Did anyone not see this coming?

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Pretty sure we saw this coming as the Bush Admin openly admitted they were listening in on international calls that originated from foreign lands to people within the country.

Sadly many of us(me included) tended to side with security and let the system vet itself.
Lesson learned. They need to have a warrant imo.

The day the legislation was passed lawsuits were filed challenging its legality under the first and fourth amendments.

Chance of success? Who knows?

But providing 'past and future immunity' for violating the 4th amendment just doesn't seem to pass the constitutional smell test regardless of ideology - even under the 'clear and present danger' Holmes test.

Can you suppress/violate the rights of all under the guise of 'national security'? I don't think I'm comfortable going there ...

 

[Ldir]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: JS80
Yet they still support his bid for Dictatorship?

Obama is not pursuing a bid for dictatorship, and no they wouldn't support him if he was.

Please don't go down the "control of all 3 branches simultaneously is a dictatorship" path.

JS80 is a troll. Ignore him. Obama was wrong on this. John Dubya McCain was wrong on almost everything. That is a big difference.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Originally posted by: Robor
Thanks for the freedumbs GWB&Co. How long until 01/20/09?

Last time I checked, Obama voted for the updated legislation on this issue, so we're left with no good option......

Watch, when it's done under Obama, they'll say it's for the better of our country.

So why did so many here slam Obama when he voted for the new FISA legislation?

IIRC the reason Obama voted for the FISA legislation was because he didn't feel the Telcos should be held accountable when the Feds who directed them weren't. I completely agree there.

Do you have a link where he explained it? All I remember seeing was him saying "it's not perfect, but it's the best we can do". I still think that it was a terrible decision on his part.

I agree that everyone involved should have been prosecuted, but if some people get away it still doesn't make what the phone companies did any less illegal. Just because OJ probably got away with murder doesn't mean we shouldn't prosecute murderers.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Do you have a link where he explained it? All I remember seeing was him saying "it's not perfect, but it's the best we can do". I still think that it was a terrible decision on his part.

I agree that everyone involved should have been prosecuted, but if some people get away it still doesn't make what the phone companies did any less illegal. Just because OJ probably got away with murder doesn't mean we shouldn't prosecute murderers.

I was assuming the same as eskimospy, that Obama was just going along with the legislation because "it's the best we can do."

some more insight into his (Obama's) reasoning would be nice. If anyone has a link.

 

[RightIsWrong]

I like pancakes.

 

[DealMonkey]

I was surprised not to find a thread already in existence concerning this issue. IMHO this is the Abu Grahib of the intel community. Spying on Americans? Yeah, I never believed for a second that the government could be trusted with expanded surveillence powers. Good grief...

Exclusive: Inside Account of U.S. Eavesdropping on Americans
U.S. Officers' "Phone Sex" Intercepted; Senate Demanding Answers

Despite pledges by President George W. Bush and American intelligence officials to the contrary, hundreds of US citizens overseas have been eavesdropped on as they called friends and family back home, according to two former military intercept operators who worked at the giant National Security Agency (NSA) center in Fort Gordon, Georgia.

The chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Jay Rockefeller (D-WV), called the allegations "extremely disturbing" and said the committee has begun its own examination.

"We have requested all relevant information from the Bush Administration," Rockefeller said Thursday. "The Committee will take whatever action is necessary."

"These were just really everyday, average, ordinary Americans who happened to be in the Middle East, in our area of intercept and happened to be making these phone calls on satellite phones," said Adrienne Kinne, a 31-year old US Army Reserves Arab linguist assigned to a special military program at the NSA's Back Hall at Fort Gordon from November 2001 to 2003.

Kinne described the contents of the calls as "personal, private things with Americans who are not in any way, shape or form associated with anything to do with terrorism."

[... snip ...]

Link

Thankfully, the Senate Intel Comm is probing this as we speak.

A Senate panel is probing claims top secret government workers eavesdropped on communications from American service members, journalists and aid workers overseas.

Announcing the probe, Senate intelligence committee chair Jay Rockefeller (D-WV) called the allegations, made on ABC News, "extremely disturbing."

House intelligence committee chair Silvestre Reyes is also looking for answers from the National Security Agency (NSA) about its apparent violations of Americans' privacy. "The NSA let us know that your story may be coming down the pipeline," a spokeswoman for Reyes told ABC News Thursday. "We went ahead and made an inquiry and have been in contact with NSA We're awaiting further information."

Off of Capitol Hill, reaction was swift and sharp to the news that U.S. intelligence officials listened in to hundreds of private conversations, including pillow talk between U.S. military officers and their spouses.

"This outrageous episode is a reminder that government spying powers can be used to invade the most intimate thoughts of even the most trustworthy people," noted Lisa Graves of the Center for National Security Studies, and a former Justice Department official.

[...]

Link

Go figure, another Bush-era affront to our civil liberties. I swear, Bush and Company have done more damage to this country than Osama Bin Ladin ever has.

:roll:

 

[RichardE]

So the NSA was listening to phone calls from the Military to outside contacts (as in outside the combat zone) during a war and you think that is wrong?

If this program had adverted a massive ambush/plan/attack on our troups it would have been hailed as a great idea.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: RichardE
So the NSA was listening to phone calls from the Military to outside contacts (as in outside the combat zone) during a war and you think that is wrong?

If this program had adverted a massive ambush/plan/attack on our troups it would have been hailed as a great idea.

Calls from military personnel to their significant others (i.e. wives, girlfriends)? Yeah, I hardly think it's appropriate to eavesdrop on those calls. Let me guess - you do?

 

[chucky2]

Ahhh the BDS is still running strong I see...

Can someone explain to me: Just HowTF is a machine that's monitoring calls from overseas into the US supposed to know the call is personal, and, most importantly, actually non-WoT related, when it kicks in the recorders and/or flags it?

/BDS
/thread

F'ing loons...

Chuck

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: chucky2
Ahhh the BDS is still running strong I see...

Can someone explain to me: Just HowTF is a machine that's monitoring calls from overseas into the US supposed to know the call is personal, and, most importantly, actually non-WoT related, when it kicks in the recorders and/or flags it?

/BDS
/thread

F'ing loons...

Chuck

Quick to judge but you clearly haven't read the link. People monitoring knew exactly what they were listening to and continued to do it.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Go figure, another Bush-era affront to our civil liberties. I swear, Bush and Company have done more damage to this country than Osama Bin Ladin ever has.

:roll:

Just wait until pro government types replace our current pro government types, while being hailed as a victory for the American people as they seek to expand this sort of thing.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: chucky2
Ahhh the BDS is still running strong I see...

Can someone explain to me: Just HowTF is a machine that's monitoring calls from overseas into the US supposed to know the call is personal, and, most importantly, actually non-WoT related, when it kicks in the recorders and/or flags it?

/BDS
/thread

F'ing loons...

Chuck

You should probably read the links before you comment in a thread, and certainly before you call the people in the thread 'loons'.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: chucky2
Ahhh the BDS is still running strong I see...

Can someone explain to me: Just HowTF is a machine that's monitoring calls from overseas into the US supposed to know the call is personal, and, most importantly, actually non-WoT related, when it kicks in the recorders and/or flags it?

/BDS
/thread

F'ing loons...

Chuck

UTTER, EPIC, TOTAL, AND COMPLETE FAILURE

Get out of my country.

 

[chrisho]

What, a government agency doing stuff they shouldn't?

Who would have thought such a thing.


Yet the same people who decry this are more than willing to let this same government (like its going to change in 09) to take over health care.

As to the story, go read elsewhere. You will discover the same thing. This is the NSA overseas. As such they are not completely addressed by the laws here. They do however have to sort through millions of calls and it their own checks that turn up violations. If anything its a good thing we here about them. Now those not exposed through channels make you think, so what is this "leakers" justification for not using the process?

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: chucky2
Ahhh the BDS is still running strong I see...

Can someone explain to me: Just HowTF is a machine that's monitoring calls from overseas into the US supposed to know the call is personal, and, most importantly, actually non-WoT related, when it kicks in the recorders and/or flags it?

/BDS
/thread

F'ing loons...

Chuck

You should probably read the links before you comment in a thread, and certainly before you call the people in the thread 'loons'.

You should probably read, and understand what you're reading, in the link:

From Page 2:

'"alerting office mates to certain time codes of "cuts" that were available on each operator's computer. '


'"Hey, check this out," Faulk says he would be told, "there's good phone sex or there's some pillow talk, pull up this call, it's really funny, go check it out."'

This wasn't the program being improperly setup, this was operators not taking their job seriously, and their superiors not having someone managing them correctly. That doesn't mean the program is just collecting bad or useless intel, it just means these jokers need 1.) an @ss chewing, and 2.) better management.

From Page 3 of the link (just in case you missed it):

'Some times, Kinne and Faulk said, the intercepts helped identify possible terror planning in Iraq and saved American lives.


"IED's were disarmed before they exploded, that people who were intending to harm US forces were captured ahead of time," Faulk said.'

So essentially: Doing this is useful (regardless if it violates someone's privacy or not), and does produce results. But, there needs to be better onsite management to ensure professionalism is maintained.

//BDS
//thread

Gezus...and you all will vote in this upcoming election, based on your warped views above...F'ing scary... :Q

Chuck

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: chucky2
Ahhh the BDS is still running strong I see...

Can someone explain to me: Just HowTF is a machine that's monitoring calls from overseas into the US supposed to know the call is personal, and, most importantly, actually non-WoT related, when it kicks in the recorders and/or flags it?

/BDS
/thread

F'ing loons...

Chuck

UTTER, EPIC, TOTAL, AND COMPLETE FAILURE

Get out of my country.

You are the "failure", since you obviously cannot read.

See my response above to eskimospy.

Please, for the good of the country, do not vote.

Chuck

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: chucky2

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: chucky2
Ahhh the BDS is still running strong I see...

Can someone explain to me: Just HowTF is a machine that's monitoring calls from overseas into the US supposed to know the call is personal, and, most importantly, actually non-WoT related, when it kicks in the recorders and/or flags it?

/BDS
/thread

F'ing loons...

Chuck

You should probably read the links before you comment in a thread, and certainly before you call the people in the thread 'loons'.

You should probably read, and understand what you're reading, in the link:

From Page 2:

'"alerting office mates to certain time codes of "cuts" that were available on each operator's computer. '


'"Hey, check this out," Faulk says he would be told, "there's good phone sex or there's some pillow talk, pull up this call, it's really funny, go check it out."'

This wasn't the program being improperly setup, this was operators not taking their job seriously, and their superiors not having someone managing them correctly. That doesn't mean the program is just collecting bad or useless intel, it just means these jokers need 1.) an @ss chewing, and 2.) better management.

From Page 3 of the link (just in case you missed it):

'Some times, Kinne and Faulk said, the intercepts helped identify possible terror planning in Iraq and saved American lives.


"IED's were disarmed before they exploded, that people who were intending to harm US forces were captured ahead of time," Faulk said.'

So essentially: Doing this is useful (regardless if it violates someone's privacy or not), and does produce results. But, there needs to be better onsite management to ensure professionalism is maintained.

//BDS
//thread

Gezus...and you all will vote in this upcoming election, based on your warped views above...F'ing scary... :Q

Chuck

I understand this perfectly, far better than you do it would appear. You only come to your conclusions because of how you dishonestly and/or ignorantly phrase the question.

The question is NOT (as you imply) whether we should monitor communications coming in and out of a war zone. The question is if there should be oversight of those doing this monitoring. The point has always been, from the very beginning, that this sort of extrajudicial oversight had a huge potential for abuse, because the agency had no one to answer to but itself.

This has turned out to be entirely correct. You should really dial down the insults in this thread, as you are showing a shocking level of ignorance of the topic for how strongly you are phrasing your opinions.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: chucky2
Ahhh the BDS is still running strong I see...

Can someone explain to me: Just HowTF is a machine that's monitoring calls from overseas into the US supposed to know the call is personal, and, most importantly, actually non-WoT related, when it kicks in the recorders and/or flags it?

/BDS
/thread

F'ing loons...

Chuck

Your lame attempt to defend notwithstanding, the operators abusing this program represent ABUSE. Period. The expanded surveillence powers that we foolishly granted our government are now being abused. It doesn't matter how, or by whom, it just matters that they are.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: chucky2

Ahhh the BDS is still running strong I see...

Ahhh... The brain dead Bushwhacko sycophants are still among us I see...

It's obvious you're severely reading challenged, or you'd know that the OP's article reports ACTUAL abuse by those ACTUALLY entrusted to safeguard our Constitutional rights, not to abuse them by monitoring private calls between American citizens and sharing copies of "juicy" pillow talk and other sensitive, personal conversations for their amusement.

This our one many examples of how your Traitor In Chief and his criminal cabal of traitors, murderers, torturers, war criminals and war profiteers have been shredding the rights guaranteed to every American citizen under our once great, once honored U.S. Constitution since they came to office.

This was predictable and predicted when the Patriot Act.

This is what we will have to face in the future if your wannabe Traitor In Chief and his lipstick dipstick are elected.

You must be the child they left behind. As a matter of fact, you can kiss my left behind. :thumbsdown: :|

Originally posted by: chrisho

As to the story, go read elsewhere. You will discover the same thing. This is the NSA overseas. As such they are not completely addressed by the laws here.

Go read the Constitution. It doesn't matter anymore because they've already dispensed with it, but at least, you'll know something about the rights you were so willing to surrender... and already have lost.

RIP - U.S. Constitution, 1789 - 2001

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: RichardE
So the NSA was listening to phone calls from the Military to outside contacts (as in outside the combat zone) during a war and you think that is wrong?

If this program had adverted a massive ambush/plan/attack on our troups it would have been hailed as a great idea.

Calls from military personnel to their significant others (i.e. wives, girlfriends)? Yeah, I hardly think it's appropriate to eavesdrop on those calls. Let me guess - you do?

Because never in the history of the military has the wive or gf of a soldier ever become a traitor, nor has a soldier ever given information to there wife that the enemy could use.

Again, why is this an issue? The country is still at war incase you forgot, which I know it is easy to do seeying as you are just using the good ol USA credit card to ignore the spending the war costs.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: RichardE
So the NSA was listening to phone calls from the Military to outside contacts (as in outside the combat zone) during a war and you think that is wrong?

If this program had adverted a massive ambush/plan/attack on our troups it would have been hailed as a great idea.

Calls from military personnel to their significant others (i.e. wives, girlfriends)? Yeah, I hardly think it's appropriate to eavesdrop on those calls. Let me guess - you do?

Because never in the history of the military has the wive or gf of a soldier ever become a traitor, nor has a soldier ever given information to there wife that the enemy could use.

Again, why is this an issue? The country is still at war incase you forgot, which I know it is easy to do seeying as you are just using the good ol USA credit card to ignore the spending the war costs.

The fact that you have to ask why it's an issue speaks volumes about you. Frankly, I can't believe I even have to explain why. It's called the "Terrorist Surveillence Act" for a good reason. It's supposed to surveil TERRORISTS. Furthermore, at least one person on the line is supposed to NOT be an American. So in the instances raised by these whistleblowers, the program is failing on BOTH counts. Both parties in the call are Americans. Neither party is a terrorist.

Are you this dense on purpose?!?

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

I understand this perfectly, far better than you do it would appear. You only come to your conclusions because of how you dishonestly and/or ignorantly phrase the question.

The question is NOT (as you imply) whether we should monitor communications coming in and out of a war zone. The question is if there should be oversight of those doing this monitoring. The point has always been, from the very beginning, that this sort of extrajudicial oversight had a huge potential for abuse, because the agency had no one to answer to but itself.

And how, in reality, are you going to get oversight from a non-NSA group, on a NSA operation, to work? Have the CIA do it? Create yet another branch of the service to monitor the monitors? And when they become chummy with the people they work with day in day out, and that provide them "entertainment" from their monotonous job, we will create another group to monitor the monitors that monitor the NSA? Tell me where the theory ends and reality will begin?

So, knowing someone other than NSA monitoring a NSA operation will never happen, what was your point?

This has turned out to be entirely correct.

The only thing that has turned out to be entirely correct is human nature, and the near impossibility it is to prevent it. The only solution is properly managed oversight, yet, you propose no realistic options for such, you just go on a whine fest. Then you have the DealMonkey's and The Macro's of the thread going on their delusional 'in a perfect world' rants...

You should really dial down the insults in this thread, as you are showing a shocking level of ignorance of the topic for how strongly you are phrasing your opinions.

Amazing observation, as a large part of my job is oversight (which I'm, shockingly, good at)....you were saying something about ignorance???

Chuck

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: PokerGuy

Originally posted by: Robor
Thanks for the freedumbs GWB&Co. How long until 01/20/09?

Last time I checked, Obama voted for the updated legislation on this issue, so we're left with no good option......

Watch, when it's done under Obama, they'll say it's for the better of our country.

So why did so many here slam Obama when he voted for the new FISA legislation?

Yet they still support his bid for Dictatorship?

Maybe because he's the lesser of 2 evils by a long shot?

It is a very sad day when almost all Americans believe their only choice is to vote for evil. They may disagree on which club is the lesser evil but most agree that one or the other is the lesser of two evils.

I have to give it to the clubs though. They have done a hellofa job at keeping both sides at each others throats thereby guaranteeing their continued power.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: RichardE
So the NSA was listening to phone calls from the Military to outside contacts (as in outside the combat zone) during a war and you think that is wrong?

If this program had adverted a massive ambush/plan/attack on our troups it would have been hailed as a great idea.

Calls from military personnel to their significant others (i.e. wives, girlfriends)? Yeah, I hardly think it's appropriate to eavesdrop on those calls. Let me guess - you do?

Because never in the history of the military has the wive or gf of a soldier ever become a traitor, nor has a soldier ever given information to there wife that the enemy could use.

Again, why is this an issue? The country is still at war incase you forgot, which I know it is easy to do seeying as you are just using the good ol USA credit card to ignore the spending the war costs.

I think you are making the same mistake that chucky2 is. The question is not if we should monitor these communications, we always have, we always will. The issue is that this monitoring is now taking place with zero oversight outside of the agency itself... which is a horrible horrible idea. As a rule, you don't allow an agency that has much to gain out of violating people's civil rights to oversee its protection of those civil rights. (much to gain as in if they completely ignored the constitution they would probably find out more information)

This is why the police have to check with a judge before they search your house, and this is the same reason why an external authority should oversee this monitoring activity.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: chucky2
Ahhh the BDS is still running strong I see...

Can someone explain to me: Just HowTF is a machine that's monitoring calls from overseas into the US supposed to know the call is personal, and, most importantly, actually non-WoT related, when it kicks in the recorders and/or flags it?

/BDS
/thread

F'ing loons...

Chuck

Your lame attempt to defend notwithstanding, the operators abusing this program represent ABUSE. Period. The expanded surveillence powers that we foolishly granted our government are now being abused. It doesn't matter how, or by whom, it just matters that they are.

And your realistic solution, while still maintaining the effectiveness of the program, was what again? I hear you whining, but, I don't see you offering any solutions.

P.S. You say foolish, but the whistleblowers themselves indicate the program was effective...so, exactly what was "foolish" again? Be specific...

Chuck