Did you discover god on your own,...

[Athanasius]

<< Did you discover God for yourself? >>



I wouldn't phrase it that way. That implies some level of insight (positive) or delusion (negative) that would put me well beyond the pale of mainstream humanity. I think I am far too apathetic to fall very far outside the mean

But, having phrased it that way, as much as it is possible, I suppose I found God for myself. I was not raised in a religious or spiritual environment. My education was public school oriented and my first formal teaching that I received of any kind about religion was humanistic and viewed humanism as the successor to the evolutionary development of religion that had previously produced monotheism/deism.

Since I reject that presupposition now, I guess I've arrived at my present beliefs with some level of independent thought.

On another note:




<< << So God was in the concentration camps in Nazi Germany, the killing fields in Cambodia, in Okinawa and Hiroshima in WWII, and is now Africa watching his children starve to death and die of Aids? Nice GOD... >> >>



God is the Reality that cast a shadow on this holographic universe of space/mass/time. He is the universal constant, the &quot;Endless Wave&quot; of Ultimate Reality.

What is manifested in the universal wave can also manifest in the unique particle. That unique particle is Jesus of Nazareth.

<< &quot;Don't you know me . . . even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? >>

(John 14:9-10a, NIV)

So, God as Father is not &quot;watching apathetically&quot; as sufferring occurs. All suffering is his suffering. Many who have suffered have discovered this truth.

Since we have lost he ability to see this universal pattern, God reveals it to us in the particular life of Jesus of Nazareth. That is one reason why the Word/Logos of God became flesh in the humanity of Jesus of Nazareth. All of relational life (the life that matters) is either experiencing the resurrected joy of Christ, or experiencing the crucified suffering of Christ, or some mixture of politics, cynicism and giving up (remember Pontius Pilate?) and malicious scapegoating that actually crucifies Christ.

<< In him [Christ] all things consist >>

(Colossians 1:17)

If we can't learn to see that pattern in the physical example of Jesus of Nazareth, we will never understand the universal, omnipresent, loving, suffering, and holy God.

Instead, we will go insane. Of course, by an atheist's persepective, I already am deluded. That's OK. Read my signature and look up the reference

 

[Elledan]

Why does it matter so much whether there does or doesn't exist anything like (a) god(s)? It seems like we'll have to do everything on our own. I don't see some supernatural being &quot;coming down from the skies&quot; to 'restore' worldpeace (questionable) in the nearby future.

BTW for those who still question evolution because it 'would be very unlikely', try reading this article:

http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62932-2001Jan29.html

 

[Total Refected Power]

I was raised a Catholic and still have strong ties.

I believe in God in many ways. Every time I do an experiment and unravel in the smallest way the genius behind the physical world. Every time my wife smiles. Every time I spend time with my family. Every time my niece or nephew grabs my hand.

It is an undescribable feeling that I am blessed.

 

[Thorn]

<< Perhaps God allows suffering to test both the victims and the well. >>


God doesn't allow suffering, it's a byproduct of mankind's &quot;fall&quot;. We (as a whole) still accept this situation as reality... so we're stuck.

&quot;Be ye perfect. Be perfect, therefore,
as your heavenly Father is perfect.&quot; - Matthew 5:48

Seems pretty obvious to me.

Of course, if you're not Christian, the above has little importance to you... or maybe it should be all-important.

 

[Thorn]

BTW, I didn't find God... he found me.

 

[novon]

Founded a liking for morality and spirituality at 15. Ever since then, I have been hooked.

 

[Kosugi]

Don't confuse God and Religion. They aren't the same.


For instance, I can take a look outside and see the wonder and complexity of this world, and that alone reassures me that there is a master plan within it. And that master is this thing we call God.

Religion, I don't believe in. I don't think, no, I know that none of them have it right. They never have. To even assume creatures like ourselves can understand or quantify/qualify a God is absurd. Anything that can create the Universe is beyond description. The so-called religious caste have played on fear of the unknown to manipulate the masses for millenia. Religion is the tool of the Politician.

So, I would answer your question that I found God through reason and my studies (scientific), where as those same studies caused me to reject Religion.

 

[~zonker~]

Thorn

The poor you will always have with you (MT 26:11a)

Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. (JAS 1:2~3)

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. (1PE 1:6)

Being a christian does not guarantee freedom from pain and suffering. God allows suffering as a means of making men more perfect.

 

[Whitedog]

Again, for the umpteenth time...

OK, here is how God works...

People tell you about God, you listen to them (or don't listen in many cases), then you either believe, or don't believe (in many cases here)...

Those that believe, God reveals himself to you (can't be explained how, but believers know what I am talking about)...

Those that Don't believe are left standing saying &quot;there is no God&quot;

That is why Unless you &quot;believe&quot; in God, you can't know if he exist or not. Pretty good way of weeding out the believers from the non-believers wouldn't you say? God's a lot smarter than you are...

End of story.

 

[BoberFett]

Kosugi

You've got it.

 

[Thorn]

<< Being a christian does not guarantee freedom from pain and suffering. >>


I never said it did. Even Christ (who is perfect) felt suffering and pain, but that was because he was here. The world, as we know it, is imperfect. So we are held to the same rules... my view is that we're not suffering because of who we are, we're suffering because of where we are. We can fix this by accepting God's Law, stopping our disobedience, and striving to be Christ in everything we do.


<< God allows suffering as a means of making men more perfect. >>


It's our own disobedience (as a species/race) that causes our suffering, not because God wants it for us.

 

[Whitedog]

<<God allows suffering as a means of making men more perfect. >>, or bringing us closer to Him.

This is a true statement.

 

[Missus]

Who???

 

[brandc]

<So, how can the creator be more easily imagined and understood when the creation cannot?>
I imagine only that said Creator exists, but claim no understanding. I know not. The creation I can see, feel, smell and so forth with limited understanding, many things are beyond my ken - for instance Relativity, Complementarity, and howcome there isn't any whiz in Cheese Whiz.

<Many misundertand the Second Law of Thermodynamics and argue that simplicity derives from complexity but not the other way around. Certainly, the Creator must be much more complex than its creation.>

Dammit, UG, that one makes my head hurt! If complexity can derive from simplicity then I don't understand the second law of thermodynamics. <elements in a closed system tend to seek their most probable distribution; in a closed system entropy always increases. >

If you put a physicist out on a rock won't he eventually dry out and degrade to his basic chemical elements? But how did that physicist originally come to be? Before degradatiom isn't he a violation of the second law of thermodynamics?

 

[Elledan]

<<<<God allows suffering as a means of making men more perfect. >>, or bringing us closer to Him.

This is a true statement. >>

Please explain.

 

[Whitedog]

Elledan, read the book of Job

 

[SirFshAlot]

I don't think you can explain &quot;god&quot; with physics.

Have you tried explaining physics through spiritual means?


Spirituality comes from deep within yourself.

I was explained a lot of religious stuff as a child.
I forgot it during my wild years.

But when my daughter &quot;arrived&quot;, so did the &quot;sender&quot;.

I had dreams that I could never communicate on this forum. They go beyond typed words.


Atheism, and so-called proof of non-existance are great fodder for this internet exchange, but God exists in spite of this place.


IamDavid,
your logic regarding the cruelty that goes on in the world is pretty lame
try using a logic that assumed (hypothetically) that a god existed......what would be the point of this god forcing everything to be paradisical?
do you have children? if so, do you follow them around 24/7 and intervene in any possible mistake or harm that they may cause?
or do you let them grow?

 

[Elita1]

Actually both happened to me: I was taught about God and in growing up and experiencing life I found God. I found Him in countless little ways and in a few very big ways as well.
I was blessed in that my parents did not teach me about a vengeful god who is just waiting for us to trip up in the smallest way to gleefully send us packing off to hell.
The God I know is not like that.

To Isla
&quot;The only convincing argument I ever had was in the eyes of the most pure and the most humble.

So maybe I am a freak now because of it... but I would say I have been truly touched by God, in It's most pure form. Stray dogs and mentally handicapped children. Yep.&quot;

Mother Theresa of Calcutta always loved and gave her life to serve the poor for that very reason--she saw God in them. You are not a freak, dear Isla.

It is in the poor and the suffering that I really have seen God clearly manifested; as well as in those who give unselfishly without ever expecting anything in return, and those who accept and love unreservedly, without waiting to be loved back.

 

[Elita1]

<< I don't think it is human nature to be compassionate, to sacrifice, and to give unselfishly.... actually, it is human nature to be just the opposite. I think that those qualities come from 'the angels of our better nature'. >>



I agree, Isla. I call it God's love reflecting in us and shining thru us to others.
(not trying to preach at you here)


TRP--



<< I believe in God in many ways. Every time I do an experiment and unravel in the smallest way the genius behind the physical world. Every time my wife smiles. Every time I spend time with my family. Every time my niece or nephew grabs my hand. >>



Well said. Great post! I know how you feel

 

[Athanasius]

<< It is a strange thing. Dozens of times I have been asked by patients or acquaintences, &quot;Why is there evil in the world?&quot; Yet no one has ever asked me in all these years: &quot;Why is there good in the world?&quot; It is as if we automatically assume this is a naturally good world that has somehow been contaminated by evil. In terms of what we know of science, however, it is actually easier to explain evil. That things decay is quite explainable in accord with the natural law of physics. That life should evolve into more and more complex forms is not so easily understandable. That children generally lie and steal and cheat is routinely observable. The fact that sometimes they grow up to become truly honest adults is what seems the more remarkable. Laziness is more the rule than diligence. If we seriously think about it, it probably makes more sense to assume that this is a naturally evil world that has somehow been &quot;contaminated&quot; by goodness, rather than the other way around. The mystery of goodness is even greater than the mystery of evil >>



M. Scott Peck, People of the Lie, p. 41, Simon &amp; Schuster, 1983.


We assume goodness because we are created in the image of the Good. In this a priori assumption, we become blinded to the mystery of goodness and let the mystery of evil destroy our faith.

 

[UG]

The conclusion seems to be that you find god if god is what you seek personally, and you don't find god if what you seek personally is something else.

Neither way seems to be universally compelling. How revealing.

 

[Moonbeam]

I don't know. I sought him with everything I had and found only that even stripped of everything notion, love does not die.

 

[~zonker~]

UG... never thought I'ld hear you quoting scripture *L*


&quot;The conclusion seems to be that you find god if god is what you seek personally, and you don't find god if what you seek personally is
something else.


The LORD is with you when you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you. (2 Chronicles 2:15b)

 

[UG]

~zonker~,

I wasn't quoting scripture, I was quoting psychology.

 

[~zonker~]

Psychology, Theology, Philosophy.. what ever you want to call it...

I'm just pointing out that the conclusion that you have come to from asking this question and considering the replies, perhaps 'your truth', is a very good paraphrase for a 'truth' recorded over three thousand years ago