Denial of Science when it doesn't conform to your persepctive

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Dec 10, 2005
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If GMO is as awesome as they claim, they would want to advertise as its clearly superior to its non-GMO counterpart. Clearly they dont want to advertise. I wonder why.

They already is plenty of literature that talks about how awesome it is or could be. People are just sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming 'lalala' and spreading lots of FUD, just like the specious line of arguments of "I wonder what they're trying to hide."
 

crashtestdummy

Platinum Member
Feb 18, 2010
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Yea you'd think the scientists would figure that out... especially when trying to convince people to change their ways.

Yet rational argument all we scientists are armed with. Any appeals to emotion or spirituality are for us completely irrelevant, so why would we bother making them? It's also why scientists make terrible politicians. I have this fantasy sometimes of a president who drives policy solely by rational argument, but then I remind myself that there's no way the public would vote for someone like that.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
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Yea you'd think the scientists would figure that out... especially when trying to convince people to change their ways.

People tend to imagine most other people are essentially just like themselves; hence, most scientists, who I presume are fundamentally rational most of the time, probably assume most other people are rational as well.
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
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Yes, people deny evidence when they know something is true to the contrary, religious or not. Beliefs are powerful things.
 

fuzzybabybunny

Moderator<br>Digital & Video Cameras
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Jan 2, 2006
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Before you jump in with "but genetic engineering changes plants in ways we don't understand", realize that any changes made this way are much smaller than those we create through selective breeding. Take wheat, for instance. Most wild species of wheat are diploidic, meaning that they contain two copies of their genetic code (like us). This wheat, while reasonably nutritious, doesn't contain enough gluten to make any kind of bread beyond a tortilla. In order to make the wheat more easily consumable, it has been repeatedly hybridized to either tetraploidic (four copies, durum wheat) or hexaploidic (six copies, bread wheat). That means that one plant of "modern" (i.e. last 10k years) wheat contains the genetic content of at least three wild plants. This is a far more drastic change than what we do with genetic engineering, yet no one worries about it. If you want other examples, look at strawberries (hybrid species), almonds (wild almonds contain a substantial amount of cyanide), corn (the wild ancestor is almost inedible and tiny), and apples (since they are triploidic, nearly all members of an apple variety are grafted clones). You'll find the amount of genetic modification we've done to our food well before this century to be astounding.

I find this topic really fascinating. I'm scientific-minded and unlike the people against GMO, I don't see anything innately wrong with GMO.

With that said, my concern is still that genetic engineering will have bad consequences, *especially* if it is short-term profit driven.

So my concern isn't with GMO just by itself. My concern is with GMO + profit motive + short time spans. GMO + profit motive would be bad enough.

With selective breeding you can mix and match over long periods of time, but you're working with the already existing, natural traits of organisms that can sussessfully crossbreed. You're confined. With GMO you can do almost anything. You can engineer a plant to secrete it's own pesticide, basically engineering a super plant. And they do that. What unintended consequences could there be now? So people who eat the plant will need to wash it before cooking, but the actual sites where the pesticides are being produced are now INSIDE the organism. This is assuming that the pesticide being produced could be harmful to humans. But can people really say definitively if a pesticide is 100% safe for consumption? We have a hard enough time talking definitively about common things like Aspartame....

GMO is fine. But we need responsible GMO.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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It isn't the safety of GMO foods that cause me to go very far out of my way to avoid them. What do I care if I'm eating human DNA in my corn. The danger to GMO food is the destruction of genetic variety of crops, the destruction of independence of small farmers, the corporate dependence that patent law creates. I protest against Monsanto every chance I get. GMO foods are not a scientific issue. They are destructive of traditional values I want to preserve. I am an irrational conservative about this and will not be moved. I know that I am right to so pardon my conservative brain. You liberals who see the GMO issue only from the nutritional side, see it from a tiny perspective because the morality required for a proper prospective is missing.

You post frequently in P&N, and must have forgotten you're in discussion club. -DrPizza

Edited to correct my failure to note in which forum I was posting.
 
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Dec 10, 2005
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With selective breeding you can mix and match over long periods of time, but you're working with the already existing, natural traits of organisms that can sussessfully crossbreed. You're confined. With GMO you can do almost anything. You can engineer a plant to secrete it's own pesticide, basically engineering a super plant. And they do that. What unintended consequences could there be now? So people who eat the plant will need to wash it before cooking, but the actual sites where the pesticides are being produced are now INSIDE the organism. This is assuming that the pesticide being produced could be harmful to humans. But can people really say definitively if a pesticide is 100% safe for consumption? We have a hard enough time talking definitively about common things like Aspartame....

This right here, is a big misnomer that people like to play up. BT-corn means that instead of utilizing bacteria in the soil to produce BT (a protein) that kills some corn pests, it is now made by the corn itself. The way you describe it, it makes it sound like we've turned plants into minature chemical factories that will make all sorts of chemicals normally made in a chemical plant. If a protein that kills bugs is not harmful to humans, what real difference does it make if the plant makes it or we spray it on the plant (or rely on a symbiotic relationship with soil bacteria)?

And 'organics' are no strangers to pesticides, as a recent article in EMBO press points out:
http://embor.embopress.org/content/early/2014/01/09/embr.201338286
More serious enquiry leads to the astonishing fact that wine made from organic grapes in the EU or the USA is frequently derived from crops treated with the &#8216;organic&#8217; fungicide copper sulphate. Organic farmers may use any amount of this chemical deemed necessary for the protection of their crops, provided they take steps to minimize its accumulation in soil. In addition to copper sulphate, a long list of &#8216;natural&#8217; chemicals is allowed in organic farming in most jurisdictions, including sodium hypochlorite (aka household bleach), lime sulphur (a corrosive mixture of calcium polysulfides) and nicotine sulphate (a highly toxic compound derived from tobacco).
That's not to say that one way is better than another. The idea of 100% safety is a goal that is most likely unachievable. If I down a bottle of pesticide, I'd expect ill effects. The question comes in as to what levels are okay, and what levels are not, and it really needs to be addressed on a case-by-case basis.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/04/business/energy-environment/04weed.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

This is a big deal to me since this is exactly what you would expect to see with a monoculture. This type of shit is what eventually led to the potato famine. When you raise a monoculture of clones, evolution literally stops, but it still keeps running for all the pests, weeds, bugs, the environment is always changing, (salinity, nutrients, etc).

Its inevitable. Wish I could bonk you all on the head.

But farmers sprayed so much Roundup that weeds quickly evolved to survive it. &#8220;What we&#8217;re talking about here is Darwinian evolution in fast-forward,&#8221; Mike Owen, a weed scientist at Iowa State University, said.

Mr. Anderson, the farmer, is wrestling with a particularly tenacious species of glyphosate-resistant pest called Palmer amaranth, or pigweed, whose resistant form began seriously infesting farms in western Tennessee only last year.

Happens faster than you think.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-39-superweeds-39-epidemic-shines-spotlight-gmos-021125425.html

34% had superweeds in 2011
49% had superweeds in 2012
?? in 2013. We'll see.
 
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OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
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I don't think anyone here would argue that it isn't within the public's right to legislate such things. Certainly, we have no provision in the constitution forbidding such labels, explicitly or implicitly. The question is, it is a beneficial contribution to our society to have it? Take, for example, an ingredients list. We require disclosure of all components used in making food. The primary benefit is that people with a food allergy or other kind of dietary requirement can make sure they don't consume food that will really hurt their health.

The goal of such labeling is to create a stigmatization of GMO crops. You can say it's all about consumer choice, but embedded in there is the assumption that there is something bad about genetically engineered food. This statement is, as far as anyone has been able to show in controllable experiments, entirely unsupported.

We are left, then, with the following cost/benefit analysis for stigmatizing GMOs:

Pros:

  • Consumers are able to make an arbitrary choice on their purchases.
  • Monsanto makes a bit less money. (Is this a benefit?)
Cons:

  • Crop yields go down, meaning that we tear up more wilderness to make our food.
  • We produce more CO2 to make our food.
  • We use more insecticide per hectare of land.
  • Lower, less stable incomes for farmers.
  • Certain foods, such as the papaya and the orange, become unavailable or very expensive due to to disease.
  • Potentially wonderful humanitarian developments, such as golden rice, protein-containing cassava, and rice that can grow in contaminated soil, will not receive funding and/or will be shunned by other countries following our lead.
I think people forget how important technology is to food production. As anyone old enough will tell you, we were convinced the world was going to starve just 50 years ago. The reason it didn't was Norman Borlaug and the Green Revolution. Now there were certainly consequences to the introduction of pesticides (particularly DDT), but they were far, far, outweighed by the billion lives it likely saved. Things like BT corn and cotton provide much of the benefits of the green revolution without the consequences. Other developments have the ability to drastically increase the nutritional value of our staple crops.


Before you jump in with "but genetic engineering changes plants in ways we don't understand", realize that any changes made this way are much smaller than those we create through selective breeding. Take wheat, for instance. Most wild species of wheat are diploidic, meaning that they contain two copies of their genetic code (like us). This wheat, while reasonably nutritious, doesn't contain enough gluten to make any kind of bread beyond a tortilla. In order to make the wheat more easily consumable, it has been repeatedly hybridized to either tetraploidic (four copies, durum wheat) or hexaploidic (six copies, bread wheat). That means that one plant of "modern" (i.e. last 10k years) wheat contains the genetic content of at least three wild plants. This is a far more drastic change than what we do with genetic engineering, yet no one worries about it. If you want other examples, look at strawberries (hybrid species), almonds (wild almonds contain a substantial amount of cyanide), corn (the wild ancestor is almost inedible and tiny), and apples (since they are triploidic, nearly all members of an apple variety are grafted clones). You'll find the amount of genetic modification we've done to our food well before this century to be astounding.
Oh so you are going with the "caused the potato famine" methodology. Brilliant. I don't mind breeding plants, monocultures are a bitch though. We've tried it before we know the inevitable results.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/agriculture_02

Playing with fire is what it is. Something out of left field like a pest or the superweeds is going to cause a total crop loss one day.
 
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Feb 6, 2007
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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/04/business/energy-environment/04weed.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

This is a big deal to me since this is exactly what you would expect to see with a monoculture. This type of shit is what eventually led to the potato famine. When you raise a monoculture of clones, evolution literally stops, but it still keeps running for all the pests, weeds, bugs, the environment is always changing, (salinity, nutrients, etc).

Its inevitable. Wish I could bonk you all on the head.

Happens faster than you think.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-39-superweeds-39-epidemic-shines-spotlight-gmos-021125425.html

34% had superweeds in 2011
49% had superweeds in 2012
?? in 2013. We'll see.

Even if evolution stops for the monoculture GMO crops, the R&D teams that created them aren't going to. If the crops produced start some dramatic trend in the growth of weeds or pests threatening crop development, they can be genetically engineered in a different direction. Meanwhile, the concerns raised by the comparison to the Irish potato famine seem to ignore the fact that that horrible famine happened with traditional non-GMO crops, which doesn't exactly inspire confidence that such methods are universally safer. We can't base our application of science around speculative doomsday scenarios with little supporting evidence.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
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Even if evolution stops for the monoculture GMO crops, the R&D teams that created them aren't going to. If the crops produced start some dramatic trend in the growth of weeds or pests threatening crop development, they can be genetically engineered in a different direction. Meanwhile, the concerns raised by the comparison to the Irish potato famine seem to ignore the fact that that horrible famine happened with traditional non-GMO crops, which doesn't exactly inspire confidence that such methods are universally safer. We can't base our application of science around speculative doomsday scenarios with little supporting evidence.

They ARE monocultures. Same DNA in each plant, year after year. Just like cloned potatoes. With potatoes you replant the root that grows out of the spud instead of letting it flower and reproduce. Its the same thing, a total lack of genetic diversity. What we've done to the food supply is the same thing we've done with antibiotics. We'll run out of our bag of tricks if we don't conserve them.
 
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AViking

Platinum Member
Sep 12, 2013
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I have friends who are biologists and work with GMO crops. Although I don't understand everything they say it's very clear that most people understand almost nothing with respect to what they do and what the crops represent. It's irrational fear from what I can gather much like people being afraid that microwaves will give them cancer.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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They ARE monocultures. Same DNA in each plant, year after year. Just like cloned potatoes. With potatoes you replant the root that grows out of the spud instead of letting it flower and reproduce. Its the same thing, a total lack of genetic diversity. What we've done to the food supply is the same thing we've done with antibiotics. We'll run out of our bag of tricks if we don't conserve them.
You claim they are "monocultures" without any evidence. Your conclusion is in error, because the basis of it is incorrect. Monsanto isn't the only brand doing GMO, and even of, say corn, Monsanto has far more than 1 variety of corn.
 

Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
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Yea you'd think the scientists would figure that out... especially when trying to convince people to change their ways.

Scientists are humans. Therefore, they work to advance their own interests. They can be irrational in their pursuit of fame.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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Scientists are humans. Therefore, they work to advance their own interests. They can be irrational in their pursuit of fame.
Are you claiming that all scientists pursue fame? Because it appears you're making a blanket statement. Some of the most famous scientists did not want fame - they just wanted to be left alone most of the time.
 

Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
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Are you claiming that all scientists pursue fame? Because it appears you're making a blanket statement. Some of the most famous scientists did not want fame - they just wanted to be left alone most of the time.

Did I say that?

can 1 (k
abreve.gif
n; k
schwa.gif
n when unstressed)aux.v. Past tense could (k
oobreve.gif
d)

1.
a. Used to indicate physical or mental ability: I can carry both suitcases. Can you remember the war?
b. Used to indicate possession of a specified power, right, or privilege: The President can veto congressional bills.
c. Used to indicate possession of a specified capability or skill: I can tune the harpsichord as well as play it.

2. a. Used to indicate possibility or probability: I wonder if my long lost neighbor can still be alive. Such things can and do happen.
b. Used to indicate that which is permitted, as by conscience or feelings: One can hardly blame you for being upset.
c. Used to indicate probability or possibility under the specified circumstances: They can hardly have intended to do that.

3. Usage Problem Used to request or grant permission: Can I be excused?



Can
and may are most frequently interchangeable in senses denoting possibility; because the possibility of one's doing something may depend on another's acquiescence, they have also become interchangeable in the sense denoting permission. The use of can to ask or grant permission has been common since the 19th century and is well established, although some commentators feel may is more appropriate in formal contexts. May is relatively rare in negative constructions (mayn't is not common); cannot and can't are usual in such contexts.
 
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Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
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Scientists are humans. Therefore, they work to advance their own interests. They can be irrational in their pursuit of fame.

Are you claiming that all scientists pursue fame? Because it appears you're making a blanket statement. Some of the most famous scientists did not want fame - they just wanted to be left alone most of the time.

Did I say that?


Yes, you did. While you define the word "can", you fail to realize your use of "can" is in relation to irrationality, not if scientists pursue fame, which your statement says. Remove the "can be irrational" from your statement above and you're left with essentially "They pursue fame," to paraphrase.

The "can be irrational" implies some scientists are rational in their pursuit of fame, which only leads one to read that you are implying all scientists pursue fame.
 

Pray To Jesus

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2011
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Nope. You are reading it wrong.

{X} can Y.

Doesn't mean [all {X} must Y] or [all {X} must (-Y)].
 
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Ancalagon44

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2010
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Um all of our crops have been monoculture for a long time now. Heck, half of them cant even reproduce without our aid - notice that modern bananas produce no seed. Avocados could never reproduce naturally anymore - they depend upon a land animal that doesnt exist anymore. Strawberries and peppermint are infertile hybrids.

So to say that GMO exposes us to the danger of monoculture cropping completely misses the point - we have been exposed to the danger of monoculture cropping for centuries now, and its precisely why things like the potato famine and tobacco mosaic virus happened.
 

jhbball

Platinum Member
Mar 20, 2002
2,917
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Scientists are humans. Therefore, they work to advance their own interests. They can be irrational in their pursuit of fame.

The men who wrote the books of the bible are humans. Therefore, they work to advance their own interests. They can be irrational in their pursuit of fame.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
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The NYTimes ran this piece yesterday. Briefly, it's about a councilman from the main island of Hawaii and his quest to justify a yes or no vote on a local attempt to ban GMO foods. In the end, he votes no to the ban, based on all the scientific evidence that shows that there are really no problems with GMO.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/05/us/on-hawaii-a-lonely-quest-for-facts-about-gmos.html

What I find interesting about the whole debate is just the rampant denialism. The shouts of conspiracy when studies don't conform to people's preconceived notions. Any scientist that comes out in favor of GMO (either in opinion or an actual researcher) is immediately labeled an industry shill. Public opinion and the councilmen were favoring the anecdote over the evidence. And frankly, to put it in political perspective, the left denies the science behind GMOs much like the right denies the science behind anthropogenic climate change, simple because it doesn't conform to their 'gut instincts'.

As a scientist, it saddens me to see public debate poisoned by so much misinformation and outright denial of facts that contradict the position that someone wants to hold.

I believe "denial of science" is often quite rational and appropriate. I prefer the term 'skepticism' myself.

E.g., I've been reading a lengthy article on a birth control device known as NuvaRing and the deadly complications that are now emerging. The problem is actually broader than just that one product, but includes all BC devices that are based upon third-generation progestins. It is now known that use of third-generation progestins are twice as likely to cause dangerous, if not fatal, blood clots as earlier progestins.

From the consumers' POV I think it matters not one bit that news of the increased risk comes from new data just emerging or that the manufacturers suppressed data and knew this before. Dead is dead, and your heirs will probably capitalize either way.

Those who were skeptical and did not trust science's assurance that the newer progestins were safe are probably quite happy (and no doubt some alive when they otherwise may not have been). This is not a unique incident either.

Accordingly, even though science tells us that GMO are safe I do not think it unreasonable that some remain skeptical.

People are criticized for being "sheeple", but then criticized as irrational etc when they don't blindly trust/follow someone else, in this case it happens to be scientists.

When someone asks "do you believe science?" I think it's really two questions.

One question is whether you believe honest and capable scientists relying upon the best and most complete info to-date have reached the correct conclusion.

The second is whether science has found all the relevant info and reached the correct conclusion.

E.g., as to the question of whether humans originated in Africa, the answer under #1 is yes. IMO, the correct answer under #2 is no, I do not feel confident about that at all. Scientific conclusions will change as new info emerges. Some new info may not be found for many years. Some highly relevant info may never be found (e.g., deep on ocean floor). So, it is possible that in the future we'll find new info that radically changes that theory. It's also possible that humans originated elsewhere and later migrated to Africa but we'll never find that evidence (it's been destroyed or is inaccessible) and we'll be forever burdened by an incorrect 'fact'.

Science is not infallible, yet too many act as though it is.

Fern
 

ThinClient

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2013
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The men who wrote the books of the bible are humans. Therefore, they work to advance their own interests. They can be irrational in their pursuit of fame.

or persuit of power by means of falsehood and fear mongering
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
14,359
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I believe "denial of science" is often quite rational and appropriate. I prefer the term 'skepticism' myself.
I agree with this. But we have to be carful that skepticism does not fall into the realm of paranoia.

Those who were skeptical and did not trust science's assurance that the newer progestins were safe are probably quite happy (and no doubt some alive when they otherwise may not have been). This is not a unique incident either.

This argument is useless. I can say it about just about anything and be right.
A plane crashes, so those that are skeptical about a large metal object can fly is justified in their skepticism and quite happy about it at that.


Skepticism asks:
Is there enough evidence to come to a conclusion?
Can we trust the source of that evidence? (or can we reproduce it)
Is there no evidence contrary to the conclusion? (or can we find other just as valid conclusions with the evidence)

If the answers to all three are yes we as skeptics have to accept the conclusion.

Accordingly, even though science tells us that GMO are safe I do not think it unreasonable that some remain skeptical.

All three of these questions are answered yes, so it is unreasonable to remain skeptical.

People are criticized for being "sheeple", but then criticized as irrational etc when they don't blindly trust/follow someone else, in this case it happens to be scientists.
No one asks you to blindly follow, but to consider the evidence.

When someone asks "do you believe science?" I think it's really two questions.

One question is whether you believe honest and capable scientists relying upon the best and most complete info to-date have reached the correct conclusion.

Yes, this is basically my three questions.

The second is whether science has found all the relevant info and reached the correct conclusion.

No. This is an impossible bar to pass. No matter how much we know there will always be more. We can never find all the information. We can only have enough to come to a conclusion. New evidence might come that is contrary to that conclusion. When that happens we have reason to be skeptical again. But to be skeptical because new evidence might come to light is not skepticism, that is paranoia.

Science is not infallible, yet too many act as though it is.
Science never claims to be infallible, it only claims to be the best way we have of understanding the universe.
 
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