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Different idea to turn the economy around

Saw this on the WSJ forums and thought it was interesting.

As the world?s most inventive country we have the unique opportunity to ?patent? our way out of the current recession and thieve in the 21st century global economy. It?s time to leverage what we do best, innovate, and create the jobs we need for today, tomorrow, and decades to come. Entrepreneurial Incentives would make a positive contribution ? In the short run we should help finance innovative ideas in all areas, including green technology, telecommunications, biotechnology, nanotechnology and all other embryonic inventions that will improve our lives. Since so much capital is sitting on the sidelines in Treasury Bills, let?s suspend future capital gains tax on any investment that is made in new technology between February 15th and October 30th 2009. We have absolutely nothing to lose. If capital stays on the sidelines we will create no jobs and collect no additional taxes. If, however, the money is invested, we could create hundreds of thousands of permanent jobs and collect income taxes from every employee rather than paying them unemployment benefits. Yes, we can create jobs without spending the taxpayer?s money and simultaneously help all those budding entrepreneurs currently starving for capital.

To me this makes much more sense that going even further in debt for an idea that we aren't sure will work but will put a huge strain on all of us for years and years to come and possibly send inflation through the roof. And this is assuming that the recession is something that even needs to be fought. The recession might be viewed as not the problem but the cure, and the overinflated, inefficient economy that we had was what needed to be dealt with.

I just don't believe that throwing enormous sums of money around trying to reinflate it to unrealistic levels should be our goal, and we need to be thinking more long term. The politicians in Washington seem to be only concerned with the short term and stopping the job loss. Case in point, the Buy American clauses going around. This will more than likely cause retaliation and trade wars, disrupt global trade tremendously, and do far more harm both here and abroad. Do they care? It saves American jobs (and causes us to lose many, many more)!Well if the jobs are not economical, then they should go. We can build all of the infrastructure we want, create thousands of new jobs, and then what? Have we done anything sustainable? When the roads are finished are we back to square one? And how much did one of these newly created jobs cost us?

Each dollar we spend is a dollar that we will eventually have to pay. That dollar is being taken out of a taxpayers pocket and given to someone else in order to stimulate the economy. We should only hope that our return is greater with where the assets are now being allocated, compared to what the taxpayer would have invested it in. Lord knows the government is good at handling money and investing it wisely. But maybe all of the spending actually will stimulate ourselves out of the recession and hopefully into a leaner, meaner position than the one we occupied before. Hopefully the gains from it will offset the burdens it will bring.
 
We don't want to innovate we want the government to give us our daily bread. They will take care of us! They know what is better for us. They are Brilliant econmic minds that are moral, loyal and completely trusted. They should take our tax dollars and give them to others w/o having to declare theirs! Elites must Rule Us!
 
Originally posted by: EXman
We don't want to innovate we want the government to give us our daily bread. They will take care of us! They know what is better for us. They are Brilliant econmic minds that are moral, loyal and completely trusted. They should take our tax dollars and give them to others w/o having to declare theirs! Elites must Rule Us!

Yes. Thinking is hard.
 
I've been thinking a government funded venture capital fund would work better than the current stimulus. But it would probably take too long to deploy.
 
Originally posted by: between
everyone is an economist now, right? let's just ignore that nobel-prize winning economists say the stimulus package is essential (and is probably in fact too small) - we know better, right?

Nobel Prize winning economist were around the last few times and didn't save us.
 
Originally posted by: RichardE
Originally posted by: between
everyone is an economist now, right? let's just ignore that nobel-prize winning economists say the stimulus package is essential (and is probably in fact too small) - we know better, right?

Nobel Prize winning economist were around the last few times and didn't save us.

i might be wrong, but the last major economic catastrophe is was an economist that stopped it.
 
Originally posted by: UglyCasanova...As the world?s most inventive country we have the unique opportunity to ?patent? our way out of the current recession and thieve in the 21st century global economy. It?s time to leverage what we do best...

Brilliant!
 
Our education system is not pumping out enough talents for innovation. A large part of our population/talents are working in things like litigation and "wealth creation" aka financial engineering which isn't creating us anything.

Go to any grad school in America, where a lot of the innovations are happening, and you'll see that most are not American students. I know. I'm in grad school.
 
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Our education system is not pumping out enough talents for innovation. A large part of our population/talents are working in things like litigation and "wealth creation" aka financial engineering which isn't creating us anything.

Go to any grad school in America, where a lot of the innovations are happening, and you'll see that most are not American students. I know. I'm in grad school.

Likewise. That is what I see on a daily basis. (also a grad student - mathematician) We can still attract the best and brightest (for now) from other countries, but it doesn't seem to be the case over here. Innovation and research just doesn't pay, and there aren't enough slots open in private industry OR in academia. Removing the capital gains tax won't help in that area, and I suspect the WSJ is kind of biased in that area, as its readers and owners really rake in a lot of capital gains income. (Personally, I think it should be counted and taxed as any regular income, but thats for another thread)

American students all seem to want to go into law, finance, or medicine, usually for the money. Those going into the real innovative fields (Engineering, Chemistry, Mathematics, Earth Sciences, etc.) don't do it for the money. Heck, most of us would be happy to make a modest living so we can continue doing what we love for the advance of knowledge. What is needed is what another member said - a government venture capital firm for research and development. We effectively already have this in the form of federal grants, but that really doesn't do enough to follow up the R&D to actual mass production. We need to pay teachers/professors/researchers more so we can attract more of our own best/brightest back into these fields.
 
Originally posted by: between
everyone is an economist now, right? let's just ignore that nobel-prize winning economists say the stimulus package is essential (and is probably in fact too small) - we know better, right?

I put economists up there with fortune tellers. It ain't a science until it has predictive ability...which economics has yet to demonstrate.

Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Likewise. That is what I see on a daily basis. (also a grad student - mathematician) We can still attract the best and brightest (for now) from other countries, but it doesn't seem to be the case over here. Innovation and research just doesn't pay, and there aren't enough slots open in private industry OR in academia. Removing the capital gains tax won't help in that area, and I suspect the WSJ is kind of biased in that area, as its readers and owners really rake in a lot of capital gains income. (Personally, I think it should be counted and taxed as any regular income, but thats for another thread)

American students all seem to want to go into law, finance, or medicine, usually for the money. Those going into the real innovative fields (Engineering, Chemistry, Mathematics, Earth Sciences, etc.) don't do it for the money. Heck, most of us would be happy to make a modest living so we can continue doing what we love for the advance of knowledge. What is needed is what another member said - a government venture capital firm for research and development. We effectively already have this in the form of federal grants, but that really doesn't do enough to follow up the R&D to actual mass production. We need to pay teachers/professors/researchers more so we can attract more of our own best/brightest back into these fields.


It seems appropriate to post this article from another thread.

I admit that I have somewhat of a personal stake in the matter, but it doesn't make any sense to me that execs are raking in the money for making incompetent business decisions (and their salaries are hotly defended by many on P&N), while post-docs / budding scientists subside on Ramen noodles and seminar snacks as they push forward the newest and most promising ideas on the planet.
 
That's not a bad idea at all, but it does not replace the Need for Stimulus now. It's a good Mid-to-Long Range plan.
 

In other words--we should innovate our way out of this. The problem is that Americans don't have a monopoly on innovation and creativity; it's a racist notion. Furthermore, since so much manufacturing and knowledge-based work has been moved overseas and since we're trained our competitors by training foreign grad students at our universities, much innovation will come from foreign countries.

It's a nice, touchy-feely solution that sounds good and avoids having to address foreign outsourcing, H-1B visas, and mass immigration, but sadly it's not going to solve our real economic problems.
 
Originally posted by: alphatarget1
Our education system is not pumping out enough talents for innovation. A large part of our population/talents are working in things like litigation and "wealth creation" aka financial engineering which isn't creating us anything.

Go to any grad school in America, where a lot of the innovations are happening, and you'll see that most are not American students. I know. I'm in grad school.

Many smart people realize that obtaining scientific training just doesn't pay off:

------------

"Adjusted for IQ, quantitative skills, and working hours, jobs in science are the lowest paid in the United States."

http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science

Here's another interesting bit:

For whom does academic science as a career make sense?

...

Does this make sense as a career for anyone? Absolutely! Just get out your atlas.

Imagine that you are a smart, but impoverished, young person in China. Your high IQ and hard work got you into one of the best undergraduate programs in China. The $1800 per month graduate stipend at University of Nebraska or University of Wisconsin will afford you a much higher standard of living than any job you could hope for in China. The desperate need for graduate student labor and lack of Americans who are interested in PhD programs in science and engineering means that you'll have no trouble getting a visa. When you finish your degree, a small amount of paperwork will suffice to ensure your continued place in the legal American work force. Science may be one of the lowest paid fields for high IQ people in the U.S., but it pays a lot better than most jobs in China or India.
 
Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

In other words--we should innovate our way out of this. The problem is that Americans don't have a monopoly on innovation and creativity; it's a racist notion. Furthermore, since so much manufacturing and knowledge-based work has been moved overseas and since we're trained our competitors by training foreign grad students at our universities, much innovation will come from foreign countries.

It's a nice, touchy-feely solution that sounds good and avoids having to address foreign outsourcing, H-1B visas, and mass immigration, but sadly it's not going to solve our real economic problems.

Grad students from abroad live in the U.S. and become U.S. citizens at a staggeringly high rate. Their innovation in universities are used to fuel American projects, so save for the rare espionage case, they are contributing directly to American products via their knowledge and creativity.
 
Originally posted by: EvanGrad students from abroad live in the U.S. and become U.S. citizens at a staggeringly high rate. Their innovation in universities are used to fuel American projects, so save for the rare espionage case, they are contributing directly to American products via their knowledge and creativity.

Sometimes that's the case and other times they return to their home countries to innovate back home. Perhaps a small percentage of them could not be replaced by equally intelligent and innovative Americans. I can see how it might benefit us to let the very brightest of the foreigners in and to give them citizenship but that would be a much smaller number than the amount we bring in to work at the university science mills today.
 
Originally posted by: between
everyone is an economist now, right? let's just ignore that nobel-prize winning economists say the stimulus package is essential (and is probably in fact too small) - we know better, right?

And other Nobel candidates say that it might not be such a good idea after all. link Certainly not all economist are in agreement that the stimulus will work.

Example of the waste that we will be getting. For 900 billion dollars, we should be demanding so much more for our money.
 
On some level, the idea will help. I'm currently working 30% of my time (unpaid) at a start up company. We have great ideas, successful results, and are just about ready to start selling the product, but no cash to move forward. We've tried but investors won't touch us or anyone else with a 10 foot poll. Getting even a small investment into this company will create jobs.

That said, though, the impact will be small. The OP's quote predicts hundreds of thousands of jobs, but we just lost nearly 4 million jobs. Heck, we lost 600,000 last month alone. Private investment won't suffice.

This plan ultimately is just a small tax cut for the wealthy (only the wealthy really have the money for investments, and capital gains taxes on startups aren't that high anyways). We already have a large tax cut for the wealthy (Bush's tax cuts are now in full effect) and you can see where that got us. Cutting taxes on the wealthy doesn't really stimulate the economy since they often just sit on the sidelines with their extra money. Even with this prosed captital gains tax cut, nothing says that ANY extra investment will occur. They still may sit on their cash wads to ride out the bad economy.

We could do something similar though. Government grants currently allow the money to be spent on R&D but not on marketing, not on manufacturing, not on IP protection, etc. So, a new startup can get a grant to do all the development work, but then the money is cut off and they are left dangling in the wind. The government could very quickly and very easilly set up a process where the government grant money could be used for actual production. And that is where the bulk of the jobs will be. With government spending, it'll actually happen whereas the wealthy may choose not to invest. Heck, match government grants with private investments and private investors will double the impact of their money - that is far better for the small company and far better for the investor than a small tax cut.
 
Stop trying to centrally plan the allocation of stolen capital. Leave the money in the hands of its earner and they'll do the rest. The industrial revolution happened with gold money, no Fed, no welfare, and no income taxes. There was no price fixing, lobbying, or tax code manipulation going on to make people as irrational as they are today.
 
Originally posted by: BansheeX
Stop trying to centrally plan the allocation of stolen capital. Leave the money in the hands of its earner and they'll do the rest. The industrial revolution happened with gold money, no Fed, no welfare, and no income taxes. There was no price fixing, lobbying, or tax code manipulation going on to make people as irrational as they are today.

lol, I love how you connect the appearance of the IR to not having a Fed, as if that proved not having one is better. How much better would the IR have been if there was a stable monetary system that kept things liquid?

Have yet to see "price fixing".

 
Since so much capital is sitting on the sidelines in Treasury Bills, let?s suspend future capital gains tax on any investment that is made in new technology between February 15th and October 30th 2009. We have absolutely nothing to lose. If capital stays on the sidelines we will create no jobs and collect no additional taxes.

Not a bad idea.

I think it might get more money in the economy quicker. Of course, some gov money is probably still needed to support theunemployed and maybe prop up states that are in trouble.

My one suggestion would be that not only are cap gains not taxed (or low taxed), but losses are deductible at ordinary rates. You get a win-win for coming off the sidelines to invest.

Fern
 
IMO, we need to be investing more money in researching healthcare efficiency(IOW, researching ways to reduce costs), not new ways to keep so and so's 80 year old grandpa alive another 2 years at 50k+ a pop.

Of course, this will never happen because it will mean lower profits for everyone in the healthcare industry. :-/
 
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