Difference in UHC around the world

[Athena]

Originally posted by: Phokus
blackangst posted an article about america's deficit, not taiwan's, that's why he's utterly confused. if he had bothered to read the article all the way through, he would know that.

To think that taiwan, whose 2008 GDP was 400 billion would have a 1 trillion dollar deficit in 2009 is absurd :roll:

Talk about being led off a cliff!

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
Also Taiwan cost of living is a lot less than USA.

That's why international comparisons generally use percentage of GDP rather than actual costs.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Check out Taiwan's debt some time since institutiong their current plan. Hits a trillion this year, and growing. Sounds like a fantastic plan to me

Whose butt you pull that number out of?

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library/pu...-factbook/geos/tw.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tw.html">https://www.cia.gov/libr.........k/geos/tw.html</a></a>

GDP (purchasing power parity):
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
$738.8 billion (2008 est.)
Public debt:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
30.9% of GDP (2008 est.)

30.9% of $738.8B = $230B

http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/e...=1002521&lang=eng_news

Bwahahaha, I think you are a little confused.....the article is talking about the US, not Taiwan. I don't believe Taiwans is paying for wars in Iraq and Afghan.

Taiwan have a strick policy to watch the healthcare spending closely. That's why it's able to keep it 6% of GDP, vs I believe 15% for the US, one of the highest in the world.

As a long time tax payer in US and 2 US citizen kids, I really hope US start to seriously review the cost in every segment of the entire healthcare mega industry. It's not just the insurance, the hospital cost is ridiculous, the pharma. companies wields tremendous power in controlling prices.

The reason some of these other countries is able to control cost is to reduce the complexity of the system withh single payer. and with more centralized system, able to negotiate better price with providers of the healthcare services. Right now the US healthcare is just too fragmented, to complex to understand where the real issue is, and to have a central power to do anything about it.

 

[bbdub333]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Check out Taiwan's debt some time since institutiong their current plan. Hits a trillion this year, and growing. Sounds like a fantastic plan to me

Whose butt you pull that number out of?

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library......tbook/geos/tw.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library/pu...-factbook/geos/tw.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tw.html">https://www.cia.gov/l............os/tw.html</a></a></a>

GDP (purchasing power parity):
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
$738.8 billion (2008 est.)
Public debt:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
30.9% of GDP (2008 est.)

30.9% of $738.8B = $230B

http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/e...=1002521<=eng_news

Bwahahaha, I think you are a little confused.....the article is talking about the US, not Taiwan. I don't believe Taiwans is paying for wars in Iraq and Afghan.

Taiwan have a strick policy to watch the healthcare spending closely. That's why it's able to keep it 6% of GDP, vs I believe 15% for the US, one of the highest in the world.

As a long time tax payer in US and 2 US citizen kids, I really hope US start to seriously review the cost in every segment of the entire healthcare mega industry. It's not just the insurance, the hospital cost is ridiculous, the pharma. companies wields tremendous power in controlling prices.

The reason some of these other countries is able to control cost is to reduce the complexity of the system withh single payer. and with more centralized system, able to negotiate better price with providers of the healthcare services. Right now the US healthcare is just too fragmented, to complex to understand where the real issue is, and to have a central power to do anything about it.

You are also ignoring the fact that a lot of these countries are benefiting from US health care spending, allowing them to take advantage of technologies and drugs at a far lesser cost than Americans who are basically financing the advancements. So as stated in my first post... how would America switching to a UHC model affect the systems of countries around the world which may not spend that much on research and development?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: bbdub333

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Check out Taiwan's debt some time since institutiong their current plan. Hits a trillion this year, and growing. Sounds like a fantastic plan to me

Whose butt you pull that number out of?

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/libr.........k/geos/tw.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library......tbook/geos/tw.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library/pu...-factbook/geos/tw.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tw.html">https://www.cia.gov/l............w.html</a></a></a></a>

GDP (purchasing power parity):
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
$738.8 billion (2008 est.)
Public debt:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
30.9% of GDP (2008 est.)

30.9% of $738.8B = $230B

http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/e...=1002521<=eng_news

Bwahahaha, I think you are a little confused.....the article is talking about the US, not Taiwan. I don't believe Taiwans is paying for wars in Iraq and Afghan.

Taiwan have a strick policy to watch the healthcare spending closely. That's why it's able to keep it 6% of GDP, vs I believe 15% for the US, one of the highest in the world.

As a long time tax payer in US and 2 US citizen kids, I really hope US start to seriously review the cost in every segment of the entire healthcare mega industry. It's not just the insurance, the hospital cost is ridiculous, the pharma. companies wields tremendous power in controlling prices.

The reason some of these other countries is able to control cost is to reduce the complexity of the system withh single payer. and with more centralized system, able to negotiate better price with providers of the healthcare services. Right now the US healthcare is just too fragmented, to complex to understand where the real issue is, and to have a central power to do anything about it.

You are also ignoring the fact that a lot of these countries are benefiting from US health care spending, allowing them to take advantage of technologies and drugs at a far lesser cost than Americans who are basically financing the advancements. So as stated in my first post... how would America switching to a UHC model affect the systems of countries around the world which may not spend that much on research and development?

BS

 

[Athena]

Originally posted by: bbdub333
You are also ignoring the fact that a lot of these countries are benefiting from US health care spending, allowing them to take advantage of technologies and drugs at a far lesser cost than Americans who are basically financing the advancements.

Are you aware that 6 of the world's ten largest pharmaceutical companies are headquartered in Europe -- all in countries with some form of single-payer, universal healthcare?

 

[Deadtrees]

One thing that I just can't understand is how America lack UHC, hospital bills cost ridiculous so much even with private health care, and there are people who are against it.
Really, how do people live knowing hopital bill is that insanly much?

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: bbdub333

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Check out Taiwan's debt some time since institutiong their current plan. Hits a trillion this year, and growing. Sounds like a fantastic plan to me

Whose butt you pull that number out of?

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/libr.........k/geos/tw.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library......tbook/geos/tw.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library/pu...-factbook/geos/tw.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tw.html">https://www.cia.gov/l............w.html</a></a></a></a>

GDP (purchasing power parity):
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
$738.8 billion (2008 est.)
Public debt:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
30.9% of GDP (2008 est.)

30.9% of $738.8B = $230B

http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/e...=1002521<=eng_news

Bwahahaha, I think you are a little confused.....the article is talking about the US, not Taiwan. I don't believe Taiwans is paying for wars in Iraq and Afghan.

Taiwan have a strick policy to watch the healthcare spending closely. That's why it's able to keep it 6% of GDP, vs I believe 15% for the US, one of the highest in the world.

As a long time tax payer in US and 2 US citizen kids, I really hope US start to seriously review the cost in every segment of the entire healthcare mega industry. It's not just the insurance, the hospital cost is ridiculous, the pharma. companies wields tremendous power in controlling prices.

The reason some of these other countries is able to control cost is to reduce the complexity of the system withh single payer. and with more centralized system, able to negotiate better price with providers of the healthcare services. Right now the US healthcare is just too fragmented, to complex to understand where the real issue is, and to have a central power to do anything about it.

You are also ignoring the fact that a lot of these countries are benefiting from US health care spending, allowing them to take advantage of technologies and drugs at a far lesser cost than Americans who are basically financing the advancements. So as stated in my first post... how would America switching to a UHC model affect the systems of countries around the world which may not spend that much on research and development?

Okay, let's say your argument has merit. (even I think it's the other way around with the rest of the world paying for many of the technologies/drug that benefited American. For example, 50%+ of Pfizer sales come from outside of US) You as American gotta ask why is the rest of the world paying less for the same thing American is paying?

Is American system broken? Is that why companies take advantage of American system instead of other system because it's harder to take advantage of?

 

[Firebot]

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Check out Taiwan's debt some time since institutiong their current plan. Hits a trillion this year, and growing. Sounds like a fantastic plan to me

Whose butt you pull that number out of?

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/l............w.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/l............os/tw.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/libr.........k/geos/tw.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library......tbook/geos/tw.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library/pu...-factbook/geos/tw.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tw.html">https://www.cia.gov/l............a></a></a></a></a></a>

GDP (purchasing power parity):
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
$738.8 billion (2008 est.)
Public debt:
Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order.
30.9% of GDP (2008 est.)

30.9% of $738.8B = $230B

http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/e...=1002521<=eng_news

blackangst, do you even read your own articles, that's AMERICA'S deficit :roll:

Nine months into the fiscal year, the federal deficit has topped $1 trillion for the first time ever.

The imbalance is intensifying fears about higher interest rates and inflation, and already pressuring the value of the dollar.

The Treasury Department says the deficit in June totaled $94.3 billion, pushing the total since the budget year started in October to nearly $1.1 trillion.

The deficit has been propelled by the huge sum the government has spent to combat the recession and financial crisis, combined with a sharp decline in tax revenues. Paying for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is also a major factor.

America's soaring deficits are making some foreign buyers of U.S. debt nervous, and this could make them reluctant lenders down the road.

ROFL, self-pwnage of the year. Good god man, that sad part is you could even see Blackansgt's partisan train of thought when he saw that people were praising Taiwan for its healthcare.

"Quick need to google something bad about Taiwan to prove those pro UHC morons wrong"

Google taiwan news deficit

"Oh sweet, 2nd link is paydirt - Budget deficit tops $1 trillion for first time - Taiwan News Online. Time to post it on AT P&N, those fools will eat their words once they see what Taiwan UHC really costs."

:laugh:


BTW, I find it funny blackangst posted that 1 link, when the very next link is this one.

TAIPEI, July 30 (Reuters) - Taiwan's cabinet has drawn up a

proposal for a central government budget deficit of T$189.1

billion ($5.7 billion) for 2010, wider than 2009 due to a series

of public spending to boost the recession-hit economy.

 

[Firebot]

Double post

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: Athena
Factual Background:

National Healthcare Insurance in Taiwan was implemented in 1995. At that time, more than 40% of the population was uncovered and costs were rising about 13% per year. As of 2008, 97% of the population was covered, and cost escalation was estimated at 5% per year. Taiwan actually has the lowest administration rates of any system and costs the country about of GDP

In 2008, fourteen years after the national healthcare system, the CIA estimated the Taiwanese debt at less than 31% of GDP or $280 Billion. So, with the facts at hand, I read...

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Check out Taiwan's debt some time since institutiong their current plan. Hits a trillion this year, and growing. Sounds like a fantastic plan to me

The article you cite as evidence of that states:

"The deficit has been propelled by the huge sum the government has spent to combat the recession and financial crisis, combined with a sharp decline in tax revenues. Paying for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is also a major factor."

Not a single word about health care as a contributor to the rising debt...not one word.

So, although it is true that the national debt has risen to 1 Trillion in the past year and that last year does qualify as "since" NHI was implemented, it is misrepresentation and obsfucation to imply as you did, that the escalating debt in Taiwan has had anything whatsoever to do with the healthcare system.

What I took away from that article was that the Taiwanese debt escalation was due to the same drivers as the US experienced ...with the caveat that problems in Taiwan have not been compounded by individuals loosing their health coverage because of job loss or driven into bankruptcy by medical bills.

blackangst posted an article about america's deficit, not taiwan's, that's why he's utterly confused. if he had bothered to read the article all the way through, he would know that.

To think that taiwan, whose 2008 GDP was 400 billion would have a 1 trillion dollar deficit in 2009 is absurd :roll:

FYI, taiwan has a projected deficit of 4 billion this year (and how much of that little sum is even healthcare?). Yeah blackangst, sounds like a pretty fantastic plan to me

I misread it. My bad :beer:

 

[Firebot]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: Athena
Factual Background:

National Healthcare Insurance in Taiwan was implemented in 1995. At that time, more than 40% of the population was uncovered and costs were rising about 13% per year. As of 2008, 97% of the population was covered, and cost escalation was estimated at 5% per year. Taiwan actually has the lowest administration rates of any system and costs the country about of GDP

In 2008, fourteen years after the national healthcare system, the CIA estimated the Taiwanese debt at less than 31% of GDP or $280 Billion. So, with the facts at hand, I read...

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Check out Taiwan's debt some time since institutiong their current plan. Hits a trillion this year, and growing. Sounds like a fantastic plan to me

The article you cite as evidence of that states:

"The deficit has been propelled by the huge sum the government has spent to combat the recession and financial crisis, combined with a sharp decline in tax revenues. Paying for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is also a major factor."

Not a single word about health care as a contributor to the rising debt...not one word.

So, although it is true that the national debt has risen to 1 Trillion in the past year and that last year does qualify as "since" NHI was implemented, it is misrepresentation and obsfucation to imply as you did, that the escalating debt in Taiwan has had anything whatsoever to do with the healthcare system.

What I took away from that article was that the Taiwanese debt escalation was due to the same drivers as the US experienced ...with the caveat that problems in Taiwan have not been compounded by individuals loosing their health coverage because of job loss or driven into bankruptcy by medical bills.

blackangst posted an article about america's deficit, not taiwan's, that's why he's utterly confused. if he had bothered to read the article all the way through, he would know that.

To think that taiwan, whose 2008 GDP was 400 billion would have a 1 trillion dollar deficit in 2009 is absurd :roll:

FYI, taiwan has a projected deficit of 4 billion this year (and how much of that little sum is even healthcare?). Yeah blackangst, sounds like a pretty fantastic plan to me

I misread it. My bad :beer:

:thumbsup: At least you owned up to the mistake. Lots of posters disappear when a mistake is made.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Firebot

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Phokus

Originally posted by: Athena
Factual Background:

National Healthcare Insurance in Taiwan was implemented in 1995. At that time, more than 40% of the population was uncovered and costs were rising about 13% per year. As of 2008, 97% of the population was covered, and cost escalation was estimated at 5% per year. Taiwan actually has the lowest administration rates of any system and costs the country about of GDP

In 2008, fourteen years after the national healthcare system, the CIA estimated the Taiwanese debt at less than 31% of GDP or $280 Billion. So, with the facts at hand, I read...

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Check out Taiwan's debt some time since institutiong their current plan. Hits a trillion this year, and growing. Sounds like a fantastic plan to me

The article you cite as evidence of that states:

"The deficit has been propelled by the huge sum the government has spent to combat the recession and financial crisis, combined with a sharp decline in tax revenues. Paying for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is also a major factor."

Not a single word about health care as a contributor to the rising debt...not one word.

So, although it is true that the national debt has risen to 1 Trillion in the past year and that last year does qualify as "since" NHI was implemented, it is misrepresentation and obsfucation to imply as you did, that the escalating debt in Taiwan has had anything whatsoever to do with the healthcare system.

What I took away from that article was that the Taiwanese debt escalation was due to the same drivers as the US experienced ...with the caveat that problems in Taiwan have not been compounded by individuals loosing their health coverage because of job loss or driven into bankruptcy by medical bills.

blackangst posted an article about america's deficit, not taiwan's, that's why he's utterly confused. if he had bothered to read the article all the way through, he would know that.

To think that taiwan, whose 2008 GDP was 400 billion would have a 1 trillion dollar deficit in 2009 is absurd :roll:

FYI, taiwan has a projected deficit of 4 billion this year (and how much of that little sum is even healthcare?). Yeah blackangst, sounds like a pretty fantastic plan to me

I misread it. My bad :beer:

:thumbsup: At least you owned up to the mistake. Lots of posters disappear when a mistake is made.

Not me. Thx for grace.

 

[Phokus]

Yeah thumbs up to blackangst i guess, but unfortunately i doubt that would persuade him towards UHC anyway

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
Oh, and before you come back with the "national health care will cause a shortage of doctors..." The number of doctors is controlled very tightly by the AMA. That's not a problem with national health care - that's a problem caused by one of the most powerful unions/lobbies in the U.S. Additionally, suppose in your nirvana little world that everyone DOES get a good enough job to pay for their own health insurance? Exact same problem with number of doctors - that problem is independent of national health care.

When you add more people overnight to the system than it can already support where is the treatment going to come from ? Are they going to magically appear ? If it is a problem with the AMA then they need to fix that FIRST before they overload the system with more people than it can support. If there already is not enough beds in hospitals, and there isn't, is UHC going to build those hospitals and if so how long will it take to build them ? What will people do while they wait ?

Passing UHC is a good idea only if you can provide the resources that people will need to make use of it. Without the support it is like having a pocket full of money to spend but all the stores are closed.

Right now the only reason the system is not completely overloaded is because of cost. People have to compare how sick they think they are to what it will cost to find out how sick they really are, it isn't fair and it would be nice if things were different but the reality is that unless you change the infrastructure that supports health care like doctors and hospitals you can't open the flood gates and give health care to all. Instead what they are doing is overloading the system with the idea that if enough people want it then it will be created. That is great for things like ball parks, but not health care.


When the ER fills with people there to have their headache looked at, or their stubbed toe bandaged and the guy who thinks he could have symptoms of heart trouble can't get in because of that, what good has UHC done him ? What controls are they placing on the system to prevent people from just going to the doctor like they go shopping ?


As for your comments about my nirvana little world, I pay cash for my health care because I can't get health insurance, this month alone it cost me half my income for health care because my provider dropped me due to excessive cost. Hell I can't even pay the satellite tv bill this month if I want to eat. My brother goes to a clinic because he can't afford health insurance. That doesn't mean I think that UHC is the answer.