"digital" is NOT digital

[PurdueRy]

Oh and the toslink max cable length is 10m...it will likely work to farther than that just fine because of engineering tolerances put in. But I think 30 feet is usually more than enough for the average home user. And if its not, use coax! I could care less what connection method people use.

The "it either works or it doesn't" rule is a good rule of thumb for cases where transmission isn't largely degraded by minute negative effects.

 

[tm37]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: BrownTown
If all you are saying is that the digital signals are infact represented by real valued voltages which can be affected in transmission than this is certainly not a big revelation to most here. The whole point though is that given a decent transmission line the distortion can be completely removed. So long as the noise in the distorted signal is not large enough to completely overshadow the actual data then a PERFECT transmission of data can be achieved. With an analog signal this is not possible because it is impossible to separate the noise from the actual signal. OF course you can try your best by modeling the channel be measuring the distortion in known signals and the like, be information is ALWAYS lost given a non trivial data stream.

I'm talking bandwidth and the rise/fall of the signal.

You can't stop the signal.

You can only hope to contain it

 

[Pepsi90919]

Originally posted by: spikespiegal

PCM audio has no error check. It isn't packetzed, but it is framed.

So, what you're saying is you install Windows XP from a vinyl record because CD's don't offer enough fidelity?

Last time I listened to 'Linkin Park' on my home stereo transmitted via toslink from my PC it sounded like Linkin Park and not Britney Spears either.

At some point all those 1's and 0's, be it audio/video, have to be converted back to the analog realm anyways. I leave it up to the designer of the D/A converter to figure out the time domain problems and not the cables or interface connecting my gear dude.

brain...hurts....from ignorance....😕

 

[Eeezee]

Digital is love

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: Eeezee
Digital is love

Oh really? 😛

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Originally posted by: LS20

Originally posted by: George P Burdell
List of everyone who cares:

overloaded my swap file and crashed my computer. please put a warning before you post something so large

Thought my Opteron @ 2.5 GHz + 2GB of ram + 4GB pagefile would handle it, but nope.....

My Raptor came to a screeching halt. =(

 

[blahblah99]

Originally posted by: sdifox
Digital circuit = Analogue circuit that has been castrated to represent only 2 states. And the problem with PCM jitter has nothing to do with "digital". It's a poor implementation of digital transmission. Packet based transmission is not subject to jitter issues. Toslink=Crap, you want optical connection, go AES/EBU or stick to trusted 75ohm 95% braided+foiled RG-59 coax. If you are truly paranoid go RG-6, but good luck on finding RCA connectors that fit.

Digital audio is digital audio. If there is an audio difference in using coax vs. toslink vs aes/ebu connection, then the hardware is implemented differently for each section, or poorly implemented for a section. The poor implementation can be due bad pcb layout, high-jitter oscillator/clock source, poor circuit design, or cheap components, or other factors.

I guarantee that if you use streamed a coax, toslink, or aes/ebu stream from an Audio Precision back into its analyzer, you will not be able to measure a difference between the streams.

The only reason to choose one over the other is what PurdueRy said - for applicational purposes.

 

[Gibson486]

Ummm....I am confused on what this discussion is about....

conversion of digital time to analog time?

digital signal loss over a transmission line?

Analog vs Digital?

Bandwidth issues with in a system?

This is all really Communication Systems Theory stuff......but I am just not certain what we are arguing about here.

 

[spidey07]

We're discussing the "digitial is digital, it either works or it doesn't" mentatlity that is very flawed.

 

[xtknight]

It depends. It is all ones and zeroes. Using video as an example, all the pixels are ones and zeroes, so you either have a pixel or you don't. It's not that the whole picture is a 1 and black is a 0.

OK, obviously a pixel is actually 24-bits, you get my point. You lose one of those bits and you'll get discoloration. But you either have that bit, or you don't. There is no intermediary value. There is no fuzziness in the bit. It just doesn't exist, period.

 

[AgaBoogaBoo]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Overall I think in the VAST majority of cases, there are much bigger issues with people's systems in components, source, setup, and calibration where an issue like this doesn't make enough difference to worry about.

It may very well make a difference, but I don't think this is something significant enough that people should really be worrying about it.

Depending on the source, the dynamic range may be different and therefore compressing the range, aka distortion. Sometimes it can sound nice... turntables 😛

 

[Gibson486]

Originally posted by: spidey07
We're discussing the "digitial is digital, it either works or it doesn't" mentatlity that is very flawed.

well in that case.....

digital is digital in a sense that the bit stream is just 1's and 0's. You can get a cheaper decoder card and a more expensive decoder card and the results will be the same (as in the case of digital video on firewire). However, that is where it all simple stuff ends. It's the method you choose to transmit the information that matters as well as the source and the reciever and you cannot forget the timing to get the information from A to B. With those outside factors, digital certainly is not just digital.

 

[Special K]

Originally posted by: xtknight
It depends. It is all ones and zeroes. Using video as an example, all the pixels are ones and zeroes, so you either have a pixel or you don't. It's not that the whole picture is a 1 and black is a 0.

OK, obviously a pixel is actually 24-bits, you get my point. You lose one of those bits and you'll get discoloration. But you either have that bit, or you don't. There is no intermediary value. There is no fuzziness in the bit. It just doesn't exist, period.

Actually, wouldn't that depend on the noise margins and restorative properties of the circuit in question? Noise can cause a signals value to fall outside the normally defined voltage ranges for logical 0's and 1's. Depending on the restorative properties of the logic path in question, that value may or may not ever drift back into the defined range of 0 or 1. I am not sure what effect that would have on the audio quality in this context, however.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
Overall I think in the VAST majority of cases, there are much bigger issues with people's systems in components, source, setup, and calibration where an issue like this doesn't make enough difference to worry about.

It may very well make a difference, but I don't think this is something significant enough that people should really be worrying about it.

Depending on the source, the dynamic range may be different and therefore compressing the range, aka distortion. Sometimes it can sound nice... turntables 😛

You're saying coax vs optical changes the dynamic range?

 

[FelixDeCat]

Whats the frequency Kenneth!!?

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: edro
Who are you arguing with?

Isn't this common sense?

You'd think.

But there is a mass misinformation amoung most people that "it either works or it doesn't" when it comes to digital transmission. That is what I want to spark the conversation about. I've seen some very good posts on OT that know exactly what I'm talking about but can articulate it much more intelligently than I.

With digital, you can pretty much tell when you have dropped data, since the screen becomes pixelated and there is hesitation. I get this if I wiggle the HDMI cable in my TV.

 

[Midlander]

I've always thought it's a series of 1-.999999... and 0.999999.... :beer: