion of blind faith and the opposition are heretics who should be burned at the stake. This creates an atmosphere where a lot seems to be at stake, if you know what I mean, both for those who want to drive them and those who don't fancy themselves being burned.

This is why I have concluded that this forum as structured now is doomed to simply stoke fanaticism, because it does not accord with the wisdom of the ages, that politeness and reasonableness must be enforced via structure, namely that courtesy and gentlemanliness are required as well as the acknowledgment that what one thinks is ones opinion and that it should always be presented with logical reasons as to why you hold it. The reasons don't have to be objectively accurate, that's what we can debate, but something must be given to the debate rather that how stupid the other person is.

In a madhouse, the voices of reason are always drowned out.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
The definition of a troll, needs to be defined better.

A troll exists only to see his shit spread.

Most of Anandtech, don't exist to see their shit spread.

-John
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
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After several months of this "personal attacks allowed" policy, I think it rather self-evident that it is a failure. The quality of discourse in P&N has plummetted, and participation by many regulars has declined.

I'd like to request a new poll to get rid of this policy, or again, request the creation of a subforum where only reasonable debate is allowed (no personal attacks, claims requiring backing evidence and arguments, and no thread derailing).
 
Dec 10, 2005
28,969
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After several months of this "personal attacks allowed" policy, I think it rather self-evident that it is a failure. The quality of discourse in P&N has plummetted, and participation by many regulars has declined.

I'd like to request a new poll to get rid of this policy, or again, request the creation of a subforum where only reasonable debate is allowed (no personal attacks, claims requiring backing evidence and arguments, and no thread derailing).

The quality of discourse has fallen because of the rampant trolling. Cut down on that crap and it *may* improve.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
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It's all related. The forum is basically no longer moderated, nearly every thread turns into shouting matches of epithets, and it's hard to separate the flamebaiting from the flaming.

It needs to be cleaned up, or failing that, please create a place for the rational to debate in peace.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
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On this CK and I agree. If we restore a rule against insults and then enforce it equally to all, most of the problems will go away.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,420
33,098
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After several months of this "personal attacks allowed" policy, I think it rather self-evident that it is a failure. The quality of discourse in P&N has plummetted, and participation by many regulars has declined.

I'd like to request a new poll to get rid of this policy, or again, request the creation of a subforum where only reasonable debate is allowed (no personal attacks, claims requiring backing evidence and arguments, and no thread derailing).
That is a load of horseshit. The quality of discourse in P&N has always been shit. To claim that it has plummeted is nothing more than your opinion.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
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To claim that it has plummeted is nothing more than your opinion.

Well, of course it's my opinion. What else could it possibly be? :)

It's the opinion of quite a few other people as well, though.

You must have some really delicate feelings if anything in that blatant troll thread offended you.

It's not about being "offended" -- I don't offend easily. It's simpy about signal-to-noise ratio, which in my opinion has gotten ridiculously low of late.

If you like the way P&N is now, I respect your differing view. I'd just like to see a place where P&N can be discussed in the same way, and with the same general rules, as the technical subjects. I don't see why that should be that difficult to accomplish.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,839
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Yeah, it's an opinion. But not one unique to CK ... As bad as this place was, it's actually gone noticeably downhill.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,420
33,098
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Well, of course it's my opinion. What else could it possibly be? :)

It's the opinion of quite a few other people as well, though.



It's not about being "offended" -- I don't offend easily. It's simpy about signal-to-noise ratio, which in my opinion has gotten ridiculously low of late.

If you like the way P&N is now, I respect your differing view. I'd just like to see a place where P&N can be discussed in the same way, and with the same general rules, as the technical subjects. I don't see why that should be that difficult to accomplish.
Okay, then can you tell me what signal can be found in that thread once you remove the noise? To me, there isn't much signal at all. That includes the OP which doesn't have any personal insults at all. So banning personal insults doesn't fix the problem IMO.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
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The quality of discourse has fallen because of the rampant trolling. Cut down on that crap and it *may* improve.

As far as problems go:

Blatant trolls > insults
These. Insults are a symptom, not a significant cause. Before we consider adding more rules, how about we try enforcing the rules that were already adopted:
No thread-crapping, thread-derailment, off-topic posting, trolling, the intentional posting of logical fallacies or misinformation.

No excessively vitriolic insults.
If these rules are currently enforced at all, it is done infrequently and mostly silently. It seems one has to blow way, way past the line to be vacationed. Even then, even the most flagrant violators are only given short time-outs before returning to continue their constant disruption.

I fully understand the Anandtech relies on volunteer moderators with finite time and likely very little enthusiasm for wading into this tar pit. I would expect it is far more satisfying to moderate technical forums where facts are more clearly defined and emotions are (mostly) not so high. The result is limited moderator resources for policing P&N. Given this, adding yet another rule just adds to the overload, especially if members are still encouraged to cry to daddy every time they see something they dislike.

I also understand Anandtech (and perhaps Anand personally) feels obligated to be totally fair, and is bending over backwards to be sure there is no chance of penalizing someone due to ideology. While that's a lofty ideal, frankly, I don't think it works. Not when we have such limited moderator resources and still expect P&N to have useful signal levels. Under those conditions, I've concluded the only solution is quickly and decisively bouncing those who make it obvious their primary intent is disruption, or even those who are simply too emotional or immature to manage their behavior. Maybe try a Three Strikes policy, where the misfits are given two chances to clean up their act; after that they're gone for good.

Anyway, my $0.02.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Yeah, it's an opinion. But not one unique to CK ... As bad as this place was, it's actually gone noticeably downhill.
I agree. From my perspective, this appears to be partly due to it being near the election, and even more due to what appears to be almost no moderation. Much of the blatant trolling and derailing that's ignored today would have resulted in quick vacations a year or two ago. Embedded images also aggravates this, encouraging new forms of trolling and general disruption.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
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Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
Okay, then can you tell me what signal can be found in that thread once you remove the noise? To me, there isn't much signal at all. That includes the OP which doesn't have any personal insults at all. So banning personal insults doesn't fix the problem IMO.

Even if I don't agree with the OP, and don't think it would have been the most substantive of discussions regardless, people could have chosen either to discuss the issue raised or simply go to the next thread. Instead, within a handful of posts the insults started, and that was that.

IMO people use the term "trolling" far too often around here. Posting something you don't like or don't want to talk about isn't inherently "trolling". If you don't like the thread, move on to the next one. Simple.
 
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monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
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Yeah, it's an opinion. But not one unique to CK ... As bad as this place was, it's actually gone noticeably downhill.

After the first poll this forum did get better, then the rules were changed and a new poll was held and in my opinion selective enforcement of the rules and this forum has gotten worse.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,449
0
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Have the forum moderators considered simply perma-banning the most blatant trolls? Is there some kind of traffic that they are bringing to the site that would be a monetary loss? I'm a bit unclear why the moderators would want to deal with this problem for so long. I understand that getting rid of all trolling, insulting, etc would be a fool's errand but simply removing the people that clearly stick out like sore thumbs is a no-brainer to me. IP ban them temporarily if you aren't quite sure of the result and see for yourself how things go. Your time must be worth more than dealing with this for so long.
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
8,444
1
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Have the forum moderators considered simply perma-banning the most blatant trolls? Is there some kind of traffic that they are bringing to the site that would be a monetary loss? I'm a bit unclear why the moderators would want to deal with this problem for so long. I understand that getting rid of all trolling, insulting, etc would be a fool's errand but simply removing the people that clearly stick out like sore thumbs is a no-brainer to me. IP ban them temporarily if you aren't quite sure of the result and see for yourself how things go. Your time must be worth more than dealing with this for so long.

My bet would be that my list of the 20 worst trolls in this forum would be markedly different then your list of the 20 worst trolls.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,449
0
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I can't even make a list of the 20 worst. I wasn't suggesting that at all. However the top 3 - that we might agree on. If the mods were to compare their list of the top 3 and they matched you'd have a winner.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
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There's no need to make any "hit lists". Put in place a rational, objective set of conduct rules, police them fairly, and those who routinely violate them will be weeded out in time.

The problem is that right now virtually no moderation is taking place at all, and that started when the rule against personal attacks was suspended.
 
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