DiRT on ATI by NVIDIA P.R. XFX R&D

[TulipGTX]

Okkk i have some nice dirt on amd.

HI i am someone you can know about me from ( http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2140685&enterthread=y )

Acording to the PR guys (Nvidia spys) the 3870 x2 rather being just a last stand for the HD3xxx series is actrally the step towards the new R700 that will also use two cores like the 3870 X2 does now.

So, Amd is right now learning from the 3870 X2 experiance for the new R700 design for heat issues and TDP rate, etc. "Just very brilliant i would say" they said the 9800 GX2 would not be opted by many companies on lieu of its rather high heat issues and would thusend up in a smaller number as compared to 3879 x2, so it is a up hill battle for 9800 GX2...!!!

But as you know those PR guys they allways end with their last word and i quote "As you all know the pre-exams of the new core have been done with it the R700 does not stand a chance as even we learn for experiance and we can say that one core is better than two in a world where games are not properly utilized for twin GPU execution. Besides more than 50% game maker's prefer nvidia over amd..."

 

[DSF]

After thoroughly examining the broken link, I deem this thread to be chock full of credible information.

 

[apoppin]

we already know ... no "dirt" ... AMD is going to crush nvidia with multi-core gup implementation ... their drivers currently kick ass for Crossfire and it will only get better!

at least that IS amd's plan

nvidia is currrently licking their wounds over their defeat in losing the performance crown at the hands of AMD's single slot solution ...

it's called "sour grapes" marketing

 

[TulipGTX]

Originally posted by: apoppin
we already know ... no "dirt" ... AMD is going to crush nvidia with multi-core gup implementation ... their drivers currently kick ass for Crossfire and it will only get better!

at least that IS amd's plan

nvidia is currrently licking their wounds over their defeat in losing the performance crown at the hands of AMD's single slot solution ...

it's called "sour grapes" marketing

But how i taught these PR guys come up to keep the moral up in the company or was i wrong??

EDIT and the PR guys said that single core is better than two cores as a way to keep cost down and get better performance.....

 

[NinjaJedi]

The reason games do not scale well in SLI/Xfire is because the % of people using SLI/Xfire is far smaller than the people using single cards. It is not cost effective for game developers to work on making a game run in those dual card situations if only a small % of people have the hard ware. It was the same thing with phisX cards. If ATI & NV can really step up and get these double GPU cards to work and they become the norm for high end cards (and hopefully lower end ones too) the game developers would be more likely to work on making games that run better on them. Scaling in SLI/Xfrire needs to start with the game developers then be optimized by drivers.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: TulipGTX

Originally posted by: apoppin
we already know ... no "dirt" ... AMD is going to crush nvidia with multi-core gup implementation ... their drivers currently kick ass for Crossfire and it will only get better!

at least that IS amd's plan

nvidia is currrently licking their wounds over their defeat in losing the performance crown at the hands of AMD's single slot solution ...

it's called "sour grapes" marketing

But how i taught these PR guys come up to keep the moral up in the company or was i wrong??

EDIT and the PR guys said that single core is better than two cores as a way to keep cost down and get better performance.....

... and now you 'get it'

that is why they are "PR guys" ... marketers ... they actually don't know anything ... their job is to praise their product and find fault with their competition and they cannot at all be happy with losing the performance crown - even for an 'hour'.

AMD is heading in a *completely different* direction away from nvidia ... a direction that nvidia actually restarted for them with SLi ... only AMD is opting to perfect it.

Personally, i think AMD will win this one ... CrossFire has simply blown away SLi in terms of "most improved" over the last year or so.
--i think we will see working quad Crossfire soon .. then Ocoto-Xfire ... ad infinitum ... nvidia doesn't think that far ahead imo.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: DSF
After thoroughly examining the broken link, I deem this thread to be chock full of credible information.

LOL- this is very funny!

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Personally, i think AMD will win this one ... CrossFire has simply blown away SLi in terms of "most improved" over the last year or so.
--i think we will see working quad Crossfire soon .. then Ocoto-Xfire ... ad infinitum ... nvidia doesn't think that far ahead imo.

"Most improved" is kind of a moot point.

Here's where we're at for advantages and disadvantages of each:

SLi Advantages:
1. Allows user to create profiles.
2. Allows user to edit profiles
3. Allows user three default for non profiled (AFR1, AFR2, SFR), ATi only allows AFR at this point. (I think- they used to have tiling as well, but I don't know they still do, or if people consider that a "good" thing given the downsides of tiling)
4. Much larger dev relations program means 90% of big new games launch with SLi profiles, no wait.
5. Better AA modes
6. Better AF
7. Far greater choices for mid range to high end (there actually is no CF "high end" now- only midrange)
8. Quad Sli currently working
9. SliZone Certified Products program allows users to match components they know will work.
10. Hardware AA allows for AA in titles like Bioshock where ATi shader resolve AA doesn't work
11. Superior DX10 performance

Crossfire Advantages:
1. More flexibility matching cards. (this is not an advantage in my opinion because scaling is diminished when a slow and fast card have to have their loads balanced)
2. Multiple monitor support.
3. Ability to use ATi or Intel motherboards.

If anyone disagrees with any of the above, let's discuss.

Edit:
BTW- please don't construe the above as me saying CF is "bad". I agree it's improved much from where it's been and is pretty good now. I just think SLi has more driver flexibility and current NVIDIA GPUs have design advantages. (texture fillrate, not VLIW, not shader resolve AA, etc)

I'm only debating whether ATi is winning the multi GPU battle, I think it's pretty clear they're not.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Well i guess the 9800GX2 is just a short term product. This has already been indicated at the 4Q nVIDIA CC. They also indicated that single chip solutions are the way to go, so we can expect a single chip high end solution nVIDIA sometime this year.

Maybe nVIDIA can learn a thing or two from ATI to design better heat efficient dual GPU solutions

 

[Piuc2020]

A key point where ATI is winning on multi-gpu is in the single-slot area, it doesn't need double deck and the power consumption and heat are not bad, however, it doesn't help that an overclocked single 8800GTS G92 can give it hell in a few scenarios.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: apoppin

Personally, i think AMD will win this one ... CrossFire has simply blown away SLi in terms of "most improved" over the last year or so.
--i think we will see working quad Crossfire soon .. then Ocoto-Xfire ... ad infinitum ... nvidia doesn't think that far ahead imo.

"Most improved" is kind of a moot point.

Here's where we're at for advantages and disadvantages of each:

SLi Advantages:
1. Allows user to create profiles.
2. Allows user to edit profiles
3. Allows user three default for non profiled (AFR1, AFR2, SFR), ATi only allows AFR at this point. (I think- they used to have tiling as well, but I don't know they still do, or if people consider that a "good" thing given the downsides of tiling)
4. Much larger dev relations program means 90% of big new games launch with SLi profiles, no wait.
5. Better AA modes
6. Better AF
7. Far greater choices for mid range to high end (there actually is no CF "high end" now- only midrange)
8. Quad Sli currently working
9. SliZone Certified Products program allows users to match components they know will work.
10. Hardware AA allows for AA in titles like Bioshock where ATi shader resolve AA doesn't work
11. Superior DX10 performance

Crossfire Advantages:
1. More flexibility matching cards. (this is not an advantage in my opinion because scaling is diminished when a slow and fast card have to have their loads balanced)
2. Multiple monitor support.
3. Ability to use ATi or Intel motherboards.

If anyone disagrees with any of the above, let's discuss.

Edit:
BTW- please don't construe the above as me saying CF is "bad". I agree it's improved much from where it's been and is pretty good now. I just think SLi has more driver flexibility and current NVIDIA GPUs have design advantages. (texture fillrate, not VLIW, not shader resolve AA, etc)

I'm only debating whether ATi is winning the multi GPU battle, I think it's pretty clear they're not.

again ... when i stated *most improved* .. i meant MOST IMPROVED

Do you remember x800 crossfire? ... compared to SLi it was a JOKE ... only the most hardened ATi fanboys would defend or buy it and it was a shock that ATi actually brought it out and actually supported it.
it was beyond limited.

That wasn't very long ago ... it appears that ATi didn't give a crap about multi-GPU - except to counter nvidia. That all changed with the acquisition. AMD was already looking at "Fusion" and multi-core and just mandated that their new "division" make it a *supreme priority*

... and it shows ... from being "Dead" as a competitor to nvidia - six months agoi with a midrange solution only - to taking the single slot performance crown away from nvidia using refined CrossFire technology, AMD is back with a *commitment* to multi-GPU as THEIR way of beating your company ... for the foreseeable future

Get used to it



... As to "profiles" ... i would much rather not need them .. at all
- you can have your 1 & 2 "advantages"

3. :roll:

4. Surprisingly, AMD catches up within a month - every time ... so that is a big waste of nvidia's money imo

5 & 6 are your green glasses opinion

7. Wait and see if Quad Crossfire beats Tri-sli

8. see 7 [above]

9. AMD has the same program

10. Are you SURE?

11. BS .. play Call of Juarez
--or Hellgate



===========

1. Huge advantage. CCC allows you to *maximize* each core/vRAM to separately optimize each GPU ... you can step up from a Pro to an XT or from a successfully OC'd 3850 to 3780 ... or down, like did with an XT and a highly clocked pro.

2. Yeah .,.. what about multi-monitor support from nvidia ... they had SLi for years now ... will they figure out how to do it or is it a limitation of SLI?

3. Well, yeah

 

[LOUISSSSS]

Originally posted by: nRollo

SLi Advantages:
1. Allows user to create profiles.
2. Allows user to edit profiles
3. Allows user three default for non profiled (AFR1, AFR2, SFR), ATi only allows AFR at this point. (I think- they used to have tiling as well, but I don't know they still do, or if people consider that a "good" thing given the downsides of tiling)
4. Much larger dev relations program means 90% of big new games launch with SLi profiles, no wait. don't need rofiles, don't want profiles, we want drivers that work with everything.
5. Better AA modes
6. Better AF no opinions please.
7. Far greater choices for mid range to high end (there actually is no CF "high end" now- only midrange) <~ there is no need for anything over 3870x2 or 8800gt sli right now in 99% of the market.
8. Quad Sli currently working <~ with which current cards and motherboards and drivers?
9. SliZone Certified Products program allows users to match components they know will work. <~ marketting. no need for it. AMD has the same. shouldn't be there in the first place if everything worked.
10. Hardware AA allows for AA in titles like Bioshock where ATi shader resolve AA doesn't work. don't know... haven't used an ati card since my last x1900xt. AA did work tho.
11. no

Crossfire Advantages:
1. More flexibility matching cards. (this is not an advantage in my opinion because scaling is diminished when a slow and fast card have to have their loads balanced)
2. Multiple monitor support.
3. Ability to use ATi or Intel motherboards

 

[ja1484]

Most improved doesn't mean much if your solution had a ton of room for improvement in the first place. Originally, Xfire wasn't even compared to SLi without inducing laughter. Now they're equal-ish. I don't think that spells doom for SLi or Nvidia.

 

[NinjaJedi]

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: apoppin

Personally, i think AMD will win this one ... CrossFire has simply blown away SLi in terms of "most improved" over the last year or so.
--i think we will see working quad Crossfire soon .. then Ocoto-Xfire ... ad infinitum ... nvidia doesn't think that far ahead imo.

"Most improved" is kind of a moot point.

Here's where we're at for advantages and disadvantages of each:

SLi Advantages:
1. Allows user to create profiles.
2. Allows user to edit profiles
3. Allows user three default for non profiled (AFR1, AFR2, SFR), ATi only allows AFR at this point. (I think- they used to have tiling as well, but I don't know they still do, or if people consider that a "good" thing given the downsides of tiling)
4. Much larger dev relations program means 90% of big new games launch with SLi profiles, no wait.
5. Better AA modes
6. Better AF
7. Far greater choices for mid range to high end (there actually is no CF "high end" now- only midrange)
8. Quad Sli currently working
9. SliZone Certified Products program allows users to match components they know will work.
10. Hardware AA allows for AA in titles like Bioshock where ATi shader resolve AA doesn't work
11. Superior DX10 performance

Crossfire Advantages:
1. More flexibility matching cards. (this is not an advantage in my opinion because scaling is diminished when a slow and fast card have to have their loads balanced)
2. Multiple monitor support.
3. Ability to use ATi or Intel motherboards.

If anyone disagrees with any of the above, let's discuss.

Edit:
BTW- please don't construe the above as me saying CF is "bad". I agree it's improved much from where it's been and is pretty good now. I just think SLi has more driver flexibility and current NVIDIA GPUs have design advantages. (texture fillrate, not VLIW, not shader resolve AA, etc)

I'm only debating whether ATi is winning the multi GPU battle, I think it's pretty clear they're not.

There are 2 mid range cards from each company NV has both G92 cards (IMO the older GTS cards are basically obsolete and still overpriced) and ATI has the 3850/3870. ATI has high end Xfire its called the 3870x2. NV high end cards are also IMO obsolete (except for tri-SLI) and way over priced. Quad-SLI haha is that finally working now? ATI also has a certified Xfire list. (M/B, memory, PSU, cases and cooling) They also have a list of certified PSU for single cards. (Something I have not been able to find on the NV site) Most of the other points you made are just your opinion aside from the AA/AF.

IMO the only reason SLI scales better IS because the devs spend time to make it scale better. This is not due to the GPUs. If they spent that time working on Xfire and not SLI it would be the opposite. ATI pushing multi GPU card forward with the success they have had might change how devs develop games in the future. I think more people are likely to buy a single Xfire/SLI card rather than 2 separate single GPU cards. With more single GPU Xfire/SLI cards on the market devs are more likely to work on scaling (both SLI and Xfire) during development.

I also think that NV may also not be pushing forward with dual GPU cards as much due the them thinking that NV based M/B sales might drop due to the superior Intel chip sets.

I like both companies. When the GTX was king I wanted one. Now that the X2 is king I want one of those. When the next crown is taken I will want one of them.

 

[BFG10K]

5. Better AA modes

AFAIK nVidia still use fixed AA sample patterns so ATi's super AA modes will be better than nVidia's SLI AA modes. ATi's sample patterns can be changed while all nVidia can do is offset the images which limits their effectiveness.

10. Hardware AA allows for AA in titles like Bioshock where ATi shader resolve AA doesn't work

It has absolutely nothing to do with hardware AA. In fact in theory ATi should be able to force AA in any game since CFAA is a post-filter.

The problem is ATi's laziness to include application workarounds, probably because it makes theirs cards look better if reviewers test without AA.

But it looks like ATi finally have AA is working in UT3 so in theory it should work with other UT3 based games.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: NinjaJedi
IMO the only reason SLI scales better IS because the devs spend time to make it scale better. This is not due to the GPUs. If they spent that time working on Xfire and not SLI it would be the opposite. ATI pushing multi GPU card forward with the success they have had might change how devs develop games in the future.

Actually if you look at some of the recent reviews...XFire actually scales very well...sometimes better than SLI.

 

[Tempered81]

so ati wins for 1 card now.

3870x2 > 8800 Ultra

9800GX2 > 3870x2 maybe?

2 x 8800 Ultra in sli > 3870X2

2 x 3870x2 in crossfire-x > 2 x 8800ultra in sli

2 x 9800gx2 in sli > 2 x 3870x2 in crossfire-x maybe?

3 x 8800 Ultra in Tri-sli > 3870X2 in crossfire-x

4 x 3870x2 on P45 foxconn F1 > 4 x 8800 ultra in quad-sli

4 x 9800gx2 in quad-sli > 4 x 3870x2 on p45 foxconn F1 maybe?

nividia wins, maybe?

edit: haha i just realized after the first comparison, none of that makes sense.
so the real big rig contest now is:

3x 8800ultra VS. 2x 3870x2?

 

[BassBomb]

And here I thought this thread was going to be CMR DiRT performance evaluations