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Dems introduce HR Bill 5717 severely attacking 2nd Amendment rights

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I have asthma and residual lung damage from bleomycin so I’m in a risk group as well. I just have no time for the #bothsides nonsense.

Well we're somewhat alike in that I'm #no nonsense. Facts really don't favor unreality and no party has a grasp of those with climate.

No? So I take it the Dems are going to pass AOC type legislation when Trump is out of office and "Vote for someone else" Joe will sign it?

Pull the other one.
 
Well we're somewhat alike in that I'm #no nonsense. Facts really don't favor unreality and no party has a grasp of those with climate.

No? So I take it the Dems are going to pass AOC type legislation when Trump is out of office and "Vote for someone else" Joe will sign it?

Pull the other one.

Dems meaning who? If the democrats somehow take the senate along with the presidency the median senator will be somewhere around Joe Manchin. To pass serious progressive legislation they are going to need a large enough majority that the median senator is well to his left.
 
A total of 36 states have laws requesting or requiring voters to show some form of identification at the polls.

I live in FL and have to produce a photo ID every time I vote. That has been in effect since 1977 without being considered "overly burdensome".
I did not know that. I think it is more or less common sense you prove who you are when doing anything important. I wouldn't want anyone voting who wasn't whom they say they are. But when I heard there was basically zero cases of voter ID fraud going on I realized it was a non-existent problem and stopped worrying about it. Let the states decide if they want it. And I recognize it's something Republicans are making a big deal about only because they feel it will at least somewhat disenfranchise low income and minority voters, who traditionally vote Democratic.
 
Gun lovers like myself have to face the fact that allowing guns to remain legal means a huge number of people will die from gun violence. My guess is that most pro gun people are not really willing to face the fact that their own egotistical desires are more important to them than other people's lives.

I dont think you are really looking big picture enough with that comment. The freedom to make your own choices will always lead to deaths as some will always make bad choices. Safety is a product of not being able to make bad choices, either by making a bad choice harmless or by removing the choice altogether. Perhaps it is egotistical do desire to make your own choices in life but certainly for me growing up in North America the value of personal freedom of choice has been billed as the most important thing you can have. Most wars including WW2 are billed as a way to protect our freedoms and our society constantly vilify's governments that harshly restrict the freedoms of their citizens.

The egotistical desires of pro gun people to make their own choices are simply in conflict with the egotistical desires of pro safety peoples to take choice away from others so they can feel safer.
 
It's pretty fucked up how Dems also said; "We're going to take the firearms first and then go to court."

Oh wait, that was Trump...
Yeah, this isn't a Democratic vs Republican issue for me at all. Trump isn't the friend of the lawful gun owner that he claims to be.

And personally, I lean liberal on many issues and conservative on far fewer. Abandoning your own judgement to the dogma of any political party is unwise. As is assuming anyone you disagree with is automatically a simpleton caricature of the opposition. Nothing like abusing your opponent to try to win a debate.
 
I dont think you are really looking big picture enough with that comment. The freedom to make your own choices will always lead to deaths as some will always make bad choices. Safety is a product of not being able to make bad choices, either by making a bad choice harmless or by removing the choice altogether. Perhaps it is egotistical do desire to make your own choices in life but certainly for me growing up in North America the value of personal freedom of choice has been billed as the most important thing you can have. Most wars including WW2 are billed as a way to protect our freedoms and our society constantly vilify's governments that harshly restrict the freedoms of their citizens.

The egotistical desires of pro gun people to make their own choices are simply in conflict with the egotistical desires of pro safety peoples to take choice away from others so they can feel safer.
Here we go again, circular logic accomplishes what when it comes to gun violence?
 
They were for disarming of Jews, not so much anyone else.
Historically, just about everyone interested in tyranny and oppression was in favor of disarming those they demonized and arming those who would act as their army to accomplish their goals. And then when those goals were achieved it was time to disarm everyone other than themselves and their most loyal.
 
False equivalency. You cant kill some by voting.
Owning a gun does not make you a murderer. In fact, way over 99.92% of guns in civilian hands are never used to hurt anyone intentionally or accidentally, let alone to murder. If you can't get that through your thick skull then we have nothing to discuss.
 
Historically, just about everyone interested in tyranny and oppression was in favor of disarming those they demonized and arming those who would act as their army to accomplish their goals. And then when those goals were achieved it was time to disarm everyone other than themselves and their most loyal.


While true, I’m not sure what that has to do with my original comment.
 
Dems meaning who? If the democrats somehow take the senate along with the presidency the median senator will be somewhere around Joe Manchin. To pass serious progressive legislation they are going to need a large enough majority that the median senator is well to his left.

I mean anyone most Dems would support. Somehow the environmental crisis wasn't important enough to install people in the House with few exceptions but they have selected an anti-environmentalist (in the most serious possible sense).
Sure he'll clean out the EPA and others which is good, but we can put that on the Monument to Humanity on the Moon and in millions of years or more aliens may study us and relegate our species into the bin marked "abject fools".
 
well between america's unique problem of mass shootings, firearms making suicides easier, and inner city violence, i'd say firearms are certainly a contributor to these problems, even if they aren't necessarily the root cause.
If you figure out how to disarm those who are causing those very problems, sign me up as willing to give up mine too. Just stop ignoring the fact that 99.9%+ of guns in civilians hands never hurt anyone intentionally or accidentally. You are trying to tell the lawful many that they need to disarm to stop the unlawful few when you don't even have a way to disarm those few.
 
Gun lovers like myself have to face the fact that allowing guns to remain legal means a huge number of people will die from gun violence. My guess is that most pro gun people are not really willing to face the fact that their own egotistical desires are more important to them than other people's lives.
That is a fucking lie. The overwhelmingly vast majority of gun owners do so safely and lawfully. You have no way to disarm criminals who are the actual problem by banning guns. Murder is already banned and we have a huge problem with criminals/sick/evil folks ignoring that ban.

The only folks who will be disarmed by further gun bans, excessive taxes, restrictions or licencing requirements will be the lawful who aren't murderers. And we'll be damned if we let you take away our constitutional rights and leave us at the mercy of armed criminals to make yourself feel good that you at least tied to do something.

Past assault weapons bans have done nothing to reduce illegal gun violence. Courts have ruled repeatedly that cops and the government have zero legal responsibility to keep citizens safe from crime. Criminals are being let out of prison right now so they don't get sick. Cops are refusing to respond to many crimes or lock up criminals for fear of the virus.

And these are all facts you refuse to face because your own egotistical desires to believe the world is a peaceful place and you are doing something to end gun violence.
 
I dont think you are really looking big picture enough with that comment. The freedom to make your own choices will always lead to deaths as some will always make bad choices. Safety is a product of not being able to make bad choices, either by making a bad choice harmless or by removing the choice altogether. Perhaps it is egotistical do desire to make your own choices in life but certainly for me growing up in North America the value of personal freedom of choice has been billed as the most important thing you can have. Most wars including WW2 are billed as a way to protect our freedoms and our society constantly vilify's governments that harshly restrict the freedoms of their citizens.

The egotistical desires of pro gun people to make their own choices are simply in conflict with the egotistical desires of pro safety peoples to take choice away from others so they can feel safer.

Where are you getting this "bad choices" always lead to deaths of others? Because I'm pretty goddamn sure that's not in the Constitution, Bill of Rights, or any Amendment.

Interesting. So you're Pro Choice then?

Nice deliberate way of framing that in a nonsense manner. No, the egotistical desire of gun owners is butting up against others non-egotistical desire to not be killed by guns.
 
You don't think those things, with the possible exception of some suicides, are actually caused by negative feelings? What if we lived in a world where most people were far along in the development of their human potential and excited by the good they can do for all life.
I wish it were so, but realistically, shit ain't like that. I refuse to allow my life or the lives of my family (heck, even my friends and neighbors) to be placed at the mercy of anyone willing to ignore your proposed bans.

Living in a cooperative society necessitates some concessions be made for the good of all, but surrendering the ability and right to self-defense is not one of them.
 
That is a fucking lie. The overwhelmingly vast majority of gun owners do so safely and lawfully. You have no way to disarm criminals who are the actual problem by banning guns. Murder is already banned and we have a huge problem with criminals/sick/evil folks ignoring that ban.

The only folks who will be disarmed by further gun bans, excessive taxes, restrictions or licencing requirements will be the lawful who aren't murderers. And we'll be damned if we let you take away our constitutional rights and leave us at the mercy of armed criminals to make yourself feel good that you at least tied to do something.

Past assault weapons bans have done nothing to reduce illegal gun violence. Courts have ruled repeatedly that cops and the government have zero legal responsibility to keep citizens safe from crime. Criminals are being let out of prison right now so they don't get sick. Cops are refusing to respond to many crimes or lock up criminals for fear of the virus.

And these are all facts you refuse to face because your own egotistical desires to believe the world is a peaceful place and you are doing something to end gun violence.
hahahaa, you keep on proving what everybody is thinking about you---you have gone over the deep end and have been totally TRIGGERED!!
You really do need to quarantine yourself from this deadly disease that attacks the mind and thought processes!!
 
I have asthma and residual lung damage from bleomycin so I’m in a risk group as well. I just have no time for the #bothsides nonsense.

Are they still straining to bastardize smoking (which was absolutely clamped down on) to freedom to own any gun they want without any restriction whatsoever?

Of course it’s not my feelings speaking as personally I don’t care one way or the other. If the science said owning a gun made you safer I would be all for it.

Accidental shootings comprise about 500 of the 35,000 gun deaths per year, so we are talking about 1.5% of gun deaths. Of these deaths, many are children who wouldn’t get any benefit from training. So what we are really doing here is talking about some wonderful compromise to prevent some fraction of one percent of gun deaths. That’s just not worth enough to compromise for. The better answer is no gun ownership.



Science surely isn’t the be all end all but I don’t find the protection of people’s ability to own lethal weapons to be a particularly worthwhile moral hill to die on. Maybe you do!



If you think both parties are the same and employ similar methods then you must not have been paying attention all these years. For example the coronavirus stimulus bill. What do you think the vote would have been with a democratic president?

Regardless, you do you. If you want to enable American fascism by not voting for its opponents after this November then that’s a moral choice you will have to live with.

Are they going to train animals too? Or are they forgetting all the instances where gun owners got shot by their dogs?
 
They probably are! The difference is if someone has negative feelings and doesn’t have a gun they do way less damage than someone who does.
And if someone needs to defend their life from a person with criminal negative feelings they stand much less of a chance of doing so than someone who does have a gun. And since 99.9%+ of guns in civilian hands never hurt anyone either accidentally or intentionally, why are you willing to allow the vast majority to risk harm in an impossible attempt to stop the criminal few? Who will just laugh at your ban on weapons the same way they ignore the ban on actual murder.

So, are you really fighting violence or just trying to make yourself feel good about doing something at the expense of our rights and safety???
 
hahahaa, you keep on proving what everybody is thinking about you---you have gone over the deep end and have been totally TRIGGERED!!
You really do need to quarantine yourself from this deadly disease that attacks the mind and thought processes!!
More insults, the cornerstone of a well though-out position in any debate.
 
But voting makes society better and guns make it worse.
You would likely have zero right to vote if that privilege hadn't been fought for and paid for in blood by an armed citizenry who stood up against a tyrannical government. Now say "thank you" and STFU since you obviously can't be counted on to do so again should it ever become necessary.
 
You would likely have zero right to vote if that privilege hadn't been fought for and paid for in blood by an armed citizenry who stood up against a tyrannical government. Now say "thank you" and STFU since you obviously can't be counted on to do so again should it ever become necessary.

That privilege was fought and won by the precursor to the US military, something I’ve served in.

The idea that people are arming themselves to fight the government is laughable nonsense.
 
And if someone needs to defend their life from a person with criminal negative feelings they stand much less of a chance of doing so than someone who does have a gun. And since 99.9%+ of guns in civilian hands never hurt anyone either accidentally or intentionally, why are you willing to allow the vast majority to risk harm in an impossible attempt to stop the criminal few? Who will just laugh at your ban on weapons the same way they ignore the ban on actual murder.

So, are you really fighting violence or just trying to make yourself feel good about doing something at the expense of our rights and safety???

It’s the exact opposite - the ownership of a gun makes someone MORE likely to be harmed, not less.
 
"Means of transportation", sounds like a car could be that.
That's a stretch. Sounds like a sovereign citizen and their right to travel B.S. to ignore our laws. But you are really going to try to use the fact that we regulate a constitutional right (even if we agree that's what driving is, which it's not) that is subject to reasonable regulation as proof that you can basically ban a constitutional right that "...shall not be infringed?"

Gun owners aren't asking to have all gun laws repealed. We are simply asking that you guys stop with the unreasonable proposed gun control that seeks a defacto ban on guns for the average citizen via burdensome taxes, registration, licencing and other schemes. Especially when your ridiculous stated goal of reducing gun violence has never been achieved one iota by past bans that have expired for precisely that reason.

Heck, if the folks who introduced this bill ever get it passed, do you think they will fire their bodyguard and give up their CCW permits?
 
Where does telling people to shut the fuck up factor in to a well thought out position in a debate? Haha.
If you don't want to address the rest of my words from that post, I understand. I wouldn't want to reply to something I had no counter argument for either.
 
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