Dems near accord on health care bill

[Ozoned]

I'm a full time economics student, im 27, i have a pre existing condition. Insurance for me alone is over $540 a month if i can get covered at all (most companies deny me entirely).

If i fall and break my leg, im bankrupt.

This is okay in america?

Do you think that your failure to plan for events that are likely should place a burden on the rest of society?

 

[werepossum]

No, "reconcilliation" is a manoeuver that pertains strictly to matters of budget (e.g., taxes and the like) and is exempt from the cloture rules requiring 60 votes. I.e., bills under the reconciliation process require only 51 votes.

But using the reconcilliation process means a stripped down HC bill.

The only way to get a bigger HC reform bill through now is if the House passes the Senate version. The Senate version has already gone through cloture and 60 votes. If the House and Senate in conference amend the current Senate bill at all, it must again pass through cloture in the Senate. That won't happen since Brown's election.

I.e., you're confusing the two options.

Fern

I should have said regarding reconciliation not under reconciliation. It's my understanding that the Democrat (or at least the Reid-Pelosi) plan is to pass the exact Senate bill in the House thereby avoiding reconciliation entirely. A second bill would immediately originate in the House to fix the left's problems with the Senate bill and persuade the left to vote for the Senate bill. That's pretty much what Wolf said I think, except he is thinking the second bill will be rolled into the first using reconciliation whereas I think it will more likely be a stand-alone bill, probably not passed but enacted via a signing statement and/or executive order since it stands little chance of surviving a Senate filibuster. If they attempt to roll two fundamentally different bills, neither of which the public likes, into one using reconciliation just to avoid the filibuster then there will be a massive outcry and an immediate legal challenge.

At this point it's hard to say what is going on with the Dems. Reid & Pelosi are moving full steam ahead to pass the Senate bill while somehow correcting the left's problems with it. Obama is supposedly going to reveal his health care plan tomorrow and says he will sit down with Republicans on the 25th to start from scratch. At this point it's difficult to see how anyone could take Obama at his word on health care when there is a bill posed to pass without a single Republican vote. It will be interesting to see if the Wednesday meeting even still takes place.

Jaskalas - so true!

MotF Bane - that's true of pretty much every government program. Here in Tennessee we attempted to do the same using TennCare, which nominally replaced Medicare in our state but was also opened up to people who could not get insurance (pre-existing conditions) or could not afford it. The result was the program quickly going under and eligibility being restricted to those eligible for Medicare. There are even restrictions (such as number of prescriptions) not present in Medicare. Providing health care for all without breaking the bank is a difficult proposition at best.

 

[Throckmorton]

I should have said regarding reconciliation not under reconciliation. It's my understanding that the Democrat (or at least the Reid-Pelosi) plan is to pass the exact Senate bill in the House thereby avoiding reconciliation entirely. A second bill would immediately originate in the House to fix the left's problems with the Senate bill and persuade the left to vote for the Senate bill. That's pretty much what Wolf said I think, except he is thinking the second bill will be rolled into the first using reconciliation whereas I think it will more likely be a stand-alone bill, probably not passed but enacted via a signing statement and/or executive order since it stands little chance of surviving a Senate filibuster. If they attempt to roll two fundamentally different bills, neither of which the public likes, into one using reconciliation just to avoid the filibuster then there will be a massive outcry and an immediate legal challenge.

At this point it's hard to say what is going on with the Dems. Reid & Pelosi are moving full steam ahead to pass the Senate bill while somehow correcting the left's problems with it. Obama is supposedly going to reveal his health care plan tomorrow and says he will sit down with Republicans on the 25th to start from scratch. At this point it's difficult to see how anyone could take Obama at his word on health care when there is a bill posed to pass without a single Republican vote. It will be interesting to see if the Wednesday meeting even still takes place.

Jaskalas - so true!

MotF Bane - that's true of pretty much every government program. Here in Tennessee we attempted to do the same using TennCare, which nominally replaced Medicare in our state but was also opened up to people who could not get insurance (pre-existing conditions) or could not afford it. The result was the program quickly going under and eligibility being restricted to those eligible for Medicare. There are even restrictions (such as number of prescriptions) not present in Medicare. Providing health care for all without breaking the bank is a difficult proposition at best.

The proble with TennCare is adverse selection... Of course people who need it opt in, and people who don't opt out. That's why we absolutely need a mandate to have any kind of health reform.

 

[First]

Do you think that your failure to plan for events that are likely should place a burden on the rest of society?

lmao, what? So if a person makes a mistake of not planning something important at some point in their life, the result should be that he either averts a broken leg with insurance, or files for bankruptcy? You fake conservatives are a riot.😀

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

My favorite part is that you voted for Bush.

Really? :awe:

I'd love to see what tune you would sing if you were layed off, lapsed on health insurance, and then got a cancer diagnosis. You feel above everyone else because your life and well being have never been in jeopardy. You find it easier to say "fuck em" to those who run into trouble in our cut throat society. Quite sad really.

Indeed. The arrogance and complete lack of compassion from some is appalling. Now granted, everyone shouldn't be getting free triple bypass surgeries and hip replacements, but for many who have lost their jobs, the reality is if you break your leg, your choices are either go bankrupt getting it fixed or just "walk it off". This is completely unacceptable, and those who were fortunate in life to never have to deal with this adversity should be counting their blessings. Instead, they look down their noses at the "less fortunate do-nothings" and say "tough crap". I'd hate to see how they'd react if they ever found themselves in a less-than-fortunate situation, and believe me, it can happen in an instant...

 

[werepossum]

The proble with TennCare is adverse selection... Of course people who need it opt in, and people who don't opt out. That's why we absolutely need a mandate to have any kind of health reform.

That and a total lack of preparation - the state had no idea what each insured cost them, so they had no idea what they had to charge (or otherwise fund) to break even. IMO they should have contracted with BCBS rather than attempting to build such a bureaucracy from scratch in a couple years.

 

[spidey07]

Really? :awe:



Indeed. The arrogance and complete lack of compassion from some is appalling. Now granted, everyone shouldn't be getting free triple bypass surgeries and hip replacements, but for many who have lost their jobs, the reality is if you break your leg, your choices are either go bankrupt getting it fixed or just "walk it off". This is completely unacceptable, and those who were fortunate in life to never have to deal with this adversity should be counting their blessings. Instead, they look down their noses at the "less fortunate do-nothings" and say "tough crap". I'd hate to see how they'd react if they ever found themselves in a less-than-fortunate situation, and believe me, it can happen in an instant...

If you lose your job there are laws currently in place that allow you to continue paying for your insurance. If you don't want that you can go to another group plan or individual coverage. Health insurance isn't a right, it's a responsibility. It's also a choice and as such has consequences to that choice.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

If you lose your job there are laws currently in place that allow you to continue paying for your insurance. If you don't want that you can go to another group plan or individual coverage. Health insurance isn't a right, it's a responsibility. It's also a choice and as such has consequences to that choice.

Do you know how little unemployment pays?
Do you know how much COBRA costs?
Do you know how much unsubsidized private insurance costs*? Yes, sorry, but your "cheap" and "excellent" private insurance through your employer is heavily subsidized by *gasp* the "gub'ment" through tax subsidies to your employer! 😱
Do you know how much an ER visit costs without insurance?
Do you know how much an extended hospital stay costs without insurance?
Do you truly believe that when a family's primary breadwinner loses a job, that it is just easy to go out and pay for a mortgage, private insurance, food, electric, water, etc. without a job? Are you truly that blind?

I reckon that you have never been unemployed with a family, a mortgage, etc. before. It is truly showing in your ignorance and your clinging to the ridiculous talking points. The sooner you open your eyes and get off of the talking points, the better. Too many like you, on both sides of the spectrum, who cling to their ideologies instead of investigating facts, facing reality and actually dealing with the (huge) problem at hand.

*Even the "cheap and affordable" private plans still cost a good bit of coin, and they barely cover anything. It's almost not worth it because you'll still go bankrupt after all of the co-payments, coinsurance payments and benefit limits. Let's not even get started on those dreaded words: "lapse of coverage" and/or "pre-existing condition". See, unlike you, I have actually done research on the matter instead of living in my comfortable little bubble, so I know what I'm talking about.

 

[StageLeft]

Something has to be done. I assume this bill will be mostly garbage like most government bills recently. I am more sympathetic to a single payor system as time goes on. I see nothing changing for the good in healthcare in this country. Less people appear to have it and those of us who do have it are paying more. It's just a cluster fvck. I'm at no meaningful risk of losing my insurance in the near future but I feel worse for those who are.

 

[werepossum]

Something has to be done. I assume this bill will be mostly garbage like most government bills recently. I am more sympathetic to a single payor system as time goes on. I see nothing changing for the good in healthcare in this country. Less people appear to have it and those of us who do have it are paying more. It's just a cluster fvck. I'm at no meaningful risk of losing my insurance in the near future but I feel worse for those who are.

I would support some sort of a single payer system (still prefer state-by-state solutions) if we funded government via the FairTax. A single payer system with our current system is in my opinion simply another means of increasing government control, allowing government to reward and punish via the tax code while using socialism to establish permanent classes of haves and have-nots. Case in point, the tax on "Cadillac" health care plans - not to include union or government plans.

 

[StageLeft]

Interesting article on the beginnings of UHC in Canada


Tea Party, Canada-Style!
America's battle over health care reform started in Saskatchewan.

Nearly 50 years before Sarah Palin gave us "death panels," the American Medical Association was testing the limits of health care scare tactics in the Canadian prairies.

http://www.slate.com/id/2245037/pagenum/all/#p2

Interesting. I think Americans are right to distrust their government. The problem is that, stupidly, many look to corporate interests as something better.

 

[spidey07]

Do you know how little unemployment pays?
Do you know how much COBRA costs?
Do you know how much unsubsidized private insurance costs*? Yes, sorry, but your "cheap" and "excellent" private insurance through your employer is heavily subsidized by *gasp* the "gub'ment" through tax subsidies to your employer! 😱
Do you know how much an ER visit costs without insurance?
Do you know how much an extended hospital stay costs without insurance?
Do you truly believe that when a family's primary breadwinner loses a job, that it is just easy to go out and pay for a mortgage, private insurance, food, electric, water, etc. without a job? Are you truly that blind?

I reckon that you have never been unemployed with a family, a mortgage, etc. before. It is truly showing in your ignorance and your clinging to the ridiculous talking points. The sooner you open your eyes and get off of the talking points, the better. Too many like you, on both sides of the spectrum, who cling to their ideologies instead of investigating facts, facing reality and actually dealing with the (huge) problem at hand.

*Even the "cheap and affordable" private plans still cost a good bit of coin, and they barely cover anything. It's almost not worth it because you'll still go bankrupt after all of the co-payments, coinsurance payments and benefit limits. Let's not even get started on those dreaded words: "lapse of coverage" and/or "pre-existing condition". See, unlike you, I have actually done research on the matter instead of living in my comfortable little bubble, so I know what I'm talking about.

I know all of those things. Have worked for myself about half my career, lost a job, been on unemployment, everything you describe.

It's called personal responsibility and a savings account with 6+ months of monthly expenses (one of which is health insurance). Your sob story only happens when one doesn't take care of themselves or lives beyond ones means.

And that's just what I said, one has choices and one has to live with the consequences of those choices/decisions. Your potential sob story is a result of poor decisions.

 

[Genx87]

Do you know how little unemployment pays?
Do you know how much COBRA costs?
Do you know how much unsubsidized private insurance costs*? Yes, sorry, but your "cheap" and "excellent" private insurance through your employer is heavily subsidized by *gasp* the "gub'ment" through tax subsidies to your employer! 😱
Do you know how much an ER visit costs without insurance?
Do you know how much an extended hospital stay costs without insurance?
Do you truly believe that when a family's primary breadwinner loses a job, that it is just easy to go out and pay for a mortgage, private insurance, food, electric, water, etc. without a job? Are you truly that blind?

I reckon that you have never been unemployed with a family, a mortgage, etc. before. It is truly showing in your ignorance and your clinging to the ridiculous talking points. The sooner you open your eyes and get off of the talking points, the better. Too many like you, on both sides of the spectrum, who cling to their ideologies instead of investigating facts, facing reality and actually dealing with the (huge) problem at hand.

*Even the "cheap and affordable" private plans still cost a good bit of coin, and they barely cover anything. It's almost not worth it because you'll still go bankrupt after all of the co-payments, coinsurance payments and benefit limits. Let's not even get started on those dreaded words: "lapse of coverage" and/or "pre-existing condition". See, unlike you, I have actually done research on the matter instead of living in my comfortable little bubble, so I know what I'm talking about.

Pre-existing conditions are a major concern with insurance policy. But if you are healthy and young, a decent coveraged higher deductible plan is affordable. I went uninsured for a few years when I was in my early to mid 20s. Basically until I got a decent enough job that subsidized my plan 🙂 I was able to get policies that covered me in the 100-150\month range but took a chance anyways. COBRA is awful. Well it isnt awful, it just exposes you to the real cost of your plan under your employer. The only way I would suggest anybody utilizing COBRA is if you have a pre-existing condition that would deny your attempt to get a plan on your own and you need the coverage.

Unemployment varies by state. But the funny thing is in MN. They cover enough it isnt that much of a hardship when you factor in costs of transportation. My sister was on unemployment for a few months and said she broke even due to not having to drive all the time. My buddy has been on unemployment since Oct and has more money now than when he was working lol.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

I know all of those things. Have worked for myself about half my career, lost a job, been on unemployment, everything you describe.

It's called personal responsibility and a savings account with 6+ months of monthly expenses (one of which is health insurance). Your sob story only happens when one doesn't take care of themselves or lives beyond ones means.

And that's just what I said, one has choices and one has to live with the consequences of those choices/decisions. Your potential sob story is a result of poor decisions.

🙄

Hey, Rush is on in about half an hour. He'll tell you what you want to hear and tell you you're right. Yup, everyone who needs help is just a lazy, irresponsible bum. D:

Give me a freaking break. All you're doing is spouting off generic talking points. What's next? Health Savings Accounts? 🙄

 

[Genx87]

🙄

Hey, Rush is on in about half an hour. He'll tell you what you want to hear and tell you you're right. Yup, everyone who needs help is just a lazy, irresponsible bum. D:

Give me a freaking break. All you're doing is spouting off generic talking points. What's next? Health Savings Accounts? 🙄

What is wrong with an HSA?

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Unemployment varies by state. But the funny thing is in MN. They cover enough it isnt that much of a hardship when you factor in costs of transportation. My sister was on unemployment for a few months and said she broke even due to not having to drive all the time. My buddy has been on unemployment since Oct and has more money now than when he was working lol.

Most states aren't that generous. 🙁

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

What is wrong with an HSA?

How is one who is unemployed going to put money into a freaking Health Savings Account? Or a low-to-lower-middle class person who is struggling to make ends meet? How does it lower the cost of insurance? How does it help those who can't afford health insurance get covered?

It's just freaking hot air. More "tax cuts!", "personal responsibility is the only answer!", "gub'ment bad!" talking points. We need real solutions, not these partisan ideological "solutions" that are coming from the left and the right. Neither side is really interested in compromising to come up with the best solution for the people though, so we are pretty much screwed.

 

[zsdersw]

I know all of those things. Have worked for myself about half my career, lost a job, been on unemployment, everything you describe.

It's called personal responsibility and a savings account with 6+ months of monthly expenses (one of which is health insurance). Your sob story only happens when one doesn't take care of themselves or lives beyond ones means.

And that's just what I said, one has choices and one has to live with the consequences of those choices/decisions. Your potential sob story is a result of poor decisions.

You can be as responsible as you say and still fall flat on your face. What then?

Not everyone can pick themselves up by their bootstraps. I agree that more people can than who are currently, but not everyone.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

If this bill gets passed I will find another country to live in. If I have to have commie healthcare it might as well be somewhere that they've been doing it awhile. Canada is looking like a better option with every year that goes by.

Why don't politicians listen to the people anymore? We made a huge stink about this when Obama tried to get it through and now they still won't let it go.

NOBODY WHO KNOWS WHAT IT MEANS TO BE AN AMERICAN WANTS SOCIALIZED HEALTHCARE, AKA THE PUBLIC OPTION. It's just another method for the government to stick their hands in our wallets at the threat of imprisonment.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

"Affordable Private Insurance?"


http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-anthem-cash23-2010feb23,0,1654480.story

Health insurance giant Anthem Blue Cross said it was raising rates on thousands of individual policyholders in California because the cost of their medical care exceeded the premiums they paid last year.

At the same time, other parts of Anthem reaped a profit. A Times analysis of the company's regulatory filings shows that $525 million in Anthem's earnings in 2009 was shipped to its corporate parent WellPoint Inc. The analysis was not disputed by Anthem.

Anthem Blue Cross has been so profitable that, since WellPoint acquired it in 2004, it has contributed more than $4.5 billion to the parent company's bottom line.

Critics say some of those gains should have been kept in California and used to cover the losses on Anthem's individual policies. Instead, the company turned to individual policyholders to make up the losses with rate increases of up to 39%.


How's that "affordable private insurance" working for ya? $4.5 billion in profits in five years, yet they need to jack up rates by as much as 39%.

Big government is not the answer, but neither is big business. There needs to be a balance to find a real solution, and neither side is interested in hearing that.

 

[Genx87]

How is one who is unemployed going to put money into a freaking Health Savings Account? Or a low-to-lower-middle class person who is struggling to make ends meet? How does it lower the cost of insurance? How does it help those who can't afford health insurance get covered?

It's just freaking hot air. More "tax cuts!", "personal responsibility is the only answer!", "gub'ment bad!" talking points. We need real solutions, not these partisan ideological "solutions" that are coming from the left and the right. Neither side is really interested in compromising to come up with the best solution for the people though, so we are pretty much screwed.

I highly doubt a person who is that poor has insurance anyways. HSA's are targeted towards people with existing insurance. The goal is to introduce a little market principles into the equation. I have been on an HSA plan for the last 5 years. 4 of the 5 years in the plan I didnt hit my deductible and it has forced me to ask for prices when at the doctor. Because until I hit the deductible I am footing the bill.

But you are right. In the realm of the poor, an HSA is not of any help directly. It may if adopted widely enough help slow the increase in cost in the system by lowering demand of certain services. But I wont say that with any certaintly.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

How is one who is unemployed going to put money into a freaking Health Savings Account? Or a low-to-lower-middle class person who is struggling to make ends meet? How does it lower the cost of insurance? How does it help those who can't afford health insurance get covered?

It's just freaking hot air. More "tax cuts!", "personal responsibility is the only answer!", "gub'ment bad!" talking points. We need real solutions, not these partisan ideological "solutions" that are coming from the left and the right. Neither side is really interested in compromising to come up with the best solution for the people though, so we are pretty much screwed.

Quoted for truth. How can people support this crap? You might as well say, "YEAH OBAMA, TURN US INTO A BUNCH OF SOCIALISTS!"

Socialism:
1.
a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of productionand distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2.
procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3.
(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfectimplementation of collectivist principles.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

You can be as responsible as you say and still fall flat on your face. What then?

Not everyone can pick themselves up by their bootstraps. I agree that more people can than who are currently, but not everyone.

This. Catastrophic, unexpected events can happen to anyone. Life is not some neat little planned event that goes as scheduled. Personal responsibility is a huge thing, but sometimes, things happen. And there needs to be support there for the people who were trying their best and fell flat on their face.

However, any time you mention any sort of "help" or "support", there are those who scream "ENTITLEMENTS!" at the top of their lungs and refuse to listen to anything else.

 

[Genx87]

This. Catastrophic, unexpected events can happen to anyone. Life is not some neat little planned event that goes as scheduled. Personal responsibility is a huge thing, but sometimes, things happen. And there needs to be support there for the people who were trying their best and fell flat on their face.

However, any time you mention any sort of "help" or "support", there are those who scream "ENTITLEMENTS!" at the top of their lungs and refuse to listen to anything else.

Would you support a high deductible catastrophic option?

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

I highly doubt a person who is that poor has insurance anyways. HSA's are targeted towards people with existing insurance. The goal is to introduce a little market principles into the equation. I have been on an HSA plan for the last 5 years. 4 of the 5 years in the plan I didnt hit my deductible and it has forced me to ask for prices when at the doctor. Because until I hit the deductible I am footing the bill.

But you are right. In the realm of the poor, an HSA is not of any help directly. It may if adopted widely enough help slow the increase in cost in the system by lowering demand of certain services. But I wont say that with any certaintly.

Trust me, your doubt is unfounded and baseless. Unless you consider lower-to-middle "middle" class to be "poor". Some do, and the fact that you even admit that HSAs won't help anyone who can't afford insurance shows that it's really not a solution. It is nothing more than more tax cuts for the rich. HSAs are a horrible non-solution, and I get sick of Rush, Hannity, etc. spouting off all these lame talking points like they were real answers for Joe Average American. Sure, these talking heads support them because they are rich! We need real solutions worked on by both sides, but instead, we get two sides of the same coin doing nothing but looking out for themselves. It is despicable.

Quoted for truth. How can people support this crap? You might as well say, "YEAH OBAMA, TURN US INTO A BUNCH OF SOCIALISTS!"

Socialism:
1.
a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of productionand distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2.
procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3.
(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfectimplementation of collectivist principles.

I can't tell if you were supporting my post or against it? Regardless, I'm sick of the purely partisan, selfish hackery going on with Democrats and Republicans alike. We need real solutions to this real issue, but neither side is interested in anything else other than expanding their power and getting re-elected. It is truly disgusting.