Desktop building challenge!

[Quietus]

Hi all,

First off, I hope I'm posting this in the right forum. If I didn't, please either direct me to the right forum or, if you're a mod, could you be so kind as to move it? *puppy eyes*

Okay, here goes: A few years ago I was totally on-track of computers and building good systems. So, naturally, when I decided to get a whole new rig after saving up lots, I figured I'd be able to do a half-decent job. I'm not a super-tweaker, but eh. So... I start browsing, and after a few days of constant research my eyes are bloodshot and I'm about to tear hair out. My poor old, outdated brain can't comprehend it all. As an added bonus I moved to Canada from Europe, and thus have few "connections" here. Hence why, in a bout of desperation, I came here to leech on all of your combined super-knowledge *bows*

I'm trying to build a future-resistant system. I know it's semi-impossible, but I'm willing to occasionally upgrade and have made a few requirements for my system based on that. So, here goes:

1) Budget
First off, I'm in Canada, and have up to 550 or 600 Canadian to spend, which is roughly speaking its equal in US. I'm not going to pout over 10 bucks difference.

2) Location
I'm in Canada, so only retailers which ship to Canada can be used for the components. NCIX, Tiger Direct and such.

3) AM 2 socket
I'm aiming for AMD's press release that their AM3 processors are going to work on AM2 sockets, sans hyper-threading, which I'm entirely fine with. That's way more upgrade-able than Intel has to offer.

4) What can be skimped on?
Basically everything not essential for the PC running. I have a monitor, mouse, keyboard, a good set of speakers, I'm fine with on-board sound, I have a DVD Burner etc.
If there's good reasoning to right now skip on a graphics card and use on-board for a few months until I can dish out the money for a half-decent PCI-X 16 card, that's okay too. I play Company of Heroes and Red Orchestra (UT2K4 engine) which need to run well on the system. I'd love to play Oblivion too, so...
Oh, and I have an OS.

5) What cannot be skimped on?
I definately want DDR 2 to be on the board, and PCI X16 , preferable 2 slots of 'em to do that fancy SLI thing. I will also need 1 gig of ram.

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I'm aware all these requirements might seem incredibly demanding, and I might even seem a bit lazy that I don't "just find my own stuff". But seriously, guys, I'm going nuts over this. I definately need this computer to be a good investment, I simply can't afford to make mistakes here.

Thank you SO much in advance for helping me!

-Quietus

 

[cheesehead]

First, 775 is likely going to be around longer than AM3. Don't worry about that.
Second, you're in the wrong forum.

I'd go with the following:

-e6300. It's a good CPU, very reasonably priced too. And it overclocks very, very well - a 30% overclock is regarded as sub-par.
-7900GT/7950GT or similar video card, about $200-$230. Alternately, get a 8$ PCI video card, don't run any games for a month, and wait for the prices to drop a little more.
-1024mb of DDR800. I like Corsair, personally, but there's lots of choices. Expect to pay around $125.
-Cheap HDD. Save your money here. Get the cheapest used HDD you can - just make sure it's 7200rpm or greater and has 8+mb of cache. I reccomend Western Digital and Seagate, as both of these brands are known for longevity.
-Gigabyte DS3 - about $110.

 

[Quietus]

Thanks so much for the reply! Very helpful!

To be honest, when it comes to the actual sockets and the mechanics of a computer, I'm not too well-versed. I understand the actual hardware and terms and stuff, but how long a socket will be around is a mystery to me.

Why do you think Intel's socket will be around much longer? Since I understood from alot of reviews that AM3 sockets are meant to sort of make up for the lack of real performance of AM2 compared to Intel's Core 2 Duo, I sort of figured it would outdo Intel's. I figured that meant they will switch to a new and better socket, making my poor mobo obsolete.
Is there some website or review or press-release or somesuch I could read on this? I've not found this particular info about Intel's socket, just AMD banging drums happily to tell us we're not screwed with an AM2 mobo.

I'm really not disputing what you're saying, just wondering where I can read up on it.

About the videocard:
Would something like this help me through for a couple months?
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/...item-details.asp?EdpNo=2746205&CatId=0
It's a Biostar GeForce 7100 GS. I'm currently running a GeForce TI4200 128 MB, and I do need a significant improvement. Since building a new 'puter is a bit expensive, 200 or 230 for a graphics card might be a bit out of my budget, is there something you'd recommend between 150 and 200 ?

Cheap HDD: Sounds like a good plan, I think. 160 gigs 7200 RPM for about 90 bucks seems do-able, which should last me a while. I suppose you can't configure RAID 0 with only 1 HDD, eh? I'm kind of interested in running RAID since it's supposedly much faster.

Gigabyte DS3:
I can find this one:
http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/...tem-details.asp?EdpNo=2529929&CatId=13
which is priced 190,-
But it does say it supports quad-core, which is kind of interesting to me since that might be the thing that beats the AM3 socket, right?

Then one last question:
There's this thing called SLI and Crossfire. In most mobo cases, I'd have to dish out an extra 50 for it, and I'd pretty much be forced to immediately buy an expensive GFX card with it since it has no on-board graphics. Since I'd be buying an expensive GFX card in the future anyway, this might be an option to do. But is it worth it? Do you feel SLI/Crossfire are really going to be the new standard? I'd like this computer to last me, fairly up-to-date with few upgrades, to last me 4 years or so. Should I go for the SLI/Crossfire mobos?

You've helped me awesomely much, to be honest I'd hardly even SEEN quad-core intel-stuff....! Thanks so much!

 

[shadowofthesun]

About the videocard: Would something like this help me through for a couple months? http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/...item-details.asp?EdpNo=2746205&CatId=0 It's a Biostar GeForce 7100 GS. I'm currently running a GeForce TI4200 128 MB, and I do need a significant improvement. Since building a new 'puter is a bit expensive, 200 or 230 for a graphics card might be a bit out of my budget, is there something you'd recommend between 150 and 200 ?

the 7100 GS is pretty bad as a card, the only relevant benchmark I could find came from some person's 3D mark06 scores, he obtained a mere 220-
3d mark results
This card should be marginally better than onboard, and worse than the 7300.
In your price range, I would shoot for a 7600 GT.

BEST PCI-E CARD FOR ~$130: Geforce 7600 GT Codename: G73, 90 nanometer technology 12 PixelShaders, 5 VertexShaders, 12 TextureUnits, 8 RasterOperatorUnits 128-bit memory bus 560 Mhz core, 700 Mhz DDR (1400 Mhz Effective) Memory The 7600 GT is an amazing card in this price range, sporting new SM 3.0 technology and very high clock speeds to deliver excellent performance. Its weakest feature is its 128-bit memory bus, but its high memory speeds offset that disadvantage and make it competitive with 256-bit cards like the X850 XT. I will mention that ATI's new competitor for the 7600 GT may arrive in November: the X1650 XT. With 24 pixel shaders, it may have the power to compete with or even beat the 7600 GT in this price range, but it is as yet unreleased. Still, if you're purchasing in November, check if the X1650 XT is available yet and how its benchmarks compare to those of the 7600 GT.

source

Honestly, though, you could save quite a bit gaming on onboard until you get your expensive card.

Cheap HDD: Sounds like a good plan, I think. 160 gigs 7200 RPM for about 90 bucks seems do-able, which should last me a while. I suppose you can't configure RAID 0 with only 1 HDD, eh? I'm kind of interested in running RAID since it's supposedly much faster.

No, you can't run RAID with one HDD. RAID 0 offers increased performace via "data striping", which AFAIK is the equivalent of splitting program data between two hard drives so that both can be accessed at once, functionally doubling the access speed. However, it has an increased risk of failure. RAID 1, however, is "data mirroring" and replicates one HDD on the other, protecting you from drive failure but offering no preformance increase. There are other flavors of RAID, I've seen 0+1, 2, and 5, and these appear to be combinations of data striping and mirroring, but some require more than 2 HDD's.

Gigabyte DS3: I can find this one: http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/...tem-details.asp?EdpNo=2529929&CatId=13 which is priced 190,- But it does say it supports quad-core, which is kind of interesting to me since that might be the thing that beats the AM3 socket, right?

The Core 2 Quad Extreme is already out (QX7700 if my memory serves me right), lower priced Core 2 Quads are around the corner. It's really what AM3 and Quad-FX were looking to counter, whether they will do so remains to be seen.

Then one last question: There's this thing called SLI and Crossfire. In most mobo cases, I'd have to dish out an extra 50 for it, and I'd pretty much be forced to immediately buy an expensive GFX card with it since it has no on-board graphics. Since I'd be buying an expensive GFX card in the future anyway, this might be an option to do. But is it worth it? Do you feel SLI/Crossfire are really going to be the new standard? I'd like this computer to last me, fairly up-to-date with few upgrades, to last me 4 years or so. Should I go for the SLI/Crossfire mobos?

Crossfire/SLI is generally a waste of money except at the extreme high end (2x 8800 GTX's, for example) because they will almost always be beaten by a cheaper, more powerful single card solution. Two 7300 GT's, for example, will not beat a single 7600 range card. I personally would buy the board with the onboard gfx, wait for DX10 cards to drop in price a bit (ATI's DX10 card will help bring down prices), and spring on one mid range DX10 card. (8600 GT, for example, or X2600-series) That's just me though, I don't know your specific budgetary restrictions or other circumstances.

Best of luck!

 

[Quietus]

Thanks for the replies!

the 7100 GS is pretty bad as a card, the only relevant benchmark I could find came from some person's 3D mark06 scores, he obtained a mere 220-
3d mark results
This card should be marginally better than onboard, and worse than the 7300.
In your price range, I would shoot for a 7600 GT.

Phew! Good thing you replied, I thought it was a fairly good card! Better do some more researching, then Thanks!

Honestly, though, you could save quite a bit gaming on onboard until you get your expensive card.

I thought the same, but hoping Oblivion or Company of Heroes will run on that is lost hope, isn't it?

1024 x 768 resolution with low settings is all I really need, although that's what I'm currently running (in CoH), and then my upgrade wouldn't be a step up....

No, you can't run RAID with one HDD. RAID 0 offers increased performace via "data striping", which AFAIK is the equivalent of splitting program data between two hard drives so that both can be accessed at once, functionally doubling the access speed. However, it has an increased risk of failure. RAID 1, however, is "data mirroring" and replicates one HDD on the other, protecting you from drive failure but offering no preformance increase. There are other flavors of RAID, I've seen 0+1, 2, and 5, and these appear to be combinations of data striping and mirroring, but some require more than 2 HDD's.

Let's hope I can find some cheap HDD's which I can RAID 0, then... *pout*

The Core 2 Quad Extreme is already out (QX7700 if my memory serves me right), lower priced Core 2 Quads are around the corner. It's really what AM3 and Quad-FX were looking to counter, whether they will do so remains to be seen.
[/]

Exactly my problem.... does anyone have any sources on the whole Socket AM3 vs. Intel? It's kind of important, since Intel is distinctly more expensive.

Crossfire/SLI is generally a waste of money except at the extreme high end (2x 8800 GTX's, for example) because they will almost always be beaten by a cheaper, more powerful single card solution. Two 7300 GT's, for example, will not beat a single 7600 range card. I personally would buy the board with the onboard gfx, wait for DX10 cards to drop in price a bit (ATI's DX10 card will help bring down prices), and spring on one mid range DX10 card. (8600 GT, for example, or X2600-series) That's just me though, I don't know your specific budgetary restrictions or other circumstances.

So you don't think it's feasible that in 2 or 3 years, SLI is the standard? Will it always remain a high-budget enthusiast's thing?


Thanks for illuminating this all for me! I'm slowly getting more and more of an idea of what I'm going to go for!

*bows to all you whizzes*

 

[shadowofthesun]

Sorry for the long wait- I hope I'm not too late to help you out.


to answer your questions:

I thought the same, but hoping Oblivion or Company of Heroes will run on that is lost hope, isn't it?

If you absolutely must go for Oblivion or CoH now, spend a little more than the 7600 I previously recommended and go for either a 7900 GS or an X1950 pro. check the link I sent you before- It's pretty accurate and up-to-date.

Exactly my problem.... does anyone have any sources on the whole Socket AM3 vs. Intel? It's kind of important, since Intel is distinctly more expensive.

If you want a processor, your chocies are:
1) if you must get one now, go for the Core 2 Duo 6300- it's a great price-performance mix, like cheesehead previously said.
2) wait a little- the new 4xxx Core 2's will come out at a much lower price point, and it will give you a little more insight into what AM3 will look like.

So you don't think it's feasible that in 2 or 3 years, SLI is the standard? Will it always remain a high-budget enthusiast's thing?

SLI won't be the standard for a few reasons:
1) High overhead- it is very rare to get even 40% scaling between 1 and 2 graphics cards- which means that you are losing perhaps 60% of your graphics capabilities. This means that one newer or higher ranked card will always be faster.
2) heat- SLI generates tremendous heat
3) Power- SLI requires 2x the power of a single card solution for 1.4x the performance at most, whereas one higher ranked card may take only a tiny bit more power but give a far larger performance gain
4) space- at the very least 2 x8 PCI-E connectors are used, which is only available on higher-end enthusiast mobo's.

Hold off on SLI for now, unless you have a very compelling reason (to fill a price/performance vacancy or to own 2x the fastest cards in existance)