Disappointed by Ati AIW Radion32 DDR horid software and no support for good ones-- UPDATE!! Read this Thread!! I changed my Mind!!! OH Boy Oh Boy!!!

[TungFree]

I just tested my newly bought ATI AIW radion 32DDR. The reviews never clearly stated what trash this is to video editing.
first of all If I want to bring in a VHS tape with 6 minutes of video. The only software that can capture this is the packaged one and get THIS!! it can only save it as AVI file if you want to edit it using the card and software, and that 6 minutes becomes 1.7 meg on the hard drive (Imagine a full featured video movie to convert it you will need more than 20gig drive for a single movie!!!
if you save it as mpg2 the software that saved it now canot read it in only AVI can be read in and no other...
so yes you can use it as a vcr like the add sais but you need 60megs to save 2 movies Bwhahahahahahahhahahah.... OMG I feel screwd.
Yes I could use it as a graphics card and as a TV. But I only wanted the TV so I can record from it. and occasionally watch and see how a 19" monitor 1600x1200 will look. Which I now see the max rez is much less.
Now I wish I had gotten a matrox 450 with 2 heads and TV capability because it can support the professional software to capture from inputs to hard drive and edit the many vido formats...
How could reviews have left out such criticall information.
ARGHHH!!!

 

[digim0rtal]

It is much better to edit in an uncompressed format. Also if you were going to do video editing you should have planned better. I plan on doing some in the future, so that's why I bought a Raid board and plan on a SCSI card. I plan on having at least 120gig before I even touch video (waiting for the price to come down on 60 giggers). Yes that card is not for professionals, but for the average Joe (with lots 'o HD space) it works great, and it even plays games well (cannot be said for the Matrox).

 

[rbV5]

Don't feel screwed! Your selling your Radeon short.

Actually there are several ways to capture with the AIW Radeon, You can use the ATI digital VCR application to capture AVI YUV raw video(uncompressed) this is best for editing and most video editing software supports this format, uses a huge amount of hardrive space. Mpeg1 and 2, compresses on the fly so it takes less hardrive space and more cpu power to avoid dropping frames. Not the best for editing because its already compressed, but can be edited in a variety of software packages(change the extension from *.mpg or *.m2p if your software wont load it)hint: Use Flaskmpg to make small high quality divx!

You don't have to use ATI software to capture, in fact I believe any software that is compatable with the matrox cards are also compatable with the AIW (I think they also ship with Uulead video studio same as the AIW unless you get the g400 Marvel which I believe ships with Avid Cinema, and I don't particularly like either one) I have used Adobe Premiere(I use this mostly, great for capturing and editing) VirtualDub (very powerful freeware capture/conversion software) Amcap (I like this as well, came with my Directx8 SDK)

Your monitor resolution is not the same as video resolution, Here are the resolutions of popular video formats as far as I know:

DVD = 720x480
VHS = 300x360
VCD = 352x240 NTSC or 352x288 Pal
Broadcast TV, I believe is between VHS and DVD 500, something by ?
please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just learning also

In other words, watching a DVD on your computer full screen(or out to your tv for that matter) will look the same whether your Monitor resolution is 800x600 or 1600x1200.

There is MUCH more to video capture/editing than meets the eye, it takes a powerful computer and tons of hardrive space(you compress it after you capture and edit your video and with the proper codecs, you can burn almost 2 hours of near DVD quality video onto 1 CD, so the hardrive space is temporary anyway) I am a newby to Video capture/editing myself, and found that there is a tremendous amount of misinformation and half truths about the video capability of this card on this and other boards.

my conclusion: the AIW Radeon is a powerful video solution, that can produce excellent results in the right hands. Its very adept at Gaming and its DVD playback is second to none. Like anything else, its not so much the tool as the person opperating the tool that determines the quality of the end result. (I have yet to find the right combination to properly transfer my VHS to CD myself)

 

[TungFree]

digim0rtal I am no pro at video editing I am one of the first Commodore Amiga owners that ran a computer club for 200 families with another friend. In 1987 we had software to begin to dab in video then later came the toaster and then light wave. those were the days of starting with 1/4 meg ram and gradually upgrading to 2 megs which was huge then and costly.
No I was not prepaird, actually am still using a 133 MHZ computer and the tests were done at a friend's computer with a 450mhz. I am waiting for either or amongst the new boards that will have both DDR and sdram slots already bought 516 MB of ram sitting in my drawer since this computer has 72 pin memory. I have a 20 meg hard drive and the new board will have Raid, and I was going to approach the purchases gradually as I needed them since video cap5ture and edit was going to be for Hawaii video editing for friends that asked me to video my home construction and the volcaanoe scapes and sceens.
I will add a new post to answer rbV5, and I thank you for your input and stay tuned for more

 

[TungFree]

rbV5,
first of all thank you for the time you took. It amazes me that usually long posts are distastefull to assimulate but yours seemed too short LOL Bwahahahahah )
while I was involved in video since its conception, it was always not my thing as I had no camera and the software then was very complex. So I was near by as my friends (one owned a TV station the other was the commercials director for a TV Cable company for Hilo on the Big Island Of Hawaii and yet others who were graphic artists and one was a composer for the Honolulu symphony orchestra writing music around Hawaiian Ledgends and several C programmers and original game boys.
I am very glad you are showing me the errors of my understanding and my rushed conclusions on the ATI AIW Radion 32 ddr card.

It is a pleasure to read you

I hope to get to know you better and maintain comunication, simce the leaval of your interest is comprable to mine.
My current friend whos computer we used to pretest this card was the Local High School's main helper to the teacher and director of video productions and the entire networking of the school. He is only 20 but has been at computers from the 386 days, and is well rounded and grounded in windows and games and Video. He is on new to anand since 2 days ago I asked him to Join in his nick is "Bile" LOL )
He may be reading this thread or not.
Your data filled post pleases me imensly; and if upon rereading your own post you think of missing tid-bits you failed to include, especially "codecs" you may know of, feel free to add them or e-mail me.
What version of Adobe premiere are you using? Bile and I tried the premier 5.1 with some updates, and that one could not capture at all, nor bring in MPG2 and the packaged software could only save in AVI and IN MPG2 and what a laugh it could not bring in MPG2 that it saved. Bile thought there may be some codecs that could help but he did not know of any just then.

Actually the Version of the Premiere software we used, is compatible with Matrox but cannot capture with ATI. VirtualDub I will look for, and thank you for bringing it to my attantion and Amcap I would love to audition.
One thing that was great in The Amigs Commodore computers was the many resolutions you could do at once. so all you did was switch screens and each screen had its own rez but I am glad you restated the varrious resolutions.

Your mentioning the 2 hours of burning into a CD I assume you meant in MPG4 format after converting. Your comment of tremendeos misinformation may be supplemented with 'lack of full information' I will add, The reviews were concerned with 2D and 3D and did not go into editing deeply nor expose the need for huge hard drives nor the weaknes of the packaged software, nor the research that digim0rtal mentions above. It seems since few have much knowledge in video editing, The reviewers do not want to fill the pages with knowhow for the ones that already know and have no need for it. But the Video age is here and as digim0rtal said he is waiting for the prices to drop on storage, so are others, and lastly, Raid is here for ADI and of course I have a SCSI controller and small SCSI hard drives but If I make no money from video then it is prohibitive to dream, scsi editing for my amature interest that may GROW ).
Hoprfully I will become the right hands that you speak of needed for this process.
Keep comments coming ) I am HUNGRY LOL.
.

 

[Hawk]

Sorry Tungfree, too long for me!!! =) j/k

But you can choose different formats to encode, and I heard that if you install more codecs (such as DIVX), you can record in that format...

I think that's what rbV5 probably told you, but hopefully you will get to like your AIW better. Good luck.

 

[TungFree]

Hiya hawk
you came just as I am feeling a whole lot better about this board. Seems i need a long curve of assimulating the tools available and based on another's reactions. All I wanted to do is be able to record or videotape circumstances then edit out what I do not need and seems from the help that came my way that there may be such tools to capture and save in other formats using codecs.
I will need to find such codecs and learn to use them.

 

[Bile]

When I tested this card I could not get it to capture with any other programs I tried. They where Premiere 5.1, and a base AVI editer ?AVI edit?. Nothing, the video card does not come with a capture device driver that any other program can see.

I have the entire Indeo video codex library(AVI) from Intel and Divx installed and could not capture these types using the ATI software(Premiere 5.1 supports them).

As I read these posts I dont see anything specific that will help this problem. If there is a specific driver or codec that will fix this let me and TungFree know.

 

[Bile]

And the AVI file it came out with was not readable by any program but the ATI video reader. I found this out after uninstalling the reader.

 

[TungFree]

Bile Aloha! neighbor
What you mean is the file you saved with my card and the packaged software you saved it with are now no longer installed and you could not open the AVI 6 minute file that spanned approximately 1.7gigs into Premiere 5.1 to be exact?

 

[Bile]

Exactly! cant be read through the media player ether.

 

[TungFree]

Hmmm very peculiar
Not someting I understand. Do your recall if you were able to read it when my software was installed into your computer, with it? Now I wonder if it saved a corrupted file?

 

[rbV5]

The Rage Theater Driver is recognized in Premiere V6, I upgraded right before I got my radeon, so I can't be positive, but I would think 5.1 supports it also. The legacy microsoft capture driver is recognised in VirtualDub, so between the two capture drivers, most capture software should work to capture.

Here is an interesting link I found with a forum aimed at Making VCD's which to me look like maybe the way to go for converting your VHS tapes to CD.

VCD forum

 

[RGN]

I can capture in Premire 5.1, Virtualdub and the ATI programs. I've got a 64 VIVO. Premire drops frames like a mofo, while virtualdub and ATI are ok. The mmc7.1 software(under win2k) is pretty s|-|177y - locks up often.

 

[Hawk]

I managed to capture 30 minutes of Silver Hawk from TV at 640 with no frame drops before, but with the newer drivers (in Win98) I can't do it at 640 anymore...maybe you can try different drivers RGN.

 

[NicColt]

Here's what I'm upto. The ATI uses the Cinemaster mpg codec, it's not the best but it does the job. That codec get's installed when you intall the ATI DVD. So if you want to play your MPG files in Windows media player install the ATI DVD on that particular computer. WMP cannot install the cinemaster codec because you have to pay for it. I think it also comes with PowerDVD but I'm not sure.

Here's what I did, I went into the setup and did a custom mpg codec to a low bitrate with mpg2, the only thing I changed was the bitrate, I'll increase the bitrate as my testing continues. Went to guide+ and recorded a one hour show. I can do a 1 hour mpg2 capture with a low bitrate and it comes in at 600 megs so there's room for bitrate improvements. I was surprised at how good it looked at such a low bitrate.

What everyone really needs is a decent MPG2 editor, Ulead studio can edit MPG2 but sux major a.. at doing it and then renders it back into the cinemaster mpg codec and you don't want that. I've been using Vegas Video and it's one major kickass MPG2 editor, it also has the Ligos MPG codec built-in, it's not THE best but it does a much better job than the cinemaster. I had it up and running in no time, it's time to dump Premiere after seeing this. I was able to trim my video and do video FX in record time. Once I'm finished I can then render it into a QT MOV, G2 RM, Windows Media Encoder WMV file or MPG2 with the Ligos codec, all with variable bitrates. What else can you ask for. My 1 hour show without the commercials came in at 42 minutes and with the maximum bitrate of WMV the file came in at 333 megs. I screwed up the sound in the clipping and editing and the sound was out of sync for 2 seconds at the end but that was my fault, I screwed to much with the settings and so on. I just need to practice a little with it and redo it and I'm sure it will be fine.

 

[Hawk]

Oh wow, nicColt, sounds like you've fixed your problems and are a pretty experienced vid capture guy with the Radeon now...perhaps I'll ask you next time when I run into trouble. Cool.

 

[rbV5]

The *.mp2 files I capture with the ATI digital VCR play in WMP v6.4, I didn't like the WMP7. I found that if you change the file extension to *.mpg or *.m2p they will open in any mpeg player or editor, give it a try!

 

[NicColt]

Don't get me wrong, with this $385Cdn capture card I still can't use any Video for Windows applications like Cuseeme or NetMeeting, for that I use the more state of the art $5 Quickclip usb capture card that works flawlessly. I bought that from connectix years back and Logitech now owns it, I just checked and they don't even have it on there products page anymore. It was originally released for Windows95, imagine that and it works better than the AIW-Radeon. I'm trying to put that behind me and move on now. But I still can't get over it.

But at least with the Radeon I can record to MPG-2 with 0 frame loss with a poor man's mpg codec, I think they went with the cinemaster codec because of the hardware DVD. I think it would have been to much for them to include the cinemaster codec to view DVD's and to include the Ligos codec to record MPG's so they went with the cinemaster only, even if that means that you can't play your recordings on other computers. If you want other computers to view your radeon's mpg recording's they either have to have PowerDVD installed or they will have to pay for the cinemaster codec. If you want other computers to view your mpg-2 recordings you have to render them into a format/codec that they can view. Even with the AIW Radeon with Ulead studio, it's still considered to be in the stone age of video capture, the poor man's video capture bundle.

I loaded Ulead and tried it once and that was it. I took the Ulead CD, put it in a one-way envelope and sent it to hell first class mail. I've tried and tried with Premiere 6.0 but it's to cryptic, cluttered and confusing for simple slice and dice video capture.

With Vegas Video (not cheap because they probably have to pay a royalty for all the codecs) it's exactly what I wanted, it supports every format I want, QT, RM, any AVI codec, DIVX, WMV, ASF, Ligos MPG2, it can be very easy to use or it can be very complicated depending on what you want to-do with it. I still have more testing to-do but it's looking much better.

The bad thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from. Because of all the in-fighting between standards and codecs and what not, It's just sad that, to achieve this level of basic video capture and editing that it has to be so expensive, complicated and confusing.

 

[NicColt]

rbv5, of course they will play, because when you installed the ATI DVD or PowerDVD it installs the cinemaster codec. If wmp 6.4 or 7 see it there it will use it. The computers that don't have that codec won't be able to download it from codec.microsoft.com

Just another word on codecs, with the full codec you can encode and decode or in other words record a clip and then view it.

DIVX for example is a full free codec, you can encode and decode with it.

The MP3 Fraunhofer codec for example is not all free, to encode with it, you need to pay for it, but to listen to it that part of the codec is free.

Take Adobe Acrobat for example, even if you have the free viewer you can't make an acrobat document with it. In order to make a document you have to pay for the writer, but the viewer is free.

Normally when MP7 loads a file and it doens't have the codec it will attemp to download the free "viewer" codec from codec.microsoft.com

In the case of the Cinemaster codec, when you buy the ATI MMC or PowerDVD software the full codec is included. However cinemaster doesn't give away the "viewer" codec. You have to buy the codec to view a cinemaster MPG and that is low. Unlike the Ligos codec if you encode an mpg with it and you email it to your friend. MP7 will attemp to download the free Ligos "viewer" codec but he won't have the "writer" Ligos codec.

Ok time to goto bed

 

[rbV5]

You've lost me again NicColt , LOL

I'm a newbie when it comes to video capture, so most of your posts just go over my head. TungFree, I believe originally started this thread because he wasn't aware of how to use the included software package, didn't know how to make use of its capabilities, and wished he'd have gotten another card to make use of other "professional software".

The fact is, everything he wished the AIW Radeon could do, IT DOES DO, and is capable of much more. I am mearly pointing out my experiences in the hope that he can be as happy as I am with my AIW.

Software packages are in the eye of the beholder, I'm glad you're having success with Vegas Video (I'm going to check it out), I myself like Premier, and find it easy to use especially for simple editing, and powerful enough that I'm likely to not outgrow it anytime soon, and with Cleaner included, you can target your product to anyone. I'm sure there is also been some amazing stuff made with Uulead studio when in the right hands.(it comes bundled with many capture cards, not just the radeon for some reason)

Here are the facts as I know them:

1.The AIW Radeon CAN capture video with the included software and/or third party software.
2.Video captures DO take up alot of hardrive space.
3.You CAN share your masterpieces with other people, and they can view them on their computers.
4.Video Editing and professional software packages ARE NOT something you learn or master overnight.
5.I have a lot to learn when it comes to working with video, my eyes and ears are open

 

[TungFree]

My silence is for a reason.
I was paying attention and did not want to break the flow of all the valuable information coming in.
Here is my take on any subject when it comes to mastering it. There are, many, many, leavels to chess players and one can prove that, quickly, by having a tournament and ratings. it is much harder to realize this is true in all walks of life.
This thread certainly proves the diversity of skills know how and acomplishments of ones desires ina field.
I do not know where my interests will take me so I am ever so pleased Hawk, rbV5, RGN, NicColt, and Bile, have graced me with your presence.
I am unconcerned that I cannot assimulate all that everyone said, since assimulation is like getting to know a town full of ppl their names and their connections to me, as you all have shown a bit of u here.
I did in addition to my befuddlement wanted to know as much as I could about Codecs and NicCold u certainly did use that word a good many times .. and I feel pleased for it )
rbV5 although nick colt has used many names and uses I am sure I will make a table of the things he said so I can see it all in a glance. You are a very fine teacher as u detail organize and summerize. NicColt is more of a User and through trial and error he discoverd what interested him and what software was best for that.
I plan to read and rerread and reread and reread till the names are familiar and the actions are in my mind's eye. BTW you live near Portland wher my GFriend's brother has 3 pizza stores called "Pizza Shemizza" his name is Andre say hello from Dick and Danielle his 1/2 sister

because I do not yet have it all understood I do not know if there is more to be said. If any of u think of it or wish to restate it in other ways please do. Iwas hungry for ya all and can have all u throw at me.

Mahalo Plenty (Big Thanks in Hawaii Jargen) Mahalo= thank you

Now Bile get your ass in to this thread and Help me get this wonderfull help assimulated Bwahahahahahhahahahah

Keep it coming if u feel the urge....

 

[jbaj007]

rbV5 and NicColt, You guys are way to humble; I learned more in this thread than a full evening of "search and destroy" on the web regarding capture. Thanks. Is it true that Premier v6 was written to use dual processors to full effectiveness (not just multitasking, but actually within the application itself) with WIN2K? I don't want to get it if I can't use it to full advantage.

 

[NicColt]

>1.The AIW Radeon CAN capture video with ... third party software.

Only if the third party software supports the (DirectShow API) or a Video for Windows to DirectShow mapper. If it only supports direct Video for Windows it won't work.
Because ATI mislead you into... (ok I promissed I won't get into this anymore)

>2.Video captures DO take up alot of hardrive space.

Yes I do certainly agree, approx 15-20 minutes with full uncompress video to a 4GB limit at a time.

But we can capture with compression now. and the radeon is the only (low-end consumer) card that does compression (and decompression) at the hardware level, most sub >$1000 captures cards do software compression. Having hardware compression of course makes for a better video clip, the problem is that the radeon uses a cheaper MPG codec (Cinemaster).

>3.You CAN share your masterpieces with other people, and they can view them on their computers.

If they have the SAME codec as the one it was recorded or rendered with.

For example if you recorded a clip with the Cinemaster MPG codec and mailed it to your friend that doesn't have ATI-DVD or PowerDVD installed, they won't have the codec installed and won't be able to play it. The only way they will be able to view the clip is if they either BUY the codec, or install ATI-DVD or PowerDVD since it's included in those software.

If for example you recorded the clip with the Indeo 5.02 codec and you mailed it to your friend, and he doesn't have that codec installed and he attemps to play it through WMP, the player will attemp to connect to codec.microsoft.com and download that free "Indeo 5.02" codec to play the clip. Since the Indeo 5.02 codec is Free for distribution.

If you want to play clips on your computer only then the ATI "Cinemaster" MPG-2 codec if fine.

If you want to email a clip to a friend or two, just make sure that you record the clip into a codec that they either already have or a codec that is free for automatic download.

If you want to distribute a clip to 1000's of potential people that connect to your website. You may want to render that into a QuickTime MOV, RealMedia RM, or Windows Media Player ASF or WMV file. Most people have access to the Free QT, RM, WMP viewers and won't need to download additional codecs. However not all software can save as or "Render" a clip to those formats.

Let's keep this going.

 

[rbV5]

TungFree, there is a "Pizza Shemizza" right here in Forest Grove where I live! My son and friends go there all the time and it is highly recommended, I'll say Hi next time I'm in there.

I see what your saying Nic, your talking about basically DVD content(mpeg2) on a CD rom format(how else could you realistically share it with friends?) and then them being able to play it without a software DVD player, but in a real world situation, you likely wouldn't want to deliver your content in that manner(you can only get so many minutes on the CD). Your not likely to do DVD Mastering on a PC without a DVDR(or whatever they are going to call them)so you'll likely compress the mp2 video stream with something like Flaskmpg into a Divx file, then burn it to a CD, then anyone can view the content on their computers.

jbaj007, not sure about Premiere SMP, but I'll check the documentation when I get a chance, also the Adobe site has alot of great info on their products.