Dems upset at Bush Carrier Landing "stunt"

[SuperTool]

Originally posted by: Corn

How do you know if I was or wasn't outraged. You are making assumptions about my feelings about Clinton. You don't know my position on Clinton's military dealings. Personally, I think Kosovo was a huge mistake. You just want to divert attention and blaming Clinton. Typical GOP tactic.

First of all, I have not blamed Clinton for anything. The fact that he used the military for his photo-ops was merely an exercise in pointing out the hypocrisy of those who are now complaining about Bush but were silent when Clinton did it.

You are making assumptions. You don't know what people did or didn't say.

I didn't have a problem with Clinton doing it then, nor do I have a problem with Bush doing it now. Why do you act so suprised when you see a politician politicking? Give me a fscking break!

I am not suprised, but it's good to see he is not getting a free pass

You're right, I don't know if you were or weren't outraged--it's hard to determine that when you were silent. If it wasn't enough of an issue to vocalize your outrage before, why is it now? (Hint, you can easily demonstrate your outrage by simply linking to an example of it).

Was there a thread on this between the time I joined the board and Clinton left the White House?

"I am estimating $1 Million..."
Based on what data exactly? Just something someone said that you are eager to parrot?

It's a guess. Personally I think it was higher, but 1Million is definitely in the ballpark. Unless you can show otherwise, mine is as good as yours. It wasn't zero. But if you can present the exact cost figure and back that up with facts, I am willing to go with that.

 

[Crimson]

Mr. Bush is our Commander in Chief, which means he is the ultimate head of our military.. If he wants to drive all our carriers around in circles in Lake Michigan, its his authority to do that.. A speech from an aircraft carrier in which the life of every single person on board depends on the decisions he makes, is certainly acceptable..

Was it a political speech? Most certainly... Was it also a heartfelt thanks to all military personel around the world? You bet.. I see nothing wrong with that. As a matter of fact, I would have been disapointed if Bush had NOT done something like this.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: Corn
How do you know if I was or wasn't outraged. You are making assumptions about my feelings about Clinton. You don't know my position on Clinton's military dealings. Personally, I think Kosovo was a huge mistake. You just want to divert attention and blaming Clinton. Typical GOP tactic.
I am estimating $1 Million, it might have been more, might have been less, but whatever it was it wasnt' zero. Unless you can provide evidence of the exact cost, my guess is as good as yours.
Considering it costs $1Billion/day to run our military even without war, I don't think $1Million figure is out of the ballpark. But continue trolling about details, without adressing the principal problem of using the military for political gains.

Carrier operating costs

Nimitz-class nuclear carrier $235.4/year 1993

To make this easy, we will just say normal operations take million/day for normal daily operations.
Nimitz carriers are refueled every 25 years.
Carriers always have air support running
Carriers always have support ships, an extra 5k sailors.
Carriers have about 5000 sailors, 10k in the task force.
Carriers sitting at dock do not cost $0/day to operate. Given that this carrier is 4 months behind schedule coming home, there is probably a much larger bill in work to be done waiting at the port.

Did the presidents flight cause extra sorties for security? Maybe, but I cant think of a more secure place to be honest.
Did this cause extra fuel to be burned? No as everyone arrived on time.
Were the vikings that flew to carrier going to be flown that day? Planes are either being fixed or being flown.
Sailors are paid the same no matter if the are on ship or off.
Most of the costs for carrier operations are fixed, so bringin the President on board would hardly affect the daily budget.


Your million dollar number for the trip is a wag at best. I just do not see how how landing an extra 2 vikings could cost $1 million.

 

[AndrewR]

Originally posted by: 308nato

Originally posted by: SuperTool

Originally posted by: Corn
A single Clinton photo-op cost the US taxpayers $1 billion.

...this stunt is just a drop in the bucket....

A drop in the bucket indeed!

It is indeed, considering how Dubya's Iraq war photo-op is setting us back $100 Billion.

Damn. JP4 must have gotten hella expensive since I fueled a B-52 last time.

Psst, you're dating yourself -- we use JP-8 now.

 

[308nato]

Psst, you're dating yourself -- we use JP-8 now.

Yes. I am an old fart.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: 308nato

Psst, you're dating yourself -- we use JP-8 now.

Yes. I am an old fart.

Yes, but are you older than a BUFF?

 

[NightTrain]

Originally posted by: 308nato
Heh, I would like to see that fatass Clintoon in a flight suit. It would look like 2 hogs fighting in a gunney sack.

Just a couple of "I got a little willy Willy's" stunts"....

*50th anniversary of D-Day, Normandy beach...our all pain feeling commander in chief sadly strolls the beaches of Normandy deeply reflecting on the sacrifice of American youth in the past. He kneels...the cameras catch him as he takes some stones from the beach and silently places them in the shape of a cross where so many had died June 1944. It was a real tear jerker.

The problem is, the Normandy beaches have no stones of that sort. A staffer had carried them from up the road and placed them there. Fatty's handlers had carefully orchestrated the whole scene.

Don't forget during that trip, his staff lifted every towel, robe, and ash tray that wasn't nailed down onboard the USS GW. Ahh the memories....sometimes it really is a shame that an adult has to be in the WH...the inbred hillbilly set from Dogpatch was more entertaining. Every morning greeted me with "The White House is denying reports that...."

 

[308nato]

Yes, but are you older than a BUFF?

Not quite...we both still get the job done though.

 

[konichiwa]

Originally posted by: 308nato
Heh, I would like to see that fatass Clintoon in a flight suit. It would look like 2 hogs fighting in a gunney sack.

Just a couple of "I got a little willy Willy's" stunts"....

*50th anniversary of D-Day, Normandy beach...our all pain feeling commander in chief sadly strolls the beaches of Normandy deeply reflecting on the sacrifice of American youth in the past. He kneels...the cameras catch him as he takes some stones from the beach and silently places them in the shape of a cross where so many had died June 1944. It was a real tear jerker.

The problem is, the Normandy beaches have no stones of that sort. A staffer had carried them from up the road and placed them there. Fatty's handlers had carefully orchestrated the whole scene.

*Sicily-Rome American War Cemetery in Nettuno Italy...the commander once again is at his finest..painfully caught on tape viewing the 7862 american graves there. Each headstone with a flag gently snapping in a calm breeze. But wait...whats this?....a flag has fallen. The cameras pan as needledick picks the colors up from the sacred ground and reverently replaces the flag over the fallen GI's grave.

Problem was, a staffer had tossed the flag on the ground in a well choreagraphed photo op.

First of all, your constant use of disparaing terms towards Clinton just devalues your remarks. You should learn that if you're trying to get a point across, swearing and belittling only makes you look inferior. "fatty, needledick"?

Not to mention that your aversion to Clinton's stunts seem to be at the lack of moral integrity. Do you really think Bush's appearance on the carrier was heartfelt and passionate? Please.

 

[WhiteKnight77]

Originally posted by: 308nato


Damn. JP4 must have gotten hella expensive since I fueled a B-52 last time.

They use JP8 now for everything. JP4 and JP5 was phased out due to the increase in flashpoint of JP8. Safer for all involved. I remember hot fueling my share (we crew members had to do the fueling) of CH-46s (or what ever else was stationed at Tustin MCAS(H).

 

[DZip]

Simple--- If President Bush did it, it must be wrong... If Bush didn't steal the election, Al Gore would have been on that plane and it would have been the right thing to do.

Show your support..... make sure you vote in 2004

 

[KenGr]

If anyone is really concerned about the "fuel" issue, it actually saves money to keep the carrier at sea. While at sea the ship runs on reactor power. When it enters port, the reactors are shut down and the ship is powered from shore electrical service, which the Navy must pay for. And it's not a small cost. The shore power supply for a carrier is equivalent to a small town. The reactor power is effectively free from a fuel basis. The long life cores are replaced on a fixed schedule for strategic purposes, not because they are used up. (I'll accept the earlier post that they now have 25 year cores. I was a Design Engineer on the Nimitz and it had a 15 year core when we first built it but we were working on 20, 25 and 30 year core designs.)

 

[YingYang]

I like to give thanks to Bush for his carrier landing "stunt" on the Lincoln.
I used to refer to the Abraham Lincoln as the "Stinkin Lincoln" because during the first Gulf War we were docked in Norfolk, Virginia (which by the way was wasting tax dollars because we were paying for the electricity from shore power because the reactors were shut down) when the bombs were being dropped on Baghdad. We did not see any action during the war and no one has really heard of the Lincoln.
It's quite a contrast now that the Lincoln is in the Lime light. I won't be calling the Lincoln the "Stinkin Lincoln anymore"


picture
picture1

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: DZip
Simple--- If President Bush did it, it must be wrong... If Bush didn't steal the election, Al Gore would have been on that plane and it would have been the right thing to do.

Show your support..... make sure you vote in 2004

The Democrats are just doing a pathetic impression of their Republicans Counterparts during the terms of Clinton. Like their Republican Counterparts, they too look and sound like whiny little bitches and should just STFU and get on with running the country. Hell the next thing you know the Democrats are going to try and keep a Boy and his Father seperated in a failed attempt to villify the sitting president or waste 40 million dollars in a foolish attempt to dig up dirt on him.

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: DZip
Simple--- If President Bush did it, it must be wrong... If Bush didn't steal the election, Al Gore would have been on that plane and it would have been the right thing to do.

Show your support..... make sure you vote in 2004

The Democrats are just doing a pathetic impression of their Republicans Counterparts during the terms of Clinton. Like their Republican Counterparts, they too look and sound like whiny little bitches and should just STFU and get on with running the country. Hell the next thing you know the Democrats are going to try and keep a Boy and his Father seperated in a failed attempt to villify the sitting president or waste 40 million dollars in a foolish attempt to dig up dirt on him.

It's all politics nowadays anyway. You just have to select from the lesser of 2 evils come election day

 

[ConclamoLudus]

Do you know how much $$$ it cost just to research a nuclear powered aircraft carrier? Put that on his tab too, why don't you. How dare he exploit the atom in its shining moment as a political maneuver.

Bush made war. Bush get photo after war. Let the man hold up his fish. If its truly just a political move, then have some faith in the people to see it as such. We'll see how much of a difference it makes.

 

[ElFenix]

since hes CINC visiting the troops should be an essential part of his duties...

 

[Moonbeam]

NYTimes:

On the day of the speech, the White House said the carrier was too far from shore for Bush to arrive by helicopter. Since then, however, the White House has conceded that was not the case.
-------------------
I guess lying becomes such a habit that they do it even when clearly, I hope clearly, it's just gotta bo clearly, the President didn't really do anything wrong. It was a great moment in history right. He had to use a jet cause the carrier was too far away. Just kidding!

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
NYTimes:

On the day of the speech, the White House said the carrier was too far from shore for Bush to arrive by helicopter. Since then, however, the White House has conceded that was not the case.
-------------------
I guess lying becomes such a habit that they do it even when clearly, I hope clearly, it's just gotta bo clearly, the President didn't really do anything wrong. It was a great moment in history right. He had to use a jet cause the carrier was too far away. Just kidding!

I'm sure it was an oversight or secret "National Security Reasons".

 

[Iwentsouth]

Bill clinton gave speeches on three aircraft carriers during his term as president.

Do not see why Bush shouldn't.

I think it is important for our president to visit our troops.

 

[Fencer128]

Originally posted by: Iwentsouth
Bill clinton gave speeches on three aircraft carriers during his term as president.

Do not see why Bush shouldn't.

I think it is important for our president to visit our troops.

I'm guessing the issue isn't about the speech or visiting troops - it's about the manner in which it occured.

Cheers,

Andy

 

[heartsurgeon]

it's massively entertaining to watch the democrats grind their teeth flat ovr this,
and in the process MAKE the news cycle last longer..their still showing pictures of Bush landing on the carrier!

if those happless demos had said nothing, it would have been over in one day!

they have no rudder...

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
it's massively entertaining to watch the democrats grind their teeth flat ovr this,
and in the process MAKE the news cycle last longer..their still showing pictures of Bush landing on the carrier!

if those happless demos had said nothing, it would have been over in one day!

they have no rudder...

They don't seem to be as vigorous as the Petty Partisan Politicians of the Republican Party during Clinton's term though. Thought they are giving it their best effort, the Democrats haven't mastered the High Pitched Squeal that their Republican Counterparts mastered in the late 90's. Fasce it, even though he is a wanker Dashele pales in comparison to Gingrich,Lott and Delay when it comes to Red Assed Whining. Unfortunately the Democrats won't be satisfied until they reach those levels.

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by: dudleydocker
And who didn't see this coming?

I have to laugh when I hear this:

Earlier in the day, other House Democrats released a parody of the MasterCard advertisements, alleging the Lincoln stayed at sea an extra day at a cost of up to $1 million. The tagline on the ad ? "Shameless."

and then think back to the almost "rent by the hour" approach to the Lincoln bedroom that Clinton had.


Face it for what it is: Democratic whining for only having Michael Dukakis in a tank to compare! I still laugh when I think of that! And the fact that it comes from the likes of 'KKK' Byrd and Henry (quite possibly the ugliest man in the world) Waxman! C'mon! If you're gonna raise a stink, at least use a representative who won't be a laughing-stock!

Take it for what is really was: A masterfully choreographed speech using a symbol of US power as a backdrop. The carrier landing was just an added extra. Hell, why NOT do it?!

I remember how the right behave towards Clinton. So I have to ask, If Clinton had done something like this how would the right had responded?

 

[bulldawg]

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: DZip
Simple--- If President Bush did it, it must be wrong... If Bush didn't steal the election, Al Gore would have been on that plane and it would have been the right thing to do.

Show your support..... make sure you vote in 2004

The Democrats are just doing a pathetic impression of their Republicans Counterparts during the terms of Clinton. Like their Republican Counterparts, they too look and sound like whiny little bitches and should just STFU and get on with running the country. Hell the next thing you know the Democrats are going to try and keep a Boy and his Father seperated in a failed attempt to villify the sitting president or waste 40 million dollars in a foolish attempt to dig up dirt on him.

It's all politics nowadays anyway. You just have to select from the lesser of 2 evils come election day

For the most part, this is true. Its a shame that there isn't a worthwhile independent candidate on the horizon. Most likely the GOP would have reacted to Clinton in the same manner. But to me, it doesn't matter how he got to the carrier. I voted for Bush, but am becoming more and more concerned about some of this admin's actions. Especially in privacy matters, etc. I'll vote for him again unless some miracle happens, simply because I despise the Democrat's ideas. Sad that our government has come to this. It's really hard to encourage non-voters to get involved in the process.