Direct Democracy: does it perpetuate class differences or is it good for the masses?

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
8,645
0
76
www.facebook.com
I'd say it perpetuates class differences because all the lobbyists have to do is give a few voters some perks, and then they vote in the favor of corporate interests. Or, if people don't vote how the corporate interests want people to, then they can send the mob after a few of those people, and let it be a warning to the rest.

I think the proposal to legalize marijuana in CA was defeated because of the mexican drug cartels.

I also think the reason the U.N. promotes democracy is because it is the system for the elites to remain elites.
 

Scotteq

Diamond Member
Apr 10, 2008
5,276
5
0
I don't know - But if I find a Direct Democracy I'll be sure and check on that.
 

wuliheron

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2011
3,536
0
0
A lot of Americans equate democracy with majority rule, but that's a gross over simplification. For example, you can have 2/3 rule or even consensus and its still called democratic decision making. Mob rule is also a form of majority rule, but is not considered democratic. At the very least democracy requires the right to speak your peace before any vote takes place and at least majority rule. Most agree it requires certain traditions and protections for minorities as well.

Because everyone gets to speak and be heard it maximizes the amount of information everyone has to make a decision. Those involved must feel that at least occasionally the process brings forth information valuable enough to justify all the work involved. If not then the process becomes a mere facade for tradition, mob rule, maintaining the status quo, or whatever. Therefore whether people feel personally involved in the process or that the process is fair are both secondary concerns. First and foremost the process must justify itself by producing results that cannot be achieved any other way and that the majority of the group feels is valuable enough to continue using the process.

The hard part is, of course, communicating effectively and listening effectively. All the information in the world will do you no good if you cannot communicate it effectively and people will not listen. This is why most agree that democracy also requires certain traditions and protections for minorities as well. If effective communications break down it can lead to minorities no longer participating in the process until, again, it becomes a facade for something other then a democratic process.
 

AyashiKaibutsu

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2004
9,306
4
81
Direct democracy is pretty much the worst form of government you can think of. At least with a dictatorship or something there's a chance for your ruler to be benevolent. Direct democracy basically guarantees some percentage of your population is going to be oppressed. I guess it's great when you're in the majority though.
 

amyklai

Senior member
Nov 11, 2008
262
8
81
Switzerland has been doing pretty ok with direct democracy. And they still have been able to balance the needs of majorities & minorities, with four different languages (German, French, Italian & Raetoromanian Swiss) and it's been working for a few hundred years now.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Switzerland has been doing pretty ok with direct democracy. And they still have been able to balance the needs of majorities & minorities, with four different languages (German, French, Italian & Raetoromanian Swiss) and it's been working for a few hundred years now.

Clearly, what works for the Swiss should work everywhere.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
The problem is an uneducated voter being sold snake oil and can't know the difference, assuming they are even interested.

I don't understand why you would see this as a bad thing though. You support a system where dangerous drugs should be allowed for sale and letting the "free market" correct the problem. I'd think this would be merely an extension of that idea. Businesses free to maximize their profits. What could be better?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
If you have reasons why it can't work anywhere else, please elaborate.

The Swiss are generally better educated and more sophisticated. Consequently they have a better idea of what the issues are and their consequences. We're idiots.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
The Swiss are generally better educated and more sophisticated. Consequently they have a better idea of what the issues are and their consequences. We're idiots.

Agreed. They also have a much more homogeneous society with strict citizenship requirements. As a result, the government GIVES people assault rifles, and chaos doesn't ensue.

It's really not fair to compare us to the Swiss.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
If you have reasons why it can't work anywhere else, please elaborate.

Demographics, geography, culture/societal values, etc. It doesn't take a genius to figure out an apple is not the same as an orange.
 

amyklai

Senior member
Nov 11, 2008
262
8
81
Switzerland isn't tha homogenous a society. They've got four official languages after all. And culturally, these groups are also distinct.

Also, Switzerland (at least in most Cantons, Glarus is an excetion iirc) doesn't vote on each and every issue. They also have a parliament and and that does a lot or most of the decision-making. But with enough support, it's possible to have a vote on any controversial issue.

What's not to like?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Switzerland isn't tha homogenous a society. They've got four official languages after all. And culturally, these groups are also distinct.

Also, Switzerland (at least in most Cantons, Glarus is an excetion iirc) doesn't vote on each and every issue. They also have a parliament and and that does a lot or most of the decision-making. But with enough support, it's possible to have a vote on any controversial issue.

What's not to like?

Are you an american?
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Switzerland isn't tha homogenous a society. They've got four official languages after all. And culturally, these groups are also distinct.

Also, Switzerland (at least in most Cantons, Glarus is an excetion iirc) doesn't vote on each and every issue. They also have a parliament and and that does a lot or most of the decision-making. But with enough support, it's possible to have a vote on any controversial issue.

What's not to like?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Switzerland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States

~20% of Swiss population is non-Swiss. Of the 20%, ~85% are European. 80+17=97% of the population are white.

U.S. Census Population projections[43]
2010 2050
Whites 79.5% 74.0%
Non-Hispanic Whites 64.7% 46.3%
Hispanics/Latinos (of any race) 16.0% 30.2%
African Americans 12.9% 13.0%
Asian Americans 4.6% 7.8%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Switzerland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_the_United_States

Swiss 15,942 sq mi
US 3,717,813 sq mi

Population
Swiss 2009 estimate 7,785,600
US 2010 census 308,745,538
 

amyklai

Senior member
Nov 11, 2008
262
8
81
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Switzerland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States

~20% of Swiss population is non-Swiss. Of the 20%, ~85% are European. 80+17=97% of the population are white.

U.S. Census Population projections[43]
2010 2050
Whites 79.5% 74.0%
Non-Hispanic Whites 64.7% 46.3%
Hispanics/Latinos (of any race) 16.0% 30.2%
African Americans 12.9% 13.0%
Asian Americans 4.6% 7.8%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Switzerland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_the_United_States

Swiss 15,942 sq mi
US 3,717,813 sq mi

Population
Swiss 2009 estimate 7,785,600
US 2010 census 308,745,538

None of which makes it impossible to hold votes on certain issues.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
None of which makes it impossible to hold votes on certain issues.

It's the canned strawman response whenever someone brings up that somewhere could be/is better/more efficient then the USA.

Just press one to continue, or ignore the machine.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Freedoms are much more important than democracy IMO. Hard to have freedom with a direct democracy since by nature people want to control others.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Freedoms are much more important than democracy IMO. Hard to have freedom with a direct democracy since by nature people want to control others.

Exactly what do the "nature" of people want to control. What is it Zebo you think the masses want?

Jobs? Feeding their family? Which is your problem here? What is wrong with that? And who is really depriving them of this?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
Direct democracy is pretty much the worst form of government you can think of. At least with a dictatorship or something there's a chance for your ruler to be benevolent. Direct democracy basically guarantees some percentage of your population is going to be oppressed. I guess it's great when you're in the majority though.

Well think about it this way. Most of the people you run into in a day are f'ing morons. Do you want them to directly vote on issues? At least a representative of that person, is going to be a little more even keeled as they represent a swath of people with similar, but not exact ideals.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
Exactly what do the "nature" of people want to control. What is it Zebo you think the masses want?

Jobs? Feeding their family? Which is your problem here? What is wrong with that? And who is really depriving them of this?

If you have a large group of people, we will call the Democrats, that want to vote and take another group, we will call them Republicans, money. Why wouldn't they just vote to take their money instead of getting jobs?
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
What we have now can work. The flaw in the design of the current system is the founders didn't take into account how sleazy politicians would become, they thought that people would maintain at least a little decency.

To fix the current government what we need is contracts and penalties. If you run on a platform of no new taxes, then if elected and you add taxes , penalize them. Break enough campaign promises and you are out of office not in two years but right then.
The current system allows for people to say or do anything to get elected then once in office do what they want for 2-4 years with no risk except not getting re-elected. A lot of damage can be done in 2-4 years. We need a clear cut contract saying what a person will do when in office .

Politicians have it easy . Imagine a job where they hire you as a heart surgeon and then you get to sit on your ass all day, watch tv, and do nothing they hired you for and still get paid and you can't be fired for 2-4 years.
 
Last edited: