Did religion play a negative role in your upbringing?

[Blackjack200]

No religion or, more correctly, belief in God provides a different perspective than just 'looking out for number one.' There are many different types of belief systems. A popular one in these forums is science or logic. Some folks place their faith in a system of laws. It is merely my belief that God transcends these other belief systems. Man is inherently flawed and so tends towards conflict more often than not.

Science is not a belief system, it's a method for explaining phenomena.

Scientific explanations are also demonstrable and repeatable, something religious claims are not.

 

[Locut0s]

Wow I'm surprised to be the first to say that he was raised without any religion (although I skimmed the thread). Religion has played no role in my life at all basically. My mother is Buddhist though and my father atheist, raised Christian.

 

[Atreus21]

I'm convinced that churchy people's heroic and undying attempts to justify god and the bible are so strong because, at a fundemental level, each time they defend/advocate god/the bible, they are trying to prove to themselves that they really truly buy that steaming pile of shit, while some tiny part of their being, repressed deep down inside, knows the truth that it's all a lie, and that they don't buy it at all.


.

You know it's funny, because I'm equally convinced that atheists have the opposite suspicion. Or maybe it's a horrific realization, if they follow their belief to its logical conclusion:

That if there is no greater being in the universe that gives meaning and purpose to our lives, then all is for naught. All life, civilization, all good, evil, and everything in between, will have been for nothing. As Lewis put it, everything in the end will turn out to be "nothing but a senseless contortion on the idiotic face of infinite matter."

What reason is there for virtue and righteousness in a world with no higher authority? Where do atheists derive any claim to a moral existence? By what standard is an act to be deemed good or evil to an atheist? Simply the standards of a society which at this point in time happens to be in power?

 

[Locut0s]

You know it's funny, because I'm equally convinced that atheists have the opposite suspicion. Or maybe it's a horrific realization, if they follow their belief to its logical conclusion:

That if there is no greater being in the universe that gives meaning and purpose to our lives, then all is for naught. All life, civilization, all good, evil, and everything in between, will have been for nothing. As Lewis put it, everything in the end will turn out to be "nothing but a senseless contortion on the idiotic face of infinite matter."

What reason is there for virtue and righteousness in a world with no higher authority? Where do atheists derive any claim to a moral existence? By what standard is an act to be deemed good or evil to an atheist? Simply the standards of a society which at this point in time happens to be in power?

Most of us atheists are secular humanists.

And the idea that all was for naught and that the universe is empty and "meaningless" is actually a comforting thought once you understand it.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

The golden rule ("do unto others as you would have them do unto you") follows from logic, and pretty much all "societal" beliefs can stem logically from that initial precept.

And don't go trying to attribute that idea to Jesus of Nazareth. It was around far earlier than he was.

Lack of belief in god does NOT mean that I'm "only looking out for number one".

That's the first logical failure of your argument.

That one principle is hardly the sum total of Christian belief. Logic never created anything. It is a method of describing the world around us (not the only one).

Tell me, what is logical about believing someone else is of more importance than yourself if, you don't believe in God? If your primary belief is in logic, is a great scientist of more worth than you? If you believe in a system of laws, is a Supreme Court Justice of more value than you?

 

[zerocool84]

You know it's funny, because I'm equally convinced that atheists have the opposite suspicion. Or maybe it's a horrific realization, if they follow their belief to its logical conclusion:

That if there is no greater being in the universe that gives meaning and purpose to our lives, then all is for naught. All life, civilization, all good, evil, and everything in between, will have been for nothing. As Lewis put it, everything in the end will turn out to be "nothing but a senseless contortion on the idiotic face of infinite matter."

What reason is there for virtue and righteousness in a world with no higher authority? Where do atheists derive any claim to a moral existence? By what standard is an act to be deemed good or evil to an atheist? Simply the standards of a society which at this point in time happens to be in power?

To me that's a very sad existence that you need something else to give you a meaning to live.

 

[Blackjack200]

...there is no greater being in the universe that gives meaning and purpose to our lives, then all is for naught. All life, civilization, all good, evil, and everything in between, will have been for nothing. As Lewis put it, everything in the end will turn out to be "nothing but a senseless contortion on the idiotic face of infinite matter."

Basically; yes. There's no afterlife. This is the one we get. Enjoy it. 🙂

What reason is there for virtue and righteousness in a world with no higher authority? Where do atheists derive any claim to a moral existence? By what standard is an act to be deemed good or evil to an atheist? Simply the standards of a society which at this point in time happens to be in power?

I don't believe in virtue or righteousness. I do believe in social behavior, and I do so because we are all better off if we all follow certain rules. You see the same thing across the animal kingdom. There's a reason that Piranhas don't eat each other.

 

[Atreus21]

Science is not a belief system, it's a method for explaining phenomena.

Scientific explanations are also demonstrable and repeatable, something religious claims are not.

Not sure if I agree. This is my opinion, but I think all knowledge, even the most certain knowledge like 2+2=4, is predicated on the belief simply that the world adds up. Science's foundation lies, I think, in the belief that things are supposed to make sense if you dig deep enough into them.

 

[MJinZ]

Wow I'm surprised to be the first to say that he was raised without any religion (although I skimmed the thread). Religion has played no role in my life at all basically. My mother is Buddhist though and my father atheist, raised Christian.

You're probably the first person to say it outright, but I'm sure others have implied it.

 

[Locut0s]

That one principle is hardly the sum total of Christian belief. Logic never created anything. It is a method of describing the world around us (not the only one).

Tell me, what is logical about believing someone else is of more importance than yourself if, you don't believe in God? If your primary belief is in logic, is a great scientist of more worth than you? If you believe in a system of laws, is a Supreme Court Justice of more value than you?

The problem with religion is that it takes ideas like morality, human worth, values, etc.. and posits that they stem from religious belief when in fact they are all evolutionary outgrowths. Irrespective of one's religion people can and do hold the same systems of values and morals both good and bad.

 

[Blackjack200]

Not sure if I agree. This is my opinion, but I think all knowledge, even the most certain knowledge like 2+2=4, is predicated on the belief simply that the world adds up. Science's foundation lies, I think, in the belief that things are supposed to make sense if you dig deep enough into them.

I don't know what any of this is supposed to mean. 2+2=4 because that's how we define it.

 

[lxskllr]

Tell me, what is logical about believing someone else is of more importance than yourself if, you don't believe in God?

Non logic, and atheism aren't mutually exclusive. Generally the logical choice is to look out for yourself. As it is, I look out for my daughter first, and I place a high value on my cats. It's not purely logical, but that's beside the point. Anyone who rigidly follows any rule book is living wrong. Btw, I'm not Christian, atheist, agnostic, or anything else. I have better things to think about than musings that are unprovable one way or the other.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Science is not a belief system, it's a method for explaining phenomena.

Scientific explanations are also demonstrable and repeatable, something religious claims are not.

Science IS a belief system if you think it can eventually provide answers to all of man's questions. Tell me what science has to offer for describing levels or effects of honor, sacrifice and, love?

Saying scientific explanations are logical is akin to saying belief in God is based on faith. Both arguments are entirely circular and provide no new knowledge.

 

[MJinZ]

Not sure if I agree. This is my opinion, but I think all knowledge, even the most certain knowledge like 2+2=4, is predicated on the belief simply that the world adds up. Science's foundation lies, I think, in the belief that things are supposed to make sense if you dig deep enough into them.

It's not a belief system, it's an axiom system. Mathematics is a system of logic expressed using numbers, symbols and operations. The world around you is self evident, only when something is NOT, is when belief fills in the gaps.

 

[Locut0s]

Science IS a belief system if you think it can eventually provide answers to all of man's questions. Tell me what science has to offer for describing levels or effects of honor, sacrifice and, love?

Nothing important. But then you assume that religion provides answers here that non-religion doesn't which is false.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

The problem with religion is that it takes ideas like morality, human worth, values, etc.. and posits that they stem from religious belief when in fact they are all evolutionary outgrowths.

I'd dearly like to see you prove that using any other belief system you like. 🙂

 

[MJinZ]

Science IS a belief system if you think it can eventually provide answers to all of man's questions. Tell me what science has to offer for describing levels or effects of honor, sacrifice and, love?

Saying scientific explanations are logical is akin to saying belief in God is based on faith. Both arguments are entirely circular and provide no new knowledge.

If I told you the levels of neurotransmitters, endorphins, hormones, and opiods and their interactions with the electrochemical functions in your brain describes exactly those states of being/feelings, you wouldn't believe it anyway.

 

[Locut0s]

I'd dearly like to see you prove that using any other belief system you like. 🙂

All I'm saying is this. Both those that are religious and those that are not are capable of the same acts of kindness, cruelty, morality, sin, love, and forgiveness. Do you deny this?

 

[MJinZ]

Non logic, and atheism aren't mutually exclusive. Generally the logical choice is to look out for yourself. As it is, I look out for my daughter first, and I place a high value on my cats. It's not purely logical, but that's beside the point. Anyone who rigidly follows any rule book is living wrong. Btw, I'm not Christian, atheist, agnostic, or anything else. I have better things to think about than musings that are unprovable one way or the other.

Those are incorrect assumptions. A single human being is irrelevant. That is why you protect your daughter. It is our superseding imperative to protect our genetics, not simply ourselves.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Nothing important. But then you assume that religion provides answers here that non-religion doesn't which is false.

That is exactly the purpose of religion. You might not like the answers but, that doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[MJinZ]

The problem with religion is that it takes ideas like morality, human worth, values, etc.. and posits that they stem from religious belief when in fact they are all evolutionary outgrowths. Irrespective of one's religion people can and do hold the same systems of values and morals both good and bad.

Correct. Ancient civilizations from Greece, India and China have complex moral and ethical frameworks which predate a single Judeo-Christian idea.

 

[Locut0s]

That is exactly the purpose of religion. You might not like the answers but, that doesn't mean they don't exist.

Ahh so you are saying that you as a believer are capable of human acts that those who are non-believers are not capable of?

 

[MAKENITO]

The thing that was really hard to deal with - for me - was the whole guilt thing. Culture + religion had me thinking of sex as a bad thing, masturbation was a definite no no. As I grew up, I saw that the people I really looked up to were really just bible bashers - who only practiced Christianity while in church. I refused to be like that..

I still attend weekly Mass, but it is lip service (if that) more than anything - sadly. I cant bring myself not to go to Mass, its like the week is not complete if I havent attended church - in saying this, I could stand to be a bit more faithful.

 

[MJinZ]

That one principle is hardly the sum total of Christian belief. Logic never created anything. It is a method of describing the world around us (not the only one).

Tell me, what is logical about believing someone else is of more importance than yourself if, you don't believe in God? If your primary belief is in logic, is a great scientist of more worth than you? If you believe in a system of laws, is a Supreme Court Justice of more value than you?

Logic is the study of reason, which stems from intelligence and rational thought. You are saying "logic" did not create anything, like you actually know what you're talking about. Logic has created *every* technological advancement known to man that has ever relied on Mathematics (a symbolic system of logic), which happens to be every scientific discipline in the world. You can thank Logic for your prescription drugs, computers, cars etc.

Rational thought itself allows the human race to retain knowledge after death. Society will incorporate and advance humanity's understanding of the universe, even as the individuals pass on.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

If I told you the levels of neurotransmitters, endorphins, hormones, and opiods and their interactions with the electrochemical functions in your brain describes exactly those states of being/feelings, you wouldn't believe it anyway.

Those are incorrect assumptions. A single human being is irrelevant. That is why you protect your daughter. It is our superseding imperative to protect our genetics, not simply ourselves.

Even if you could (and you can't) describe exactly what combination of electrochemical functions relate to a specific emotion or feeling, you still couldn't show how that feeling or emotion was created or initiated. Any form of science can only describe a moment in time not, intent.

If you truly believe "a single human being is irrelevant," you are either a monster or, more likely, just truly foolish.