Digital camera settings for Carlsbad Caverns

[bigboxes]

Ask the title says, going to check out Carlsbad Caverns in New Mexico next week and need some advice on camera settings. I've got a Panasonic DMC-FZ18. I know it's dated, but not old enough that it can't take good pics. I need advice from the experts!

 

[randomrogue]

I've never been there but I have been in caves. They are in absolute darkness. I mean zero light. Photography is painting with light. So in order to take a picture you'll need to bring a flash light with you to "paint" the walls. If there's artificial light in there already I can imagine you'll need to be able to take long exposures so you'll probably want a remote shutter release with you. No clue what your camera is capable of.

 

[cantholdanymore]

If that iz anything like luray caverns in va then they will have some kind on light in there. If that is the case you'll need a tripod to capture that. Usually they position the lights to get the most dramatic view

 

[corkyg]

I've been to several caverns. The newest is Kartchner, a live cave here in southern AZ. They have strict rules - no flash allowed! They do have illumination they turn on and off in the various chambers. I would suggest a monopod and a steady hand. It is a low light environment. This one was with my old Canon D60, and it was shot at f/1.4, at 1/30th sec, ISO 800.

 

[CuriousMike]

With that FZ18, you're going to really struggle.
Your only hope is
a) they have the cave lighted
b) you can bring a mono-pod

Practice by going into your garage on a moonless night and turning on a single 25w lightbulb and take some photos (with flash OFF);
on auto-mode, it might take awhile to get focus.

 

[shortylickens]

1/30s

 

[IronWing]

I was in Carlsbad many moons ago. They did allow tripods and flashes back then. I set up the tripod on a wider spot in the trail, opened the shutter, and walked around flashing formations of interest. It worked pretty well.

 

[slashbinslashbash]

I went to Carlsbad Caverns about a month ago. Assuming you're just going to do the main cavern tour, there is artificial lighting everywhere, and paved paths with handrails.

Their website says that they don't allow tripods, but they actually do. Unfortunately, I did not know this until after I was inside and saw a dude carrying a big tripod around. I had my mini-tripod with me, which I could sit down on benches or other places where there was a convenient flat spot at a decent height for getting a shot, but it definitely wasn't ideal. Mostly, I used my tripod as a chestpod, which worked some of the time. Usually I shot 3-shot bursts, so 1 of the 3 would end up being reasonably sharp.

They do allow lights of all kinds, including camera flashes. So no problem there. But there are some features that are very large and far away, that a P&S flash might not be able to reach.

I will definitely take my full-sized tripod next time, but it would still be less than ideal, especially on a crowded day. The walking path is pretty much the width of a standard sidewalk for the whole thing, and you'll definitely get scolded by the Rangers if you block the path. I was actually thinking that the ideal "tripod" for this location would be some kind of clamp that you could use to grip the ubiquitous hand rails (which all seemed to be metal poles, roughly 2" in diameter). Something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Electric-Avenu.../dp/B001CWF8ES

Here are some photos that I got there. I used my Canon 5D and 24-105 f/4L IS. The ISO was 1600, aperture f/4, shutter speed from 1/8 to 1/2 seconds (most at 0.3 seconds). I wish I had brought my large tripod, or that I had a fast wide-angle prime such as a 28mm f/1.8. None of these are particularly good; they are all pretty blurry when you view at 100%, but at web sizes they look pretty nice.

A few more at the link: http://imgur.com/a/lnQ1a

 

[CrackRabbit]

I did Carlsbad 4 years ago with the same camera you have. Used a tripod and manual mode settings with a 3 second shutter timer, to prevent vibration by pressing the button, and a 5-10 second exposure.
The day I went it wasn't very crowded, rangers didn't hassle me about the tripod and most people were nice enough to wait for me to finish my shots before moving through.
I'm uploading some of the "raw" jpg images to imgur right now and I'll add them to the thread later.
[URL=http://imgur.com/AgGjA5E][/URL]

 

[bigboxes]

Thanks for all the replies. CrackRabbit, do you remember the manual settings that you set the camera to? Having the same camera gives you a lot of experience in the camera's limitations. slashbinslashbash, do you remember if they had railings or not? I've got a clamp mount that would be easier to carry than my big tripod. The reason I say this is that if I was taking the self tour then I would have all day to play around with the settings and in lugging around the big tripod. The more info I have ahead of time the more I can concentrate on the tour and less on the picture taking. I have a habit of letting the camera take over whatever activity I am at. I want to enjoy the tour and be able to help my wife, who most likely will be having some mobility issues.

 

[slashbinslashbash]

Thanks for all the replies. CrackRabbit, do you remember the manual settings that you set the camera to? Having the same camera gives you a lot of experience in the camera's limitations. slashbinslashbash, do you remember if they had railings or not? I've got a clamp mount that would be easier to carry than my big tripod. The reason I say this is that if I was taking the self tour then I would have all day to play around with the settings and in lugging around the big tripod. The more info I have ahead of time the more I can concentrate on the tour and less on the picture taking. I have a habit of letting the camera take over whatever activity I am at. I want to enjoy the tour and be able to help my wife, who most likely will be having some mobility issues.

Yes, the railings are at waist height pretty much everywhere that it is possible to go in the main cavern. Waist height is not necessarily ideal for every shot, but you should be able to make it work. It would definitely be better than my mini-tripod where most of the time my only option was to set it on the floor, which had the limitations of 1) having to get down on hands and knees to set up the shot (although this is a limitation due to my old DSLR; with yours, you will be able to view the screen without having to put your eye in the eyepiece); and 2) A lot of the view is blocked from the floor, either by railings or by cave features on the ground that stick up a few feet in height.

You can see from CrackRabbit's photos how the tripod (and the accompanying proper technique such as using the timer to eliminate vibrations) makes a huge difference. He was able to use lower ISO's, longer shutter speeds, and smaller apertures; all of which improve the image quality. So a relatively cheap yet high quality P&S (I had the DMC-FZ20, and I gave a DMC-FZ3 to my parents, so I like that line of cameras) can get great results with a tripod, compared with my $1500 lens+camera without a tripod.

So I would definitely take either the clamp or the full-sized tripod. The full-sized tripod will give you more flexibility, but the clamp would certainly be a lot smaller, and you should be able to find a place to clamp it almost everywhere.

 

[bigboxes]

Yes, the railings are at waist height pretty much everywhere that it is possible to go in the main cavern. Waist height is not necessarily ideal for every shot, but you should be able to make it work. It would definitely be better than my mini-tripod where most of the time my only option was to set it on the floor, which had the limitations of 1) having to get down on hands and knees to set up the shot (although this is a limitation due to my old DSLR; with yours, you will be able to view the screen without having to put your eye in the eyepiece); and 2) A lot of the view is blocked from the floor, either by railings or by cave features on the ground that stick up a few feet in height.

You can see from CrackRabbit's photos how the tripod (and the accompanying proper technique such as using the timer to eliminate vibrations) makes a huge difference. He was able to use lower ISO's, longer shutter speeds, and smaller apertures; all of which improve the image quality. So a relatively cheap yet high quality P&S (I had the DMC-FZ20, and I gave a DMC-FZ3 to my parents, so I like that line of cameras) can get great results with a tripod, compared with my $1500 lens+camera without a tripod.

So I would definitely take either the clamp or the full-sized tripod. The full-sized tripod will give you more flexibility, but the clamp would certainly be a lot smaller, and you should be able to find a place to clamp it almost everywhere.

I went and got a GorillaPod. It's like a mini tripod with the ability to wrap the legs around whatever (in this case the waist-high railings). So, you do have experience with a camera very similar to my own. What settings (aperture, ISO) do you recommend with the ability to leave the shutter open longer?

 

[slashbinslashbash]

Hmmm, a typical exposure for me was ISO 1600, 1/3 second, f/4. I think that almost everything I shot was within 1 stop of that. Equivalent exposures...

ISO 800, 2/3s, f/4
ISO 400, 1.5s, f/4
ISO 200, 3s, f/4.... this sounds about what I'd go for. Try to keep the max ISO at 200. Maybe aperture to f/5.6 and 6s exposure, still at ISO 200. Or drop the ISO to 100 and double all the exposure times. I'm not too familiar with the FZ18, but I know that on my FZ20 (which I think was older by at least a generation or two) the sensor was getting pretty noisy by ISO 200. Maybe do some tests in a dark room at ISO 100 and ISO 200 with your camera to see if you can tell a big difference.

And definitely use a timer or remote shutter release so that you're not moving the camera by tripping the shutter.

The GorillaPod should be ok with a camera that size. I tried a large one a few years ago, and it just couldn't deal with the weight of my full-frame DSLR and big lenses. But you should be able to get a good grip on the rails with it.

 

[CrackRabbit]

Here is the Exif data from the photos I took:
F-4.5
ISO-100
I may have been using 'night' mode or one of the manual/programmable modes. I honestly can't remember, been too long.
The shutter timer, tripod, long exposure, and disabling the flash were the key to getting the good photos though, if you go through the natural entrance pick a scene and spend a small amount of time experimenting.

One more thing, it looks like I have the FZ-28, same lens and body but larger (10 megapixel) sensor.