Different viewpoints on Israel/Palestine issue

Giscardo

Senior member
May 31, 2000
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First I would like to please say, REFRAIN FROM POSTING ANY ARGUEMENTS IN THIS THREAD!!!

Hi, I am trying to acquaint myself with the Israel/Palestine conflict, and the surrounding issues. I have been reading some pro-Palestinian websites regarding the matter. Also I'm reading Albert Einstein's "Ideas and Opinions" which contains some seemingly pro-Zionist viewpoints, but from reading some of his writings on other topics I get the sense that he is somewhat unorthodox in his thinking, and that his arguments are not the typical pro-Israeli arguments.

So I'm asking for links (I would ask for you guys to provide arguments here but I know that would turn into a flame war instantly) or for suggestions on sources where I can acquire a broader sense of the issue at hand, and then I can take my own stance on the issue. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM ARGUING ABOUT THIS TOPIC IN THIS THREAD.

It would be nice to have some references to sources on both sides of the issue, as well as some unbiased historical breakdowns of the situation. I hope that we can share some sources here for the benefit of all who read.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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well i don't have any good links but i will give you a basic run-down of my understanding and it is stuff that most of the history books don't explain.

way back, b.c., many of the Jewish faith was corrupted paganistic teachings, a.k.a. "the mystery cults of Babylon." while they held onto the concept of a supreme being they also worshiped various idols for various purposes and generally engaged in rather perverse lifestyles, rapping and pillaging outsiders and doing whatever suited their whims with no regard to morality. granted there were still good Jewish people, but many who were not and the society was degrading quickly. after that came Jesus and Mohammad, both of whom made their efforts to reinstall the morality expressed in the Tanak (Old Testament) with their teachings. Jesus didn't get much of a following there in the holy land but Mohammad's teachings caught on better and much of the population became Muslims, this also prompted a revival of traditional Judaism. the Christians were always in the minority there and wound up moving north, as well as the Jews as they became the outsiders; their chose of direction was mostly due to Roman expansion creating interest in such a move and i imagine the fact that the Tanak speaks of god living in the north had a bit do do with it as well.

Christianity caught on big with the hedonistic Romans, i suspect that this has much to do with the Judeo-Christian concepts of salvation; with the Christian concepts of forgiveness being more attractive than the more demanding teachings of Judaism. so the Romans became Christians and spread the faith by whatever means possible while Jewish faith remained a minority, and an oppressed one at that. granted, the Romans were still very much hedonistic and depended heavily on the concept of repentance for acknowledging their immorality while continuing to engage in such actively regularly, eventually leading to the fall of the roman empire. so then there was the dark ages, and eventually the resurrection of the church, along more oppression of the Jewish faith and anything else that stood in the way. stories of the Holy Land, the concept of the second coming of Christ, and stories of the pyramids and the history of humanly led the Christians in power stake their claim as the true "children of god" and reclaim what they convened themselves was theirs "by divine right of god"; hence, the Crusades. so from that point there were battles thought the middle east to control the land which rose up and times and cut back at others, depending on any number of factors thought that time with the European/christans with a rather unquestionable domination the land by the 19th century.

during this time the Jewish people, much of the time pretending to be Christians to avoid oppression and murder, preserved their faith and eventually found tolerance amongst the Christians. also, some of the Jewish people found their ways to positions of influence to the point where they where capable of holding negotiations witch the British Crown in an attempts to secure a reestablishment of a Jewish homeland in the Holy Land, the Zionist movement. however, the Crown was generally unflinching in its position that the messiah was coming soon and that the Christians were "god's chosen people." but then there was the holocaust, which much of the world turned its back to for many years but was fortunately stoped eventually. best i can tell, that atrocity was enough to shock the Crown into realizing the shamefulness of it's own oppression of the Arabic people and the absurdity of their waiting on the messiah to come, so England finally started pulling up stakes in the middle east and assisted the Zionists in the creation of the state of Israel. many Arabic people were not any more pleased about the Zionists running things than they were about any other outsiders; so there was rebellion. sense then it has been a fight for the Arabic people to simply maintain their boarders; as the Israli milltary is much stronger than those that oppose them.

that came out being much longer than i intended, and i left a lot of stuff out in order to keep it short. however, i feel i provided a reasonable overview of the relevant history; and while i am a man of faith i do not subscribe to any particular religion so i am in a position to give a less bias view than many others who like to voice in on the subject. granted i don't claim to know it all by any means, but i do like to learn; so if anyone has anything to add or correct me on, i would appreciate the input.
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,978
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There are many Americans who view alot of the Israeli tactics as terrorism ourselves.


Their is a process in place right now with 4 major backers (some as a group, such as the EU) following a US derived 3 year plan for Palestinian statehood.

The creation of the post of Prime Minister was the first step, with a new cabinent to be named soon. This will create a Palestinian govt. that will be internationally recognized as legitimate. The US has informed Israel that all settlements must be given up and the original lines must be honored. Palestime has agreed to help root out terrorist groups, Syria has an excellent chance to show their desire for Palestinian statehood is sincere and do the same. Having a free Iraq working with SA, Israel, Syria, and PALESTINE would be great for that region. If there is anything the US can do to imporove it's image in the Arab world it is to follow through on our commitment to the Iraqi people and to be at the forefront of the creation of Palestine. Our reining in of Israel shouldn't hurt our cause either.
 

DBL

Platinum Member
Mar 23, 2001
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ROOTS OF THE CONFLICT

* When the United Nations proposed the establishment of two states in the region?one Jewish, one Arab?the Jews accepted the proposal and declared their independence in 1948. The Jewish state constituted only 1/6 of one percent of what was known as "the Arab world." The Arab states, however, rejected the UN plan and since then have waged war against Israel repeatedly, both all-out wars and wars of terrorism and attrition. In 1948, five Arab armies invaded Israel in an effort to eradicate it. Jamal Husseini of the Arab Higher Committee spoke for many in vowing to soak "the soil of our beloved country with the last drop of our blood."

* The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) was founded in 1964?three years before Israel controlled the West Bank and Gaza. The PLO?s declared purpose was to eliminate the State of Israel by means of armed struggle. To this day, the Web site of Yasir Arafat?s Palestinian Authority (PA) claims that the entirety of Israel is "occupied" territory.* It is impossible to square this with the PLO and PA assertions to Western audiences that the root of the conflict is Israel?s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.

* The West Bank and Gaza (controlled by Jordan and Egypt from 1948 to 1967) came under Israeli control during the Six Day War of 1967 that started when Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran and Arab armies amassed on Israel?s borders to invade and liquidate the state. It is important to note that during their 19-year rule, neither Jordan nor Egypt had made any effort to establish a Palestinian state on those lands. Just before the Arab nations launched their war of aggression against the State of Israel in 1967, Syrian Defense Minister (later President) Hafez Assad stated, "Our forces are now entirely ready . . . to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland . . . the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation." On the brink of the 1967 war, Egyptian President Gamal Nassar declared, "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel."

* Because of their animus against Jews, many leaders of the Palestinian cause have long supported our enemies. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem allied himself with Adolf Hitler during WWII. Yasir Arafat, chairman of the PLO and president of the PA, has repeatedly targeted and killed Americans. In 1973, Arafat ordered the execution of Cleo Noel, the American ambassador to the Sudan. Arafat was very closely aligned with the Soviet Union and other enemies of the United States throughout the Cold War. In 1991, during the Gulf War, Arafat aligned himself with Saddam Hussein, whom he praised as "the defender of the Arab nation, of Muslims, and of free men everywhere."

* Israel has, in fact, returned most of the land that it captured during the 1967 war and right after that war offered to return all of it in exchange for peace and normal relations; the offer was rejected. As a result of the 1978 Camp David accords?in which Egypt recognized the right of Israel to exist and normal relations were established between the two countries?Israel returned the Sinai desert, a territory three times the size of Israel and 91 percent of the territory Israel took control of in the 1967 war.

* In 2000, as part of negotiations for a comprehensive and durable peace, Israel offered to turn over all but the smallest portion of the remaining territories to Yasir Arafat. But Israel was rebuffed when Arafat walked out of Camp David and launched the current intifada.

* Yasir Arafat has never been less than clear about his goals?at least not in Arabic. On the very day that he signed the Oslo accords in 1993?in which he promised to renounce terrorism and recognize Israel?he addressed the Palestinian people on Jordanian television and declared that he had taken the first step "in the 1974 plan." This was a thinly-veiled reference to the "phased plan," according to which any territorial gain was acceptable as a means toward the ultimate goal of Israel?s destruction.

* The recently deceased Faisal al-Husseini, a leading Palestinian spokesman, made the same point in 2001 when he declared that the West Bank and Gaza represented only "22 percent of Palestine" and that the Oslo process was a "Trojan horse." He explained, "When we are asking all the Palestinian forces and factions to look at the Oslo Agreement and at other agreements as ?temporary? procedures, or phased goals, this means that we are ambushing the Israelis and cheating them." The goal, he continued, was "the liberation of Palestine from the river to the sea," i.e., the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea?all of Israel.

* To this day, the Fatah wing of the PLO (the "moderate" wing that was founded and is controlled by Arafat himself) has as its official emblem the entire state of Israel covered by two rifles and a hand grenade?another fact that belies the claim that Arafat desires nothing more than the West Bank and Gaza.

* While criticism of Israel is not necessarily the same as "anti-Semitism," it must be remembered that the Middle East press is, in fact, rife with anti-Semitism. More than fifteen years ago the eminent scholar Bernard Lewis could point out that "The demonization of Jews [in Arabic literature] goes further than it had ever done in Western literature, with the exception of Germany during the period of Nazi rule." Since then, and through all the years of the "peace process," things have become much worse. Depictions of Jews in Arab and Muslim media are akin to those of Nazi Germany, and medieval blood libels?including claims that Jews use Christian and Muslim blood in preparing their holiday foods?have become prominent and routine. One example is a sermon broadcast on PA television where Sheik Ahmad Halabaya stated, "They [the Jews] must be butchered and killed, as Allah the Almighty said: ?Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands.? Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them."

* Over three-quarters of Palestinians approve of suicide bombings?an appalling statistic but, in light of the above facts, an unsurprising one.


THE STATE OF ISRAEL

* There are 21 Arab countries in the Middle East and only one Jewish state: Israel, which is also the only democracy in the region.

* Israel is the only country in the region that permits citizens of all faiths to worship freely and openly. Twenty percent of Israeli citizens are not Jewish.

* While Jews are not permitted to live in many Arab countries, Arabs are granted full citizenship and have the right to vote in Israel. Arabs are also free to become members of the Israeli parliament (the Knesset). In fact, several Arabs have been democratically elected to the Knesset and have been serving there for years. Arabs living in Israel have more rights and are freer than most Arabs living in Arab countries.

* Israel is smaller than the state of New Hampshire and is surrounded by nations hostile to her existence. Some peace proposals?including the recent Saudi proposal?demand withdrawal from the entire West Bank, which would leave Israel 9 miles wide at its most vulnerable point.

* The oft-cited UN Resolution 242 (passed in the wake of the 1967 war) does not, in fact, require a complete withdrawal from the West Bank. As legal scholar Eugene Rostow put it, "Resolution 242, which as undersecretary of state for political affairs between 1966 and 1969 I helped produce, calls on the parties to make peace and allows Israel to administer the territories it occupied in 1967 until ?a just and lasting peace in the Middle East? is achieved. When such a peace is made, Israel is required to withdraw its armed forces ?from territories? it occupied during the Six-Day War?not from ?the? territories nor from ?all? the territories, but from some of the territories."

* Israel has, of course, conceded that the Palestinians have legitimate claims to the disputed territories and is willing to engage in negotiations on the matter. As noted above, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered almost all of the territories to Arafat at Camp David in 2000.

* Despite claims that the Israeli settlements in the West Bank are the obstacle to peace, Jews lived there for centuries before being massacred or driven out by invading Arab armies in 1948-49. And contrary to common misperceptions, Israeli settlements?which constitute less than two percent of the territories?almost never displace Palestinians.

* The area of the West Bank includes some of the most important sites in Jewish history, among them Hebron, Bethlehem, and Jericho. East Jerusalem, often cited as an "Arab city" or "occupied territory," is the site of Judaism?s holiest monument. While under Arab rule (1948-67), this area was entirely closed to Jews. Since Israel took control, it has been open to people of all faiths.

* Finally, let us consider the demand that certain territories in the Muslim world must be off-limits to Jews. This demand is of a piece with Hitler?s proclamation that German land had to be "Judenrein" (empty of Jews). Arabs can live freely throughout Israel, and as full citizens. Why should Jews be forbidden to live or to own land in an area like the West Bank simply because the majority of the people are Arab?

In sum, a fair and balanced portrayal of the Middle East will reveal that one nation stands far above the others in its commitment to human rights and democracy as well as in its commitment to peace and mutual security. That nation is Israel.

* The official Palestinian National Authority Web site (pna.org) is currently not operating. Various reports provide different reasons and the Web site should be operating again in the near future.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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it seems reasonably unbiased as far as the discussion of the conflict between the Jewish and Islamic people, but it sure leaves out a lot of the absurd notions and horrible actions of the Christians, granted i don't think the BBC can get away with speaking about the negative aspects of the history of the British Crown.


oh and good show Alistar7, i am glad to see you present an opinion i respect for once. :)
 

iamWolverine

Senior member
May 20, 2001
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You might consider giving "History Of Israeli - Palestinian Conflict" by Tessler . . . certainly not definitive, and should not be your only read, but a decent start . . . being used in a class at UCLA on the subject and promoting peace and dialogue between people on both sides of the conflict here and there. @ amazon
 

fwtong

Senior member
Feb 26, 2002
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All I know is that neither side will be happy until genocide of one people is completed.
 

iamWolverine

Senior member
May 20, 2001
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Just as a forewarning to keep in mind when reading on this or pretty much any other "factual" or "historical" subject . . . understand that there is always a bias in an author's presentation no matter how careful or unbiased they may proclaim to be . . . a bias can arise from any number of things, the most obvious being personal opinion . . . a bias can present itself in the form of the choice of information to present, or the choice of words used in a description (i.e. euphimisims, exaggerations, etc) . . . and then there is also the bias of interpretation of the reader, when you read something you are going to understand it in perhaps a manner radically different than the author's intention. Just a few things to keep in mind . . .
 

iamWolverine

Senior member
May 20, 2001
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Originally posted by: fwtong
All I know is that neither side will be happy until genocide of one people is completed.

Then you truly know nothing, because that most certainly is not the case for the greater majority of peoples. Imagine living through September 11th on a very regular basis and you may have an idea of what these two peoples have experienced for the last 50 years of being caught between governments unable to negotiate to completion and allowing atrocities to continue. It's not pretty on either side, and the live of a Palestinian refugee seems the more tortured of the two, in part because they don't have a "good" governmental system to support them, but the Israeli government does not seem to be truly helping the situation in any way, and has continually destroyed the basis of the meager livelihood of these peoples in bulldozing crop fields, homes, businesses, etc. Foreign policy is a tricky game that governments play, the actions and choices made can come back to haunt them . . . this seems to be something that most people don't understand or are unwilling to accept . . . very similar to the present situation with Iraq . . . while the world over was not very pleased with Saddam being in power, invading a country and having "casualties of war" deemed an acceptable sacrifice is not something that is accepted the world over, no people would want to have that happen to their own country, people or family, but the U.S. administration has very little qualms about committing to this, thinking of the benefits without the consequences, it is very poor judgement. Anyway, I'm going all over the place, so I'm just going to stop there . . .
 

Giscardo

Senior member
May 31, 2000
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Thanks for the warning. I am already quite aware of the impossibility of a source of information being completely unbiased. Pretty annoying thing really. Which is exactly why I am searching for a vast variety of sources.
 

Helenihi

Senior member
Dec 25, 2001
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Snowman's interpretation of history is fairly bad, so I wouldn't take that seriously. The largest errors being the statement that the decision to create Israel was a product of the holocaust (the decision to do so predates it by a couple decades), that christianity caught on big with the romans (patently false, the christians were persecuted for years, Christinaty wasn't the official religion til 300 or thereabouts, a hundred years before the split), and that the crusades were a complete religious action. They had as much to do with fears of the expanding Muslim empire as with a religious conquest of the holy land(though that could mobilize soldiers who might not fight for other causes).

DBL's post is pretty much accurate though a bit one-sided.

Didn't read the BBC link, they're generally pretty good, though European press in general tends to lean toward the Palestinians. Somewhere I've got a series of Frontline episodes about the conflict, they're pretty good, maybe I'll stick them up on my webspace. They're kinda big though, if you have a chance to watch them or get them somewhere else I'd advise doing so.
 

cpumaster

Senior member
Dec 10, 2000
708
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you know the thing was there is no natural boundaries that separate Palestine from Israel, why don't they just dig some kind of canal around Israel from sea to sea, and one day when all their conflicts are resolved or when they missed each other, they can built a bridge over it?
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
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what are you talking about Helenihi? sure the Zionist movement started well before the holocaust, as i mentioned; but the British Crown was not very helpful about things until afterwords, like i said. also, yes the Romans were not accepting of Christianity at first but Constantine changed all that, and that is the Roman era i am referring to. also, sure the Muslim empire was expanding but that does not change the fact that the Crusaders justified their own conquests by a self proclaimed divine right. honestly, i did not include every little detail as i obviously don't everything anyway, let alone have the time to type all of what i do know out; but i made an honest effort to summarize it to the best of my ability and i don't see where you get off chastising me for it with such weak arguments.
 

LilBlinbBlahIce

Golden Member
Dec 31, 2001
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Originally posted by: Alistar7

There are many Americans who view alot of the Israeli tactics as terrorism ourselves.


Their is a process in place right now with 4 major backers (some as a group, such as the EU) following a US derived 3 year plan for Palestinian statehood.

The creation of the post of Prime Minister was the first step, with a new cabinent to be named soon. This will create a Palestinian govt. that will be internationally recognized as legitimate. The US has informed Israel that all settlements must be given up and the original lines must be honored. Palestime has agreed to help root out terrorist groups, Syria has an excellent chance to show their desire for Palestinian statehood is sincere and do the same. Having a free Iraq working with SA, Israel, Syria, and PALESTINE would be great for that region. If there is anything the US can do to imporove it's image in the Arab world it is to follow through on our commitment to the Iraqi people and to be at the forefront of the creation of Palestine. Our reining in of Israel shouldn't hurt our cause either.


One of the few times I agree with you.
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
81
Well, as long as nobody else is bothering to add links, I guess this topic is fair game for "discussion".

As far as more modern developments are concerned, I can't get past this terrorism BS. The so called "Israeli tactics" are retaliatory 95% of the time. Suit yourselves, but I could NEVER make excuses for the terrorism displayed by the Palestinians. Never.
 

fwtong

Senior member
Feb 26, 2002
695
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81
Originally posted by: iamWolverine
Originally posted by: fwtong
All I know is that neither side will be happy until genocide of one people is completed.

Then you truly know nothing, because that most certainly is not the case for the greater majority of peoples. Imagine living through September 11th on a very regular basis and you may have an idea of what these two peoples have experienced for the last 50 years of being caught between governments unable to negotiate to completion and allowing atrocities to continue. It's not pretty on either side, and the live of a Palestinian refugee seems the more tortured of the two, in part because they don't have a "good" governmental system to support them, but the Israeli government does not seem to be truly helping the situation in any way, and has continually destroyed the basis of the meager livelihood of these peoples in bulldozing crop fields, homes, businesses, etc. Foreign policy is a tricky game that governments play, the actions and choices made can come back to haunt them . . . this seems to be something that most people don't understand or are unwilling to accept . . . very similar to the present situation with Iraq . . . while the world over was not very pleased with Saddam being in power, invading a country and having "casualties of war" deemed an acceptable sacrifice is not something that is accepted the world over, no people would want to have that happen to their own country, people or family, but the U.S. administration has very little qualms about committing to this, thinking of the benefits without the consequences, it is very poor judgement. Anyway, I'm going all over the place, so I'm just going to stop there . . .


I'm merely stating the obvious, there never will be peace between them. One of them is going to have to go. Sometimes, I think that they in some truely perverse way, the leadership of both sides enjoys confrontation. They know exactly what to do to piss the other side off, then do it anyways.
 

LilBlinbBlahIce

Golden Member
Dec 31, 2001
1,837
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Originally posted by: fwtong
Originally posted by: iamWolverine
Originally posted by: fwtong
All I know is that neither side will be happy until genocide of one people is completed.

Then you truly know nothing, because that most certainly is not the case for the greater majority of peoples. Imagine living through September 11th on a very regular basis and you may have an idea of what these two peoples have experienced for the last 50 years of being caught between governments unable to negotiate to completion and allowing atrocities to continue. It's not pretty on either side, and the live of a Palestinian refugee seems the more tortured of the two, in part because they don't have a "good" governmental system to support them, but the Israeli government does not seem to be truly helping the situation in any way, and has continually destroyed the basis of the meager livelihood of these peoples in bulldozing crop fields, homes, businesses, etc. Foreign policy is a tricky game that governments play, the actions and choices made can come back to haunt them . . . this seems to be something that most people don't understand or are unwilling to accept . . . very similar to the present situation with Iraq . . . while the world over was not very pleased with Saddam being in power, invading a country and having "casualties of war" deemed an acceptable sacrifice is not something that is accepted the world over, no people would want to have that happen to their own country, people or family, but the U.S. administration has very little qualms about committing to this, thinking of the benefits without the consequences, it is very poor judgement. Anyway, I'm going all over the place, so I'm just going to stop there . . .


I'm merely stating the obvious, there never will be peace between them. One of them is going to have to go. Sometimes, I think that they in some truely perverse way, the leadership of both sides enjoys confrontation. They know exactly what to do to piss the other side off, then do it anyways.

It's arrogance on both sides as well as hardliners. Get rid of the ultra right wingers on both sides and there might be some progress.