-
We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.
Dems near accord on health care bill
Page 5 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
No, he didn't, but to some people it hardly matters what he actually says.
woolfe9999
Diamond Member
No, he said, we will come to the summit with our proposal and you come to the summit with yours. We will then see if we can work out a compromize bill.
- wolf
bob4432
Lifer
i believe the pres proposal is just a starting ground, so give it a bit of time, i am sure stuff will get worked back in through back door deals :twisted:
Patranus
Diamond Member
Until recently, the Democrats had a super majority in the Senate, House of Representatives, and control of the White House.
The GOP couldn't legislatively stop jack shit.
The Democrats couldn't muster the votes because DEMOCRATS wouldn't vote for the legislation.
The Democrats lost their super majority in the Senate BECAUSE they kept pushing legislation the American people didn't want. Senator Brown ran on the platform that he would be the 41st vote against health care reform.
He also said that the Democrats were going to pass what is on the table with 51 votes. He is simply trying to distract the nation with one hand (bipartisanship) while doing something else with the other hand.
theeedude
Lifer
41/100 = 41% don't confuse that with a majority. If Dems can pass it with 51 votes, more power to them.
werepossum
Elite Member
I think he said "all options are open"; it was a Republican who said Obama had promised to start from scratch. It's now pretty clear though that he and the Democrats are going to pass what they can (Senate bill) and continue adding socialization (and pacifying the left) with some combination of additional bills, signing statements, reconciliation and executive branch action, whether or not they have to break rules to do so. Not much reason for the Pubbies to even show up except to get some air time for their own ideas, as at best they could add some pork.
If they do so they will be out of office very quickly. The majority of the people don't support the current plans, which Obama appears to just be pushing the senate version. Obama has also said he wasn't explaining the bill or goals good enough for the people to understand and that's why they don't support it (basically calling the public stupid).
No, Americans just don't want what he's peddling. It's also clear the Obama is following his plans to remove the insurance industry with this new notion of wanting to regulate and control premiums. He's not going to stop until he's destroyed everything.
theeedude
Lifer
Great, then American people can vote politicians in 2010 to repeal Obama Care if they really don't want to. Right now we have to go on what American people already voted for, and that is a 59 to 41 democrat majority in senate, majority in the house, and presidency.
woolfe9999
Diamond Member
That's the paradox of bi-partisanship. If either side just assumes that the other side is not negotiating in good faith, then they too will not negotiate in good faith. Since you are clearly biased on the subject - you don't like democrats in general or the their health bill in particular - be aware that this same shoe can always be on the other foot. It's a recipe for perpetual gridlock, no matter who is in power.
- wolf
Patranus
Diamond Member
The irony about this is that by using reconciliation to pass this legislation it will turn Obama into a lame duck for the next 2.5 years.
He is holding a gun to his head because he wants to look like he is doing something while this will be the last piece of major legislation passed during his administration.
He is holding a gun to his head because he wants to look like he is doing something while this will be the last piece of major legislation passed during his administration.
Last edited:
werepossum
Elite Member
EVERYONE is clearly biased, not just people who disagree with you. The difference is that the Democrats are announcing to everyone who will listen what they are going to do. They then expect the Republicans to negotiate in good faith - but why bother when the Dems are already very publicly going ahead with their own plan? At most a minor Republican idea or two might end up being tacked on to the final bill(s) - and probably for political purposes. It would be like Iran telling us it had decided Israel must be destroyed this month, but that it's willing to meet to negotiate Israel's fate.
Gridlock actually works better for me than big government. I predict the Dems will break the Senate rules to pass some version of health care reform, lose the House and perhaps the Senate, and in the Senate block any attempt to repeal it. The Pubbies will then refuse to fund it and we'll have health care even more screwed up, which will make the Dems say "See? A free market solution has been tried and it failed, we gotta have single payer." We're going to end up with the worst single payer system in the world, with trial lawyers taking out millions, bright minds fleeing health care, and every group lobbying for its own pet privileges.
Patranus
Diamond Member
And that is the advantage of the conservative options compared to the "progressive" options.
Conservatives give the user choice while the "progressive" options are filled with regulations and mandates.
Even if you disagree with the conservative platform, it allows YOU to make a choice and YOU to take ownership and YOU the power to fix something where YOU see a problem.
The "progressive" platform takes away your CHOICE, gives GOVERNMENT ownership, and takes POWER out of your hands.
Conservatives want to empower people and allow them to make their own decisions. "Progressives" want the government to take away power and choice from the individual because they think people are too stupid to make their own decisions.
It is funny that nothing in the conservative plan stops states or "progressives" from using the free market to accomplish their goals however, the "progressives" want everyone be forced by the nightly hand of the federal government to do health care "their way".
Choice vs force....which side are you on?
Last edited:
woolfe9999
Diamond Member
This is exactly the problem I am pointing to. You are assuming because they have a plan, which is very close to legislation that passed the Senate after months of deliberation, that they are going to disregard the republican input. Based on that assumption, then of course there is no point in the repubs taking it seriously.
Now the difference between us is this: I do not assume that the dems are negotiating in good faith. I also just don't assume, in kneejerk fashion, that they aren't. I look at it this way: where is the harm in negotiating in good faith? There isn't any. Yet, if you always, reflexively assume that your ideological opponent is acting in bad faith, then you have a built-in, self-affirming excuse for always acting in bad faith yourself. This mentality is part of the logjam in Washington which is making it impossible for it to serve the public interest. And members of the general public, who are themselves partisan in the way they view things, are part of the problem. And by the way, that includes something you might like, such as agreeing to cut spending to reduce the deficit. Even "small government" types should realize that gridlock is and will continue to be a problem for fiscal responsibility in government.
Now if I'm going to be a cynic, which is all the rage, I will assume, for purposes of discussion, that there is zero legitimate, civic minded inclination toward bi-partisanship in the dem camp. That leaves us in the domain of realpolitik. In that domain, my best educated guess is that the notion of passing something with 51 votes is pure bluff on the part of the dems. It is meant to motivate the repubs into compromizing on healthcare reform. One the one hand, they agree to incorporate several repub ideas while keeping the basic structure of their bill intact - the carrot - while on the other, there is a threat to pass a more left wing bill without them - the stick.
If the dems could pass a bill with reconciliation, they well may have already done so. Indeed, they had the time to ram the bill through in the time it took to get Brown seated. But they didn't do that either. It is doubtful that reconciliation would even work, and even if it did, the political consequences to the dems would be very poor.
OTOH, there are two scenarios that can come out of a summit. One, where they get enough repubs on board for a bi-partisan bill, works out best of all for the dems politically. They would get the lion's share of credit for passing a bi-partisan bill. The other scenario is no compromize from the repubs, in which case we get no healthcare reform, and after a summit in which dems are busy caving to the repubs on several issues, on national television, they will blame this on the repubs. I think its a win-win for the dems either way, with the first scenario (a bi-partisan bill), being the bigger win. Ramming it through would be a gigantic lose, so from where I sit, I don't think that's going to happen.
- wolf
Last edited:
RaistlinZ
Diamond Member
Republicans STILL haven't offered their own health care reform bill stating how many people will be covered, how much it will cost, how it will help small businesses, and how it will not add to the deficit.
We've been at this for a year now and all Repubs have done is try to stall and block without offering a plan of their own. Meanwhile health care costs are set to rise another 10% this year, and Repubs say that is what the people want? Please.
We've been at this for a year now and all Repubs have done is try to stall and block without offering a plan of their own. Meanwhile health care costs are set to rise another 10% this year, and Repubs say that is what the people want? Please.
woolfe9999
Diamond Member
The repubs actually did put forth several bills. In essence, their bills cost a lot less, and insure far fewer people, according to the CBO.
- wolf
Patranus
Diamond Member
Less than 3% of the population cannot obtain coverage.
The remainder of those who are uninsured CAN afford insurance. These people do not need legislation to FORCE them to buy insurance as they are CHOOSING to NOT buy it. We all know however that "progressives" are not for choice rather government control so this is not surprising.
The fact of the matter is that the Democrats see that their amazing social policy (Medicare) is bankrupt and will continue to bleed money as more and more people move from the private sector onto Medicare.
The pool of those who the government can cost shift 30% of the tab of medicare onto is shrinking. The Democrats see the writing on the wall and will do anything to mandate coverage so that Medicare can continue to bleed this country dry.
Last edited:
umbrella39
Lifer
Oh yeah, here we go with this bs about how everyone can already afford health care again...
soccerballtux
Lifer
I never considered that, that's a great point.
SS is headed for the same wall. Combined, the SS and Medicare taxes are going to turn into a 2nd income tax.
her209
No Lifer
Anyone can afford insurance that only kicks in after X thousand dollars and covers only X, Y, and Z procedures and tests while excluding A, B, and C.
Last edited:
Xellos2099
Platinum Member
If the democrat REFUSE to have tort reform, there is no need for discussion. Democrat didn't EVEN attempt to discuss it.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 24K
-
-
