Disappointed by Ati AIW Radion32 DDR horid software and no support for good ones-- UPDATE!! Read this Thread!! I changed my Mind!!! OH Boy Oh Boy!!!

[WetWilly]

I agree that Dazzle and Marvel are getting better at what they do BUT a board with hardware compression is where it's at for quality.

Ummm ... both the Dazzle DVC II (C-Cube) and Marvel (Zoran MJPEG, I believe) DO use commercially available, dedicated hardware for MPEG-2 compression/encoding. In fact, the C-Cube chip is apparently capable of transcoding MPEG-2 streams in real time, but Dazzle doesn't support it. As for the Marvel, I've actually seen a Celeron 500 (66MHz bus) capture at 704x480 without dropping ANY frames, something I haven't seen or heard of any AIW product doing at that CPU level or power. That said, I still have that question about ATI's hardware support. As for the real-time compression without hardware thing, well, I just tried CinemaCraft's MPEG-2 software encoder and on a test ripped VOB from a DVD it was doing very close to 1:1/real time encoding on a Duron 990.

FYI, the DVC II's problems are not really the hardware's fault, but Dazzle's. First, the DVC II didn't work with older Athlon boards (not sure if it was the AMD 750 or VIA KX133), so instead of testing for compatibility Dazzle stupidly issues a broad disclaimer stating it's not guaranteed to work with ANY Athlon system. Second, it took Dazzle close to a year to release decent software and recording templates. In fact, someone asked Dazzle for VCR-type capabilities from the DVC II - i.e. record/encode MPEG-2 to disk from an input source starting at X time and continue until Y time, then splitting the file and continue recording when the filesize reaches Z mega/gigabytes. Dazzle's response was "It'll never happen." Well, some guy in Germany realized that Dazzle shipped a fairly comprehensive ActiveX control with the DVC II, and programmed a very small utility that does exactly that and works a heck of a lot better than the DVC II's software. I've seen some SVCD clips from a DVC II, and the quality is excellent.

 

[NicColt]

>both the Dazzle DVC II and Marvel DO use ... dedicated hardware for MPEG-2 compression/encoding

Well then, I stan corrected. They got better than I thought.

 

[TGCid]

Yup, like WetWilly said, DV II can do MPeg1 and MPEG2 in real time while the Matrox Marvel can do MJPEG real time. Like every other cards, these two have their shortfalls. The DV II, according to people on another forum, has a sync problem and compatibility problem with the AMD 750 based motherboard (this is my motherboard). The Matrox's one on the other hand can only do MJpeg real time, although useful for video editing, is not that great for converting to VCD, or so I heard. Another thing with it is you are forced to use the out dated G400 3D chip which is too slow for me.

 

[WetWilly]

Slightly OT - the DVC II is one of those polarizing pieces of hardware, much like Abit stuff - people either absolutely love it or hate it to the point of wanting to sue Dazzle. There are a couple of points I've seen from people who get it to work properly. Some of these points are universal to many types of video capture

1) Don't preview to the computer monitor - this apparently eats up huge amounts of CPU resources with external devices like the Dazzle. Instead use the video out for preview. Also don't mux audio and video real-time - capture to separate files and mux later; it reduces the chances of sync problems.
2) Update to the latest software - the DVC II's 4.21 software supposedly fixes a lot of problems. Unfortunately, if you don't call Dazzle, they want $30 for the upgrade (another reason people are ticked off). For the DVC II, the Active X utility works real well lots of people.
3) Like Nic Colt has emphasized here, editing MPEG-2 isn't a walk in the park. Sync problems can be fixed by either using a decent MPEG-2 editor (which definitely aren't a dime a dozen) or usually by demuxing/remuxing the audio and video streams.

As for the Marvel, TGCid is right - MJPEG is better for editing, but has limited compatibility. OTOH, it also looks that the Marvel has far fewer sync problems than MPEG-2 solutions. I believe Matrox ships a MPEG-2 coded for transcoding MJPEG to MPEG-2. BTW, it looks like Matrox has jettisoned hardware encoding for their consumer-level stuff and now has realtime MPEG-2 software encoding on the G450 eTV.

 

[NicColt]

>it reduces the chances of sync problems.

I've been reading up on this problem, well it was a real problem for me until I fixed it. Apparently ATI (and others) to improve the card performance numbers they will hog the pci bus or cycles leaving other pci devices like the sound card to "catch-up". Sound cards are now more so PCI than ISA so they have to share the same pci bus that's why the sound would fall behind or out of sync, windows vcaching was not helping either. I originally set my PCI latency to 64 but I modified it with the following settings. To my shock and horror It was fixed instanly. No more sound out of sync, it's in perfect sync even in long MPEG-2 recordings. Finally some good news on the vid cap front.

Solution.

1. I got Cacheman it's free, set it to multimedia.

2. I set my "pci latency" in my Asus A7V 1007 bios to "0"

3. I set my system performance to normal.
(however I don't think that this affects anything but I'll make more test later to see if it does.)

Bingo. vid cap through MMC is in perfect sync.

 

[TGCid]

NicColt,

Are you referring to the DVII? If the fix works like you said, I might consider getting one. Do you like it and think it is worth the money or is should I go with the Radeon ViVo and go the software route.

 

[TungFree]

NicColt,
Congrats on this head scratching "out of sinc" sound. You are like a pitbull when you bite onto a problem, you donot let it go, till the problem is solved.
I downloaded the CashMan and am waiting for the new round of the MOBO to be reviewed so I can get my video card into the AGP slot. Wish I was able to be part of this machetey chopping in the jungle of Video editing pioneering forfronts, that you are blazing the trails for.

 

[WetWilly]

A couple of things:

1) I'd expect that BIOS option only changes the CPU-to-PCI Bridge latency because PCI latency is normally set individually for each device, and generally the minimum value is 32. If the AIW's latency was zero I doubt you'd EVER get a decent capture. Kind of curious because my Abit KT7 doesn't have the option, and when I checked the latency was set to zero for all system PCI devices/bridges, 32 for the sound card/network card/Promise Ultra controller, and 248 for the Gladiac GTS. BTW, that's a common fix for sound card and RAID problems.

2) Cacheman is a great program. Only question I had with using the multimedia setting is that the disk cache size is variable. For capture, I'd think you'd want that to be static since I wouldn't trust Windows to not screw around with its size during heavy activity.

3) I doubt the PCI latency fix would work for the DVC II, since it doesn't use the PC's sound card for audio capture - the audio inputs for capture go into the DVC II's breakout box, not the sound card. The other requirement for the DVC II that tends to get ignored is it HAS to have its own IRQ - it apparently doesn't like sharing at all. Unfortunately, that's real tough to accomplish when system boards may have a gazillion PCI slots and only 4 IRQs to share - subtract 1 for video, 1 for storage, 1 for sound, and you've got 1 IRQ left. The three common traits of sucessful DVC II users I've seen so far are 1) Using the 4.21 software, 2) don't use preview during capture, and 3) got the DVC II on its own IRQ - some even ended up building a cheap, low-end system just for DVC II because their systems were so loaded.

Lots of great tips, though, Nic.

 

[venomhed]

GOOD NEWS! I CAN NOW CAPTURE WITH VDUB and DIVX!

I went through hell and back and finally got what I wanted....sort of.

1. Formated my hard drive, installed Win 2000 Pro.

2. Installed the newest and latest ATI special purpose driver of MMC 7.1 and whatever their highest ATI AIW radeon 2000 drivers.

3. Did that and VDUB says "NO CAPTURE DEVICE"
Long story short, uninstalled, reinstalled the Radeon Drivers from the CD, nothing, same error.

GOTO 1. haha

Redid Win2k pro, installed the Radeon drivers from the CD this time. Vdub reads the ATI AIW RADEON but still, no codecs to choose from. SOOOO, I install the latest Special Purpose ATI drivers for RADEON AIW and WIN2k.

Installed DIVX CODEC 3.20

NOW Vdub goes to capture mode and WA LA, Divx is in there just like it should be and WORKS GREAT!

I have not tried installed all my other purchased codecs
Like Pegasus MJPEG. But lets face it the others aren't that great except Pegasus cuz it can caputer at 720X5XX DVD size no loss of frames.

ALSO the bonus of WIN2k is NTFS thus no 4 gig limit.

So NOW I am happy. Oh and a big F@#K YOU to ATI for having NO information on this and no information about "You first must install the drivers from the cd included in your product!"

ALSO, DO NOT INSTALL THE CREATIVE LABS WEBCAM 3 as it will TOTALLY destroy the ATI drivers PERMANENTLY. If you do this then
GOTO 1

Haaa.

 

[TungFree]

Venumhed, woohoo!! glad you succeded )
could you reread your post and maybe add in the precise point and cue that you saw on the screen when you installed the first time drivers and the 2nd time.
I will go reread your post but as I have it in my mids eye I am not clear on the diference between the unsuccessfull driver install and the sccessfull. I want to be sure to respond to the corect cues correctly and be spared you frustration with ATI LOL
I am glad you stuck it out M8 )

 

[NicColt]

venomhed What the...

>1. Formated my hard drive, installed Win 2000 Pro.
>2. Installed the newest and latest ATI special purpose driver
>3. Did that and VDUB says "NO CAPTURE DEVICE"

That would indeed explain more few things. In other words when you do a format you will need to install the CD drivers then update to the latest released drivers.

When you installed the latest released drivers did you un-install the CD drivers first? rbv5, venomhed this is important to know.

 

[TungFree]

Venumhed,
Reread your post. Be mindfull I never installed win2k pro usually while installing win98 and say a new modem b4 the instalation completes I get Qs to let it find the driver or me point it to the driver.

In your post that place is not clear to my perception. It seems on your 3rd Install of win2k Pro you say:
"...Redid Win2k pro, installed the Radeon drivers from the CD this time..."
Is that first Insatlled win2k, after it is fully installed, the drivers are installed from the CD, or while installing win2k and at the win2k request for driver, installed the Drivers from CD.

Simmilarly in other places I had no clarity on this perhaps obvious to others place but befudling to my mind.
Do Not get me wrong am very glad you posted, LOL just want to benefit ny it too )

 

[TungFree]

NicColt,
A suttle but important question, I failed to even consider, and am glad you are asking... if I went as deep as you I would eventually face your question.

 

[rbV5]

When I first installed my card I used the official sept 30th drivers first, 3035, then I went to the 3100 and now the 3102.

So if those are the same (3035's)as the ones on the cd(I never tried those)then there maybe something to that. I have seen posts where the capture and other multimedia functions were broken in the unsupported drivers, but mine never have been. I have just installed the new drivers without a clean install, and it works everytime so far.

 

[NicColt]

rb thanks for the info but the question remains, do you install over the already installed drivers or do you de-install the drivers and then install the news ones. I think were zeroing in on the cure.

 

[rbV5]

Just installed the new drivers each time, haven't uninstalled or cleaned the registry or anything, just installed the three different driver sets. 1.supported official drivers>2. 3100's> 3. 3102's. I was too lazy to uninstall and clean the registry and it worked so.....

 

[ZenOps]

Well, I'll put my thoughts in. Never JPG a JPG and never Mpeg a Mpeg.

If you do any professional coding you know that it is nearly impossible to edit Mpeg 2's. Mpeg 1/2/4 coding should always be the final pass before distribution. There are studio Mpeg-2 coders (that BTW do not work in real time) costing about $40,000. No one uses them nowadays anyway, they just Raid stripe a whole bunch of 80 Gig drives, its cheaper

The VCR2 AVI codec (which is almost the same as Mpeg-1, but optimized for editing so its a little bigger) is way easier to work with when cutting and splicing clips. If you have used the Matrox it is quite a bit tougher, and you can't cut it on a second by second basis without severe quality problems (it not Matrox's fault, its the Mpeg2 8 secs per keyframe)

 

[rbV5]

<Never JPG a JPG and never Mpeg a Mpeg> isn't that what you're doing when you rip a DVD to a Divx?

 

[Sandos]

Im a bit green at all this and still cant see what the difference is between the Hauppage WinTV PVR and an AiW? Surely theres some difference as the AiW 128 Pro is much cheaper and has 3D too, maybe the recording quality of the PVR is better?

So is it better to get the AIW Radion now even if Im not really interested in 3D performance or will the 128 Pro do mpeg 1+2 exactly the same, does the 128 Pro do mpeg2 in hardware? Are they both PCI?

Finally,
Is hardware encoding to mpg2 and then transfer to vcd the same or worse quality than capturing uncompressed and then encoding in software?
Id be worried about spending money on hardware compression and then never using it cause I can do much better in software.

thx

 

[rbV5]

I'm no expert myself and I can't comment on the Hauppage WinTV PVR but I've heard that its a nice card, I also never considered the 128 AIW because for the price, the AIW Radeon was so supierior and 3D features were important to me.

The Radeon is a complete solution, it is an AGP card, while the Hauppage takes an extra PCI slot and requires another VGA card that supports video overlays. I also notice that the Hauppage doesn't support Win2k, thats a problem if you want to use a NTFS volume for video capture.

Capturing uncompressed video takes HUGE amounts of hardrive space, but you have far better editing choices and you can output whatever you have codecs for.

Encoding on the fly, takes more powerful hardware and limits your editing choices.

You can turn out excellent or lousy video either way you go.

 

[TungFree]

reading u all just have no comment of value...

 

[venomhed]

Sorry my previous post was written too fast.

Anyways, as in the past once ATI installs a driver it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to go backwards. Actually I will go as far as saying it IS impossible.

My Radeon AIW CD (American) say
ATI Software release 100
180-v01028-100

What driver #? Have no clue.
I installed Win 2000 Pro, from scratch, no upgrade, wiped my scsi drive, bare bones. Windows 2k will detect the video card but not correctly. Just said like Super VGA. So I put in the Radeon CD, let it autoplay, easy install, wa la Radeon with mmc 7.0 works fine but no codecs at this point (installed Divx after Radeon install and reboot).

Went to ATI, grabbed the latest Beta Special Purpose Drivers and MMC 7.1. Installed driver, reboot, installed MMC 7.1, reboot. Go to VDUB, Divx codec there. Installed Pegasus MJPEG, codec appears fine. Those are really the only two I ever use. The rest is stuff I do afterwards (flask, Tmpeg etc.)

Hope that helps. Looks like if your Radeon isnt working now, I would suggest making an image/ghost of your drive, saving the image offline or on another partition, wipe drive, install win2k pro (see above) and if it works then go from there.

BTW - ATI NEVER EVER again, they totally lost me as a customer. NVIDIA for me man.

 

[rbV5]

Isn't MMC 7.1 for the TV Wonder card? not the AIW Radeon?

 

[NicColt]

Very interesting info. I'm still stumped as to why it works for some and not others. But I won't be able to prove my theories until I get my hands on win2kpro.

BTW Cacheman is only for WIN98 only. 2K handles the vcache differently.

 

[TungFree]

NicColt g'morning,
I noticed that on their site, yes about the win 98 compatibility. One thought comes to mind when rehashing rbV5's consideration that winCE was also capable, hence the win2kPro theory is not likely to be the only solution, is that perhaps all but win98 are capable...