Differences between SeaMonkey and Pale Moon

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
59,071
9,481
126
Seamonkey isn't really like PaleMoon. It's in the family, but different none the less. Try, and see what you think. Maybe you'll like differences, maybe not. The biggest difference is many addons aren't compatible with Seamonkey. Some can be made to work, but not all of them.
 

code65536

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2006
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Back before Mozilla, in the days of Netscape 4, the fad was to have a big all-in-one package. The Netscape 4 Communicator suite was a browser, an e-mail client, a newsgroup reader, and a WYSIWYG HTML editor, all rolled up into one big happy package.

So when Netscape gave way to Mozilla, things started out as a single big program that did everything and had a gazillion different features and options all rolled into one. It was called the Mozilla Suite, and for a while, the Suite was Mozilla's flagship product.

Then a group of developers decided to create a new project called Phoenix (because it's Mozilla reborn) where they took Suite and started to strip out everything that wasn't related to the browser (so no e-mail client, no editor, etc.), simplified the UI (hacked out a ton of menu items, simplified the options, etc.).

Phoenix uses the exact same core/engine (Gecko) as Suite--Mozilla products run using the same core rendering engine that is used for web content. That user interface that you see? It's laid out using a markup language like XUL (not unlike Microsoft's XAML, and both bear resemblances to HTML), styled using CSS, and programmed using JavaScript. This is why Mozilla is so naturally cross-platform, since its UI widgets are all done by Gecko and are naturally OS-independent (though there is skinning to match the OS style; I had worked on code in Gecko that uses the raw widget drawing APIs in Windows to render things like buttons in the native OS style).

And along the way, they also developed a framework that ran atop the engine, that they appropriately (and not too cleverly) called "toolkit". Anyway, early versions of Phoenix was just a crudely-hacked-down version of Suite, but with each successive version, toolkit was further developed, more vestigial Suite code was removed, and more of the roughness was polished down.

Along the way, they ran into trademark issues, so Phoenix was renamed Firebird. And around that time, the old mail/newsgroup from Suite (that was cut out of Phoenix) was spun into a separate program of its own, called Thunderbird, also using the same toolkit that Firebird used. Fire/Thunderbird was codenamed Aviary (both birds).

Eventually, they ran into trademark issues again, so they decided to go wild with the name and pick something with no chance of running into a trademark issue, so Firebird became Firefox, but Thunderbird remained a bird, and the overall project was still codename Aviary.

Anyway, by cutting away all the non-browser features of Suite, Firefox was much smaller than Suite and started up faster. The UI was cleaner and tidier, and it became popular. Suite remained the favorite of some die-hard power users who liked having a gazillion features, but Mozilla Suite was never popular, and was never a challenge to IE.

Eventually, Mozilla made Firefox its flagship product and abandoned Suite, because, let's face it, most people didn't like Suite. Had Firefox never been developed and Mozilla kept using Suite, we might still be seeing 90+% IE market share today--that's how little traction Suite was getting. (And before you mention WebKit, the lead dev on WebKit was one of the original Phoenix developers that Apple poached from Mozilla, and the lead on Chrome was the Firefox lead dev that Google poached from Mozilla after Firefox 2.) Suite was then picked up by the community, renamed to Seamonkey, and its development has continued. With Seamonkey 2.0, they switched to Toolkit (the framework used by Firefox/Thunderbird), but SM is still the big hulking suite with lots of features. But since all the new features (like, say, the download manager) are being developed on Firefox, they need to backport a lot to keep features updated or to add new features (which is why they eventually went to Toolkit).

Now, keep in mind that the core (Gecko--the rendering engine, the JavaScript engine, basically anything in the code base written in C/C++) is, has been, and always will be the exact same between Seamonkey and Firefox. The difference is in the UI that runs atop that engine. Similarly, Australis is a change in the UI that runs atop that engine. Pale Moon, too, uses the same engine. Heck, even Thunderbird's engine is identical. Gecko isn't forked--all this forking and happens in the layer that sits above the engine.

So what is Seamonkey? It's basically the old-school everything-plus-the-kitchen-sink suite. With modern hardware, its bloatedness doesn't hurt as much (remember, the Seamonkey-Firefox split happened over a decade ago). It lags behind Firefox because there aren't as many developers, features that they want have to be backported from Firefox, and sometimes things are a little incomplete.

Pale Moon, however is basically Firefox. With some relatively minor (at least compared to Seamonkey) UI changes.
 
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Revolution 11

Senior member
Jun 2, 2011
952
79
91
That was a very interesting write up about the history of Firefox/Seamonkey. I remember watching the Netscape logo twirl as the page loads, what a big difference to today's browsers.

My question had more to do with if Seamonkey's UI was closer to the earlier Firefox UI or Netscape even? It's good to keep options open if Pale Moon development ever veers off the wrong path or stops.
 

code65536

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2006
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0
76
UI-wise, Suite/Seamonkey adhere, in spirit, to the old Netscape Communications Suite. I say "in spirit" because the old Netscape code was basically scrapped and Mozilla Suite was built pretty much from scratch.

Although Phoenix started out as a stripping-down of Suite, by the time we got to Firefox 1.0, it was pretty much a complete re-do of the interface (still running on the same Gecko engine, of course). Firefox and Seamonkey were never that much alike, except that they share the same rendering engine and some UI components are the same (like the download manager or the addon manager, after Seamonkey adopted Toolkit).

Also, what do you mean by "earlier Firefox"? The last big interface overhaul was Firefox 4, and Firefox 4 is closer to the new Australis than it is to Seamonkey. But if you're comparing against Firefox 2 or maybe 3, I guess those would be closer to Seamonkey than they would be to the new Australis. But there's still a pretty wide gap between SM and Firefox.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
121
got me I used to use Pale Moon X64 and stopped many months back as was just doing a few things I didn't like personally.
 

Chiefcrowe

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2008
5,052
195
116
Thanks for that history code65536, i didn't know some of that stuff. very interesting! Did you work with one of those teams? just curious...
 

etrigan420

Golden Member
Oct 30, 2007
1,723
1
81
Can you pls offer examples of what PM was doing you didnt like?

I'm using it now and have a couple of niggles...

When I play a video, whether it be via YouTube, LiveLeak, CNN, or any other source, the video will play for 5-15 seconds with *no video*, just audio. Doesn't do it *every* time...which probably bothers me more than if it did...

Pages also *feel* like they're loading slower than with Firefox, IE11, Opera, or Chrome.

I haven't done any quantitative analysis of how fast everything actually loads, and frankly, with the plethora of viable alternatives, can't really be bothered to look into the video issue.

The only thing Pale Moon seems to offer is moderately increased security, but Chrome. Just. Works., and if I'm worried about privacy, I'll load Tor.

EDIT: I'll third the thanks to code65536. :)
 
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bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
12,248
3
0
That was a very interesting write up about the history of Firefox/Seamonkey. I remember watching the Netscape logo twirl as the page loads, what a big difference to today's browsers.

My question had more to do with if Seamonkey's UI was closer to the earlier Firefox UI or Netscape even? It's good to keep options open if Pale Moon development ever veers off the wrong path or stops.

Judging from Palemoon's front page, it seems like its a goal to maintain familiar interface and have competitive customization if its not the way you want by default.

judging from that, plus the better extension support, and lighter nature (less bloat) seems like the obvious choice would be to go for Palemoon, although since both are free there's not much stopping you from trying them both.
 

Revolution 11

Senior member
Jun 2, 2011
952
79
91
To be clear, I find Pale Moon to be fantastic, the same kind of flawless browsing experience that I experienced with Firefox 3.0, my first entry into Mozilla products. PM is stable, fast, and clean for me. I am very disappointed with Firefox 4-28 in this because they have abandoned a style of browser UI that they championed and promoted.

etrigan, PM should not be doing that at all, you are having issues with Flash, PM, or your system in general.
 

bunnyfubbles

Lifer
Sep 3, 2001
12,248
3
0
Mozilla has to develop the product to "sell", if they stuck to their "values" they might have kept developing Mozilla Suite (which, as a browser, was pretty much just as good as Pheonix/Firebird/and early versions of FireFox) and we never would have seen them take off like they have thanks to FireFox

So I understand that they feel a need to keep modernizing and make the browser all shiny and what not to keep appealing to the masses...

that being said, being free and open sourced means we can have forks like PaleMoon and SeaMonkey so that we can have the choice should the development stray in a direction we might not care for
 

Virgorising

Diamond Member
Apr 9, 2013
4,470
0
0
Mozilla has to develop the product to "sell", if they stuck to their "values" they might have kept developing Mozilla Suite (which, as a browser, was pretty much just as good as Pheonix/Firebird/and early versions of FireFox) and we never would have seen them take off like they have thanks to FireFox

So I understand that they feel a need to keep modernizing and make the browser all shiny and what not to keep appealing to the masses...

that being said, being free and open sourced means we can have forks like PaleMoon and SeaMonkey so that we can have the choice should the development stray in a direction we might not care for

Yes, Mozilla became Faust. As did MS with Windows 8. Life is an opgoing litmus test: is yr soul for sale or is it not?

Go Pale Moon!!!
 
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Virgorising

Diamond Member
Apr 9, 2013
4,470
0
0
I'm using it now and have a couple of niggles... When I play a video, whether it be via YouTube, LiveLeak, CNN, or any other source, the video will play for 5-15 seconds with *no video*, just audio. Doesn't do it *every* time...which probably bothers me more than if it did... Pages also *feel* like they're loading slower than with Firefox, IE11, Opera, or Chrome.

Jus caught this, and I thank you for sharing the specifics. I gotta say, never in my life have I ever experienced any of that!

Hard to believe it's PM indigenous.

When U ran FX did ALL these issues present? U did say pages loaded normally with FX, how about the video issues???