Did Christie make a mistake in cancelling the tunnel project?

[manimal]

After recently canceling the first tunnel project from NYC to NJ in decades many have lauded the NJ politician for cutting the spending. I do know he objected to NY not paying enough on their end but was canceling a much needed infrastructure project a short term political decision or a good long term strategy?


FYI my wife used to be a bridge and tunnel girl and commuted via that mess and still has nightmares from being trapped in the tunnel because of a accident..

 

[Thump553]

No. As a CT taxpayer I strongly urge that Christie do everything he can to send NYC's business-and money-our way. You guys can keep the Sopranos if you want.

 

[manimal]

No. As a CT taxpayer I strongly urge that Christie do everything he can to send NYC's business-and money-our way. You guys can keep the Sopranos if you want.

lol

 

[ElFenix]

a link is necessary but was that particular tunnel the best way to do it? i mean the big dig is nice but holy crap did it overrun.

 

[theeedude]

I think he did, the right thing, for other states. CA just got some more money for high speed rail

 

[Brainonska511]

a link is necessary but was that particular tunnel the best way to do it? i mean the big dig is nice but holy crap did it overrun.

What would you suggest?

Keep in mind, that connecting to Penn Station was infeasible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access_to_the_Region's_Core#Penn_Station_connector

 

[the DRIZZLE]

As an NJ resident I think he did the right thing. The tax burden here is already insane. People who live in other parts of the country just don't understand. In an ideal world Christie would be able to cut somewhere else and use that money to pay for the tunnel but it's not an ideal world. NJ also gets the short end of the stick from the Port Authority of NY/NJ. That's money that should be paying for projects like the tunnel.

 

[Brainonska511]

As an NJ resident I think he did the right thing. The tax burden here is already insane. People who live in other parts of the country just don't understand. In an ideal world Christie would be able to cut somewhere else and use that money to pay for the tunnel but it's not an ideal world. NJ also gets the short end of the stick from the Port Authority of NY/NJ. That's money that should be paying for projects like the tunnel.

Why would the Port Authority of NY & NJ pay for it? They don't run or control NJT.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Why would the Port Authority of NY & NJ pay for it? They don't run or control NJT.

They run the existing PATH system. Now explain to me why my bridge tolls are paying for the construction of the Freedom Tower at the world trade center site.

 

[Brainonska511]

They run the existing PATH system. Now explain to me why my bridge tolls are paying for the construction of the Freedom Tower at the world trade center site.

Port Authority owns that property. And the PATH system is not NJT. The ARC tunnel project was strictly for building more NJT lines into NYC.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

Port Authority owns that property. And the PATH system is not NJT. The ARC tunnel project was strictly for building more NJT lines into NYC.

The ARC tunnel was NJT because the PA is spending its budget on other projects like the freedom tower. The fact that PA owns the WTC site is not the point. I asked why NJ commuters are paying for a NYC redevelopment project that seems inconsistent with the Port Authority's mandate. If the PA was actually following its mandate they would be doing projects like the ARC tunnel that improve transportation.

 

[K1052]

The Feds were kicking in $3B, the Port Authority $3B, and NJ $2.7B. Even with the possible cost overruns the project would have been a massive win for NJ.

As it stands now there will be no additional room for NJT to expand service into NYC for a generation (ARC took 25 years to get to this point). Meanwhile the MTA plows ahead on the East Side Access which will double the amount of people that can get into Manhattan from Long Island and the Second Ave Subway, both of which stand as good contenders to receive the 3B in federal dollars NJ pissed away.

Christie just did an excellent job of hobbling his state's growth potential for the next several decades.

 

[K1052]

The ARC tunnel was NJT because the PA is spending its budget on other projects like the freedom tower. The fact that PA owns the WTC site is not the point. I asked why NJ commuters are paying for a NYC redevelopment project that seems inconsistent with the Port Authority's mandate. If the PA was actually following its mandate they would be doing projects like the ARC tunnel that improve transportation.

NJ was paying for less than 1/3rd of the projected cost. Certinaly there would be overruns but the economic benefits of fast 1 seat rides into the south edge of Midtown (and later into GCT once water tunnel construction is complete at the end of this decade) would have been enormous.

 

[K1052]

a link is necessary but was that particular tunnel the best way to do it? i mean the big dig is nice but holy crap did it overrun.

Some new tunnel is going to be required. The present tunnels in service for NJT and Amtrak are over 100 years old and are at capacity (with no redundancy). A bridge is impractical because of the huge approaches (land $$$) that would be needed so unless they want to convert the Lincoln Tunnel to rail there isn't a way around it.

 

[manimal]

The Feds were kicking in $3B, the Port Authority $3B, and NJ $2.7B. Even with the possible cost overruns the project would have been a massive win for NJ.

As it stands now there will be no additional room for NJT to expand service into NYC for a generation (ARC took 25 years to get to this point). Meanwhile the MTA plows ahead on the East Side Access which will double the amount of people that can get into Manhattan from Long Island and the Second Ave Subway, both of which stand as good contenders to receive the 3B in federal dollars NJ pissed away.

Christie just did an excellent job of hobbling his state's growth potential for the next several decades.

This sums it up pretty well.

 

[the DRIZZLE]

The Feds were kicking in $3B, the Port Authority $3B, and NJ $2.7B. Even with the possible cost overruns the project would have been a massive win for NJ.

As it stands now there will be no additional room for NJT to expand service into NYC for a generation (ARC took 25 years to get to this point). Meanwhile the MTA plows ahead on the East Side Access which will double the amount of people that can get into Manhattan from Long Island and the Second Ave Subway, both of which stand as good contenders to receive the 3B in federal dollars NJ pissed away.

Christie just did an excellent job of hobbling his state's growth potential for the next several decades.

My understanding is NJ would be on hook for 100% of the overruns, so if the project cost 15B instead of 9 it could have cost NJ 8.7B vs 2.7.

 

[Praxis1452]

Pretty sure cost overruns were going to be double or something like that.

I would've liked this project to go through, but I'm glad christie is watching the budget like a hawk. Some elected official in NJ needed too for once. Perhaps he was overzealous here, but unless it's built we can't be sure how much it's going to cost, but NJ it will definitely overrun. There is absolutely no doubt about that.

 

[ShawnD1]

They run the existing PATH system. Now explain to me why my bridge tolls are paying for the construction of the Freedom Tower at the world trade center site.

Port Authority owns that property.

According to those conspiracy theory videos, it's not the port authority's job to build that tower. Larry Silverstein, the guy who blew up the world trade center, is responsible for rebuilding the towers because it was part of his lease. He got several billion dollars of insurance payout to rebuild the towers.

My understanding is NJ would be on hook for 100% of the overruns, so if the project cost 15B instead of 9 it could have cost NJ 8.7B vs 2.7.

Yikes. That would certainly explain pulling out.

 

[K1052]

My understanding is NJ would be on hook for 100% of the overruns, so if the project cost 15B instead of 9 it could have cost NJ 8.7B vs 2.7.

The final estimate done by the feds was that the project would run $1B over budget. NJ was also promised another $900M in related rail improvements directly out of the US DOT/FRA budgets to move forward, which Christie rejected.

Any cost overruns would have ended up bonded out with the rest of the project over 35+ years rendering them negotiable when weighed against the increases of property value and economic activity the state would realize. He also surrendered the single largest grant for transportation ever given to a state for such a project and killed any chance of it happening in the next 20 years. To say that US DOT will have second thoughts about granting money for large projects in the state that require a state funding match is a gross understatement.

 

[manimal]

I'm glad christie is watching the budget like a hawkt.

Like he oversaw that grant proposal that lost NJ hundreds of millions of dollars in education funding? Sure you can argue that an underling made the mistake but his office was asked to correct the problem before it became official and they neglected to fix it...

 

[alphatarget1]

The final estimate done by the feds was that the project.....

Big projects always run overbudget. It'd be wise to take what the gov't says as a grain of salt.

 

[ShawnD1]

Big projects always run overbudget. It'd be wise to take what the gov't says as a grain of salt.

You're telling me. I was helping with a design project that involved building signal systems for road ways. A few times we had to relocate wires. Can you guess why? The city beautification guy said there was a tree there. Who the fuck cares? Tear that shit up. if it was a private job, they would just rip the tree up and put a tree somewhere else, but instead we had to reroute the wires over a longer distance, we had to basically double the cable size to adjust for voltage drop, and the project probably went up by about $10,000 just because of that. All over a fucking tree.

edit:
I don't mean a big tree with huge roots. I mean the kind of tree that is about 10 feet tall and was planted by the city. it has ver ylittle root structure and can easily be pulled out. Paying some student $10 per hour to dig it out and cut roots would cost the city maybe $100.

 

[dmcowen674]

Did Christie make a mistake in cancelling the tunnel project?

No, they don't need another tunnel there.

Fix the existing egress by putting trucks in one tunnel.

It's the mixing of trucks and cars that causes all the traffic jams there.

Trucks should not be on the road during the car commute, period.

Instead of having them sleeping at night, they should be sleeping during the rush and when the rush is over they go where they have to go.

Stagger the load and there is no traffic jams anymore.

It's not rocket science

 

[K1052]

Big projects always run overbudget. It'd be wise to take what the gov't says as a grain of salt.

Generally that's true because they are spread over such a long time period, however all the construction bids on ARC came in well under what was estimated because of the economy. New York knows the value of these kind of projects which is why the MTA is spending a fortune on the East Side Access for the LIRR which will increase capacity and shorten the commutes of 200,000 people by 30 minutes.

By Christie pretending that NYC had the most to gain from ARC (when NJ stood to gain $18B alone in property valuation and countless billions in taxes/services from new residents) and thus should pay for it he shot the state in the foot.

 

[alphatarget1]

Generally that's true because they are spread over such a long time period, however all the construction bids on ARC came in well under what was estimated because of the economy. New York knows the value of these kind of projects which is why the MTA is spending a fortune on the East Side Access for the LIRR which will increase capacity and shorten the commutes of 200,000 people by 30 minutes.

By Christie pretending that NYC had the most to gain from ARC (when NJ stood to gain $18B alone in property valuation and countless billions in taxes/services from new residents) and thus should pay for it he shot the state in the foot.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to cancel a project that has already been planned for so long. I'm involved in the industry (sort of) and civil engineer projects only benefit my profession. With that said, I just think that DOTs/Agencies need to do a much better job explaining to people how much things will (potentially) cost. I used to live in the SF Bay Area and the SF-Oakland Bay Bridge was originally projected to cost 700 million. It'll be 3 years late and it's estimated to cost 5.4 billion now. That's a 770% overrun. Did construction materials prices skyrocket by 770% during that time period? Labor costs certainly didn't. Some politics (Schwarzenegger tried to make them change the design so it becomes cheaper) slowed the construction, but I think that's just a drop in the bucket. How is that acceptable to taxpayers?

With that said, interest rates are pretty low right now still. It'd probably make more sense to sell bonds and pay it off with inflated dollars later on.