Did the Cavs win last night?

[QueBert]

Kobe is the best currently active player in the NBA and Jordan is the GOAT, deal with it. 😎

Actually no, James was the MVP last 2 years, and there's a decent chance he'll repeat a 3rd time this year. IF he can pull that off playing with the 3rd best player in the league (Wade) and the 6th (Bosh) it's a wrap. But, even if not the last 2 seasons proved he's the best in recent memory. I assure you Kobe doesn't have a chance in hell of being the season MVP this year. Wade, James, Bosh & Anthony all have a better shot than him.

 

[AstroManLuca]

Actually no, James was the MVP last 2 years, and there's a decent chance he'll repeat a 3rd time this year. IF he can pull that off playing with the 3rd best player in the league (Wade) and the 6th (Bosh) it's a wrap. But, even if not the last 2 seasons proved he's the best right now.

 

[Patt]

Bill Simmons once brought up the disparity Shaq moving to Miami in his prime had:
Lakers -22 wins and Miami +17 wins = 39 win disparity.

For Lebron, based on their current win%, we're on track for:
Cavs -50 wins and Miami +13 wins = 63 win disparity.

Shaq was not in his prime when he went to Miami. Much closer than now ... but certainly not his prime.

 

[QueBert]

Umm, that's because he played with a BETTER TEAM, if that is your logic I guess you could also post a picture of Luke Walton too. Because he won titles with the Lakers, that must mean he's a better player than James right? James is a better player, Bryant played on a better team. It's as simple as that.

 

[dougp]

Actually no, James was the MVP last 2 years, and there's a decent chance he'll repeat a 3rd time this year. IF he can pull that off playing with the 3rd best player in the league (Wade) and the 6th (Bosh) it's a wrap. But, even if not the last 2 seasons proved he's the best in recent memory. I assure you Kobe doesn't have a chance in hell of being the season MVP this year. Wade, James, Bosh & Anthony all have a better shot than him.

Without his championships, Jordan wouldn't be considered the GOAT. Hell, I personally have never and will never consider him the GOAT. Wilt, Bill Russell and Jordan were all players that have lead to a "revolution" in the way the game was played. LBJ will not lead to a revolution in the way the game is played, just as neither has Kobe. The game is revolutionizing itself as a PG/SG oriented league, hence players like Paul, Rondo & Wade are establishing themselves at the head of the league.

Miami won't win the championship this year, period. They probably won't even win next year - and putting Chris Bosh as the 6th best player in the league is a joke. He's not even the 6th best big man in the league, you have DHow, Pau, KLove, Dirk, Aldridge, Bargani (funny, huh?), Zach Randolph, Griffin, Bogut, Stoudemire, Garnett, Duncan ... dude, the list goes on and on. Bosh was overrated going into this offseason, and is nothing more than a role player who over achieved on a terrible team. Hell, he was more of the Raptors mascot when he had his cornrows.

 

[QueBert]

Without his championships, Jordan wouldn't be considered the GOAT. Hell, I personally have never and will never consider him the GOAT.

Not sure I agree with that, if he played exactly how he did but on a team that never won a championship he could very well have still went on to be the GOAT. If James keeps getting better and better every year, even without a ring he could still go down as the GOAT. He's the only player in the league who has any sort of chance to overtake Jordan. Even if that doesn't happen and he retires with no rings. He'll still be top 3 of all time easily.

 

[dougp]

Not sure I agree with that, if he played exactly how he did but on a team that never won a championship he could very well have still went on to be the GOAT. If James keeps getting better and better every year, even without a ring he could still go down as the GOAT. He's the only player in the league who has any sort of chance to overtake Jordan. Even if that doesn't happen and he retires with no rings. He'll still be top 3 of all time easily.

LBJ in the top 3? Wow ... Doubtful, he'll never earn a place amongst Bird, Jordan, Johnson, Robinson, Olajuwan, Wilt, Russell, Stockton, Malone, Barkley, Shaq etc ...

Wanna know why? He quit. Period. He will forever be remembered for how he acted during the playoffs last year, and for the spectacle he made during the summer. It wasn't class, it didn't show leadership or anything one comes to expect from a truly timeless player. Where's his fierce drive, his competitiveness? Do you notice something about the players I listed who are considered the true greats? A majority of them played for ONE team their entire career, with their twilight years not including being shuffled for the money.

LBJ has built his career off of his athleticism. He has no defensive skill outside of hustle blocks. His footwork in the post is highly suspect, especially when given his size at his position. His actual shooting skill will never rank anywhere near Bird, Johnson or even Jordan.

Fuck, Jordan countered EVERYTHING the media threw at him ... too selfish? leads the league in assists. Can't play defense? DPOY the next year. Jordan didn't quit. The reason why I refuse to label him the GOAT is because it's a team sport and I think no one should be labeled GOAT because you can't win it all by himself. Jordan didn't, as he had some of the best teams in NBA history around him. Hell, Pippen had to be one of the most underrated players during his career.

LBJ had good teams in CLE. Granted, they weren't great - but they had a bunch of good role players who actually deserved to play on a different team where they'd truly matter in their role. Remember, LBJ had a lot of control over that team when he was there - he's as much to blame as the ownership and coaches were for the downfall of the Cavs.

 

[acheron]

not to mention i believe we still have the longest consecutive sell out streak for any major sport...

Don't think that is true? The Indians' streak record was broken by the Red Sox in MLB, and when you include other sports, neither has come close to the Portland Trailblazers' record (800+ games).

Still, I agree about Cleveland sports in general. A lot of great fans, but either terrible teams or else good (even great) teams that never quite make it.

 

[BrokenVisage]

Don't think that is true? The Indians' streak record was broken by the Red Sox in MLB, and when you include other sports, neither has come close to the Portland Trailblazers' record (800+ games).

Still, I agree about Cleveland sports in general. A lot of great fans, but either terrible teams or else good (even great) teams that never quite make it.

Wow, would have never guessed that Portland owns the longest sellout streak of any sport. Then again, wasn't their old stadium a bit on the small side?

 

[Homerboy]

Jordan vs James is stupid argument. Jordan completely changed the game and the way it was fundamentally played. Rules were changed because of him. Everything changed. Much like plays like Chamberlin too. Nothing has changed with LeBron thus far excite pomp and circumstance.

 

[dougp]

Jordan vs James is stupid argument. Jordan completely changed the game and the way it was fundamentally played. Rules were changed because of him. Everything changed. Much like plays like Chamberlin too. Nothing has changed with LeBron thus far excite pomp and circumstance.

Like I said above, Wilt, Russell and Jordan all caused "revolutions" in the sport.

 

[mesthead21]

People say James sucks because he doesn't have a ring yet. Last season the Cavs had the best record in the league, he leaves and they now have the worst record in the league. With as horrible of a team as they were aside from him, he still came close to single handily winning a title last year. He's the best player in the league by such a large margin it's not even funny.

Kobe Bryant is laughing his ass off right now.

 

[mesthead21]

Jordan vs James is stupid argument. Jordan completely changed the game and the way it was fundamentally played. Rules were changed because of him. Everything changed. Much like plays like Chamberlin too. Nothing has changed with LeBron thus far excite pomp and circumstance.

LeBron added the crab dribble! aka "the travel"

 

[a123456]

Like I said above, Wilt, Russell and Jordan all caused "revolutions" in the sport.

All 3 of those guys were really good during their period of time, but there's still a hierarchy among them.

Most people would have Russell > Wilt since basketball is a team game after all. Wilt was really good, no question. He put individual numbers that will never ever be matched, not even close. But the problem is that he cared so much about his stats above everything else, even if it cost his teams a bunch of games. That's why he only ended up with 2 rings, even though he led the league points, rebounds, FG%, etc.

Wilt's ridiculous 48.5 minute average per game is just one example. When he got a few fouls, he'd stop playing defense so he wouldn't foul out and risk his 48+ minute/game average. No matter how good you are, if you pull that kind of stuff to cost your team some games, it lowers your overall level.

Lebron is good, really good. He may end up with more MVPs than anyone else when his career is over. I'm pretty sure he'll end up with at least 1 ring. He's just too good not to eventually win 1, even if it takes some luck. But if his career ended today, it's not that impressive (at least not top 10 all-time). The thing about Lebron is the future upside and what we hope to see in the upcoming years. If the Heat rattle off 6 rings in the next 10 years with him being the best player, I think all will be forgiven. If he gets hurt a lot, puts up decent numbers and doesn't win anything, it's going to be tough to put him up there.

The thing about rings is that if you're that good, you eventually win one or more from osmosis. Guys like Malone, Stockton, Baylor and Robertson were good but we never put them in the same category as guys like Russell, Jordan, Bird, Magic.

 

[trmiv]

Jordan vs James is stupid argument. Jordan completely changed the game and the way it was fundamentally played. Rules were changed because of him. Everything changed. Much like plays like Chamberlin too. Nothing has changed with LeBron thus far excite pomp and circumstance.

I'm not arguing the greatness of Michael because I agree he was great and probably the GOAT, but what rules were changed because of him? I can't recall a single rule change during his time in the league put in to slow him down like they did with Wilt. If anything the rule changes during his time helped his game like eliminating hand checking, shortening the 3 point line, the rule to prohibit the forearm to impede progress. Wilt on the other hand, there were changes that were put in to stop him like widening the lane (which was previously widened because of George Mikan), defensive 3 seconds, free throw rules.

 

[Homerboy]

I'm not arguing the greatness of Michael because I agree he was great and probably the GOAT, but what rules were changed because of him? I can't recall a single rule change during his time in the league put in to slow him down like they did with Wilt. If anything the rule changes during his time helped his game like eliminating hand checking, shortening the 3 point line, the rule to prohibit the forearm to impede progress. Wilt on the other hand, there were changes that were put in to stop him like widening the lane (which was previously widened because of George Mikan), defensive 3 seconds, free throw rules.

You're right on the rules. I was thinking more of Wilt when I made that comment (my brain got ahead of my typing). If the hand checking rule was changed when Jordan was around, his stats would have been WAY different (for the better).

I always tell my son you simply CAN NOT assign "greatest ever" to any person (specifically in sports. You just can't do it. You can call people "one of the greatest", such as Wilt, Russell and Jordan, but you just cant say XYZ is THE GREATEST.

 

[trmiv]

You're right on the rules. I was thinking more of Wilt when I made that comment (my brain got ahead of my typing). If the hand checking rule was changed when Jordan was around, his stats would have been WAY different (for the better).

I always tell my son you simply CAN NOT assign "greatest ever" to any person (specifically in sports. You just can't do it. You can call people "one of the greatest", such as Wilt, Russell and Jordan, but you just cant say XYZ is THE GREATEST.

The initial change was made when he was still playing, but not the one that pretty much eliminated it (04-05 season). The initial hand-checking rule (defined as from the end line in the backcourt to the opposite foul line) was put in before the 94-95 season. The current rules that would have benefited Jordan a lot were the contact rules in 99-00 and the really significant contact rules in 00-01. Those rules more than anything else, have contributed to the glut of quality point guards in the NBA now, IMHO.

 

[acheron]

Wow, would have never guessed that Portland owns the longest sellout streak of any sport. Then again, wasn't their old stadium a bit on the small side?

Yeah I think so. I think their streak ended once they moved to a larger arena. Still pretty impressive though. If a team doesn't have the fans, they're not going to sell out no matter how small the place is. (I go to Nationals games, so I know how that works. 😛 Not that Nationals Park is especially small, but I've been at some pretty low attendance games. I don't think they could sell out AAA parks on a consistent basis.)

 

[ElFenix]

james will never be the best player in the league. once kobe is done being the best player in the league durant will be the best player in the league.

 

[OCGuy]

People say James sucks because he doesn't have a ring yet. Last season the Cavs had the best record in the league, he leaves and they now have the worst record in the league. With as horrible of a team as they were aside from him, he still came close to single handily winning a title last year. He's the best player in the league by such a large margin it's not even funny.

WTF were you watching?

Edit: NVM, I just looked to see who the poster was.

 

[OCGuy]

🙂

 

[zinfamous]

Like I said above, Wilt, Russell and Jordan all caused "revolutions" in the sport.

Jordan also managed to cause a revolution in his own game, after sitting out for two years, and became an even better player.

 

[zinfamous]

I'm not arguing the greatness of Michael because I agree he was great and probably the GOAT, but what rules were changed because of him? I can't recall a single rule change during his time in the league put in to slow him down like they did with Wilt. If anything the rule changes during his time helped his game like eliminating hand checking, shortening the 3 point line, the rule to prohibit the forearm to impede progress. Wilt on the other hand, there were changes that were put in to stop him like widening the lane (which was previously widened because of George Mikan), defensive 3 seconds, free throw rules.

Didn't The hand check "foul" come about as a result of defenders trying to contain Jordan when he was playing at UNC?

If nothing else, he's at least responsible for ticky-tack fouls being called against defenders.

😀

 

[zinfamous]

You're right on the rules. I was thinking more of Wilt when I made that comment (my brain got ahead of my typing). If the hand checking rule was changed when Jordan was around, his stats would have been WAY different (for the better).

I always tell my son you simply CAN NOT assign "greatest ever" to any person (specifically in sports. You just can't do it. You can call people "one of the greatest", such as Wilt, Russell and Jordan, but you just cant say XYZ is THE GREATEST.

but Gretzky is the greatest.

it's even in his name.

😀

 

[QueBert]

WTF were you watching?

Edit: NVM, I just looked to see who the poster was.

I know you're slow but try to follow, pre James the Cavs were nothing, he played with a below average squad last year, and despite that still carried his teams into the play-offs. He was the league MVP for a 2nd year. If it wasn't for James his team would have been on the road to last place. When you have a team that's in dead last this year that was in the play offs last year. It's not a stretch to say he almost single handedly carried his team to a title. And his performance a few weeks ago showed he's again the best player in the league. Not even playing 100% he did something in 4 quarters that it took Kobe double OT to pull off.

I'm calling it right now, by the time he retires he'll have at least 6 MVP awards to his name.