This has been discussed so frequently, I could fill a page with just a few of my replies:
God, so many people equate discipline with punishment! To make a long story short, it's a matter of consequences. You make a choice, you deal with the consequences. Same with kids. Obviously, some people make spanking a consequence, but that's pretty barbaric. If you start kids out right, the consequences will be rational and so will their choices.
Study about
Maria Montessori and what discipline really is.
Montessori explained:
How it began, Why it works
- Montessorians try to teach with kindness, using the positive incentives of pride in achievement, craftsmanship for a job well done. They avoid any approach which uses carrot or stick, punishment or prize, blackmail or bribery. Maria Montessori discovered that children are well aware of the value of their achievements, and can see through lavish praise, particularly when a mistake is obvious. Like any intelligent people children wish to learn from their mistakes, to do it better next time, and so need objective assessment of what went wrong.
Because punishment usually humiliates, and most often causes a child to stop trying rather than to try to improve, it does not feature in a Montessori nursery. A child needs constructive help with errors and sympathetic assistance if there is an accident. Punishment rarely takes him further. When a grown-up spills a cup of coffee people are solicitous and helpful; if a child spills milk he is accused of carelessness, in spite of the fact that he has had less practice with drinks. In Montessori classrooms adults are sympathetic because they realise such mistakes are unintentional, and they respond by showing the child how to clear up the spilled milk, so he knows what to do next time...
"...on a road trip, if your 4 year old is in the back kicking your seat screaming, bitching, etc. etc. you can do anything but spank him?"
What's the "road trip" for? Family vacation? A "Wally World" adventure? Not much sympathy on your part if you can't understand your child's qualms with a "road trip". Didn't your parents ever subject you to the same torture? How can you not empathize with your kid?
What I love, is people without the wherewithal to raise even one kid, popping out three inside of five years! The stress and turmoil of getting married and trying to make a go of it at a young age isn't enough. They have to throw a kid or three into the mix!
In this topic I've seen people use the term discipline and spanking interchangeably... WRONG! Some people can have well disciplined kids without spanking. Some can have poorly disciplined kids with spanking. The ultimate goal is, or should be, well disciplined, self sufficient future citizens. Everybody is going to have a different method of getting there. Some will NEVER achieve this goal.
To me, it's like hearing these tales of woe regarding computer hardware and software problems. Two people with identical systems have problems. One handles the issues in a methodical, linear fashion and moves on. The other damns Microsoft, AMD or VIA to hell, and struggles along until they finally abandon it and build a new system. Trouble is, you can't FDISK your kids and start over. Why do some parents raise perfectly well disciplined kids without corporal punishment, and others beat their kids daily and never see positive results? You thinks some kids are just "born bad"?
That's another point I agreed with Dr. Phil about. Unless the kid has a problem like autism or retardation, they all CAN be disciplined. It's totally the responsibility of the parent to follow through from birth to adulthood. It CAN be done without spanking. It's been proven over and over. Some people feel spanking is the quick and easy solution. Actually, the alternative methods are FAR easier, more effective and less stressful in the long run. It's a simple matter of starting out with a good foundation. It's much harder to try and fix things after they've gone to hell. No surprise there. A
little study goes a LONG way!
Don't know if you guys saw the show, or read his thoughts from
his site, but I wanted to hear what his point of view was. The show had just started when I started the topic, so I didn't know what his big ideas were.
Now, having seen the show, I can say I agree with him 80%. One thing that clicks is "
Allow Them A Sense of Mastery". That goes hand in hand with what I know about the Montessori teaching methods.
I've never had to spank, and never used time outs. Skoorb asked for, "...a good way to get a misbehaving 2 year old to stop doing something really freaking annoying..." All I can say is study the logic behind Montessori. In a nutshell, quit telling kids what they can't or shouldn't do, and give them the power to DO things on their own! For one quick example, we showed our two year old how to USE the VCR instead of telling him to "not touch". He was instructed to rewind and remove his tapes and put them back in their jackets, then back on the shelf when he was done with them. No other toys or projects can be started till the last one is put away. No arguing, that's just the way it is and you MUST follow up on this ALWAYS. I think Dr. Phil touched on that too.
I've mentioned before that this course of study, Montessori, should be taught in public schools before people even become parents. Use that as a frame of reference for your own parenting style, because it's a rock solid foundation to build on!
"Children will test these reactions as they grow and their minds start to understand more of the world around them, and some of their actions require negative reinforcement to send a clear signal that what they are doing is wrong."
What is "negative reinforcement"? Sounds like an oxymoron! LOL.
J/K, but I prefer to call it consequences. They learn the consequence of an action. It's your job as a parent to keep it all consistent and logical. When the consequences involve safety, it's your job to keep them from harm's way. They should already be doing exactly as they're told by the time they're able to run in the street or stick a screwdriver in an outlet. When you tell them to stay by your side or leave the screwdriver in the toolbox, that's what they WILL do if you've disciplined them correctly up to that point. If they don't obey by then, you've already screwed up. I imagine that's when the frustration and physical "punishments" kick in.
Damn, it seems so easy in hindsight. I don't recall having to "punish" these boys. Not saying they weren't, but I can't remember any time off hand. Well, they were yelled at when I had to tell them something twice. That could be considered "negative reinforcement" or "punishment", I guess. Didn't happen often, though. Ground rules, habits and hierarchy were established VERY early on and followed through religiously.
"Spanking as a last resort."
I should say so! LOL. It seems so pathetic, barbaric and desperate! I guess I'd liken it to Palestinians throwing rocks at Israelis. By the time it comes to that, the war is already lost. It's not a matter of discipline anymore, it's more like survival and making the best of a bad situation. Actually, it's not funny. Kind of sad & silly. It would be funny if the stakes weren't so high. I guess if you mix a big dollop of love in the equation, the family will overcome poor discipline practices. Of course we all know society suffers when there is no discipline at all. Spanking would be the lesser of two evils there!
"...spanked me once..."
OMG!
LOL, I got spanked almost daily. Had a belt used on me quite frequently as well as paddle. Grounded quite often as well as yelled at routinely. I KNOW how lame that type of "discipline" is!
Honestly, it's just too bad this isn't taught in school. Nothing is taught about how to buy real estate, buy a car or manage those large transactions. Nothing about parenting. These are THE MOST IMPORTANT things you'll do in your life and none of it is even touched on. Talk about pathetic!
You live on a very busy street. You have told your todler/child not to go into the street or cross it, because it's very dangerous, etc.
A toddler can NEVER be left out of your sight in that type of situation. The younger the child is, the less they can be left out of sight.
An older child should know to ask to go across the street. At that point, you either take them across or tell them no.
If a child is told no, but insists, something is already wrong. I don't /won't argue. There is nothing to discuss. This should be established before it becomes the safety issue you posed. If they defy you for any reason, you've already lost your grip. You could list thousands of tragic scenarios that result from that basic problem. You're in charge, they do as you say... PERIOD! If that isn't the case at all times, one problem after another will crop up over and over. If that's what happens in the homes of most of most of this topic's respondents, then no wonder all the spanking is going on. PURE FRUSTRATION!
"...Some suggest that if you set clear rules for your children to follow early on, you should never find yourself in a situation when your child says no to you or goes right against your will in some other way. Right. What planet do you get those kids from?
I am not a parent myself...
...Learn that it is possible for two parties to have different opinions and still both be right."
(1) If you set clear rules and start good habits early on... everything will easily fall in to place where discipline is concerned and without spanking. That's fact. Otherwise, entire countries couldn't and wouldn't outlaw it. BTW, I never knew of this till I heard it in this topic!
(2) I am a parent myself and practice what I preach. My kids are living proof that spanking is NOT necessary at all. Both are red blooded American boys from planet Earth!
(3) You can spank kids and end up with good discipline and you can also end up with good discipline without spanking. Which way is preferable?
"...man, kids these days need more physical discipline (such as spanking).."talking" to them does not really work. "talking" to them is like just giving them a little slap on the wrist."
Discipline does NOT equal physical punishment. This stuff REALLY ought to be taught in school... How To Parent 101! Oh, here's a link to
Montessori Online, where you can get a head start learning how to do it right.
The bunch of F#$)*^&#) runts will be able to be found in that same area at some point in the future if you want to bag the little turds. Punks like that hang out in the same spots all the time. I wouldn't lay a hand on 'em, but that doesn't mean you can't teach 'em a lesson. Something along the line of throwing water over them would be "good fun", especially in winter. Once you know who they are, you can surprise them anytime. Make sure you tie the "surprise" to the snowball throwing incident, so they "learn".
Have Fun
It is FACT that kids can be disciplined without corporal punishment. The only question now is, why use that method in a "civilized" society? Decades ago, kids were beaten severely as the norm. As years went by, parents beat them less and less until today we see posts about,
"Never ever ever ever above the neck...", "...never used any implements...", "Beating or physical abuse is never a good thing...", "...dont mean beat the hell out the kid...", "might of been a little harsh", "...spanking for absolutely everything is absurd...", "...flogging, beating or lashing would be an entirely different subject...", "..."Spanking should be the last resort..." The line is being drawn at spanking, but not
too hard. It's completely banned in schools. In a couple more decades we should ALL be able to see it for the barbaric act it is.
Like I said, it's been PROVEN that kids can be disciplined without it. Why not advance to the future now?
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