Democrats Seek to Repeal 2002 War Authorization

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: ayabe
Not going to spread to Africa or Europe, not sure where that idea even comes from.

it comes from studying their history and the intentions of the modern-day extremists who happen to be very interested in establishing a caliphate that reaches from Central Asia to Spain and northern Africa...

but hey, you have a magic 8-ball that said it'll never happen, right?

I hope you're right, but it sure feels an awful lot like gambling...

 

[tomywishbone]

...but what about 9/11, and those buildings and everything?

 

[BMW540I6speed]

Charrison said:

However, it appears the dem are more interested in retreat, and making the militarys job more difficult, than finishing the job.

Where in this resolution does the word "retreat", or anything resembling that, appear?

That's right...didn't think so...

These "sloganeering" talking points are becoming completely laughable...

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: manicfool

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: palehorse74
nobody seems to be able to answer this one simple question: What if pulling out of Iraq DOES create a situation that is worse than the situation we have today? What if doing so DOES put us, or our allies throughout the region, in more danger?

Unless you're under the impression that it cannot possibly get any worse, then you have to answer this question honestly and debate the pro's and con's rationally; because, it most certainly CAN get worse... much worse!

Yes, it DOES suck that Iraq turned into a total mess, and yes, you can blame GWB&Co all day long for said mess; however, is bailing out really in our nation's best interests? If doing so leads to an Iraq that is even worse than it is today, and perhaps also leads to extended conflicts beyond Iraq's borders, what then?

These are the trillion dollar questions that I do not see anyone on the Left answering honestly. The Left is too busy pointing fingers and placing blame to think this through properly...

Think of it like blowing up some huge dam. Nobody dies at first, but millions will soon be washed away. A few more troops can't stop the flood. It is too late. Bush needed to be stopped in the 2000 election. All Americans now carry the debt of millions of voting fools. That is why I ask you right winged blind ones to cease to trust in yourselves. You have done all the damage to America is spades you could ever fear from the left. You fold have actually f@cked us royal. It is not a hypothetical. And I doubt we have begun to pay the price. So please stop having opinions and say mea culpa till it soaks into your bones.

I have to agree with Moonbeam here. It feels like there is a huge tsunami of consequences headed our way. It's still out in the "deep water" where we can't see it yet, but it's building. And when it hits its going to be a big one. My friends, we are all fvcked. Enjoy life as you know it while you can.

lol... talk about defeatism!!

wow.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: charrison
I have considered that and that by in large is happening now and I have noproblem with such a plan. However we cannot leave before they are ready to take everything on by itself. This is why the surge is important, so we can expedite the iraqis taking control of the Baghdad area. The iraqis are taking large, if not lead roles in much of the rest of the country. However, it appears the dem are more interested in retreat, and making the militarys job more difficult, than finishing the job.

Ok fine, 6 months from now if things haven't improved, are you going to be ready to say that it's time to leave? Is this the last chance we are going to give them?

The current leadership in Iraq seems more concerned with lining their own pockets and sucking Iran's male appendage more than getting themselves a stable country.

I see this as extreme foot-dragging as a way to keep us there, for one thing our presence there gives them someone to pin the blame on and secondly, we are paying a lot of the bills.

If you have been paying attention there has been progress, it has just not been as fast as everyone wants. The Iraqi army has been stepping and taking the lead in most of the country over the past year. Most of iraq is reasonabley stable at this point and there is little reason to think that the same cannot be done in baghdad.

The only people not even wanting to try is the left. They would rather leave and let the conditions in iraq completely fall apart. this is a defeatist attitude that will come back to bite us worse than staying and finishing the job.

Hmm I pay attention every day and things have in fact not improved much at all in the last 12 months. Anbar is worse than ever, Baghdad is worse than ever, even Basra has taken a turn for the worse despite Cheney trying to change the facts. The Brits are calling it quits because they aren't wanted there and the situation is getting worse for them.

There's a very big difference between being a defeatist and coming to grips with reality. It is what it is - a complete and utter failure.

A year ago, the Iraqi army had little play in Iraq. This has been changing and it has gone largely unreported. For the past year or so, the US has been clearing areas out and leaving the Iraqi army behind to hold and mantain the area. This for the most part has worked well and now the Iraqi army takes a significant or lead roll in the most of the country. There is little reason to think that applying this same strategy to the remaining the reaming 2 provinces that remain hotspots will not result in much better conditions.


But as far as basra goes...

linkage

For the first time the Iraqi army's 10th division, trained by British troops, will take orders from Iraqi military headquarters in Baghdad. Until now, it has been under British control. Major General Jonathan Shaw, British commander in southern Iraq, signed a memorandum of understanding with General Abdul Lateef Thu'ban, the 10th division commander.

British defence officials also say they have been encouraged by the role played by Iraqi forces in Operation Sinbad, a winter-long campaign designed to root out criminals and supporters of Shia militia from the Basra police force. In last week's Operation Troy, Iraqi and British forces sealed the city of Basra and set up checkpoints at border crossings with Iran.

The Iraqi army is standing up the brits stand down and this has been happening in all parts of the iraq over the past year or so. YOu can view it as bad news, but it is not.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
Charrison said:

However, it appears the dem are more interested in retreat, and making the militarys job more difficult, than finishing the job.

Where in this resolution does the word "retreat", or anything resembling that, appear?

That's right...didn't think so...

These "sloganeering" talking points are becoming completely laughable...

Leaving my 2008, reguardless if iraq is ready or not. The resolution states we are leaving, damn the consequences.

 

[BMW540I6speed]

Charrison said:

Leaving my 2008, reguardless if iraq is ready or not. The resolution states we are leaving, damn the consequences.

The Brit's just pulled out 1500 or so troop's. Don't you think they could have been redeployed to the badly neglected porus Syrian or Iranian border's

Nope, guess not, they are leaving...damn the consequences.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
Charrison said:

Leaving my 2008, reguardless if iraq is ready or not. The resolution states we are leaving, damn the consequences.

The Brit's just pulled out 1500 or so troop's. Don't you think they could have been redeployed to the badly neglected porus Syrian or Iranian border's

Nope, guess not, they are leaving...damn the consequences.

ANd if you read, the Iraqi army is standing up in their place....

 

[Bird222]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: charrison
However we cannot leave before they are ready to take everything on by itself.

Ok fine, 6 months from now if things haven't improved, are you going to be ready to say that it's time to leave? Is this the last chance we are going to give them?

I have yet to see answer to these questions.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Bird222

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: charrison
However we cannot leave before they are ready to take everything on by itself.

Ok fine, 6 months from now if things haven't improved, are you going to be ready to say that it's time to leave? Is this the last chance we are going to give them?

I have yet to see answer to these questions.

Try to learn to read then.

 

[Gaard]

Originally posted by: tomywishbone
...but what about 9/11, and those buildings and everything?

:laugh:

The sad part is 5 years ago that is exactly what Bush would've wanted to hear.

 

[jpeyton]

A single man should never have the power to declare war.

Take it away, and never give it back.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
A single man should never have the power to declare war.

Take it away, and never give it back.

It has never been that way in this county, It is congress who has the power to declare war and they allowed the president to do it.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: jpeyton
A single man should never have the power to declare war.

Take it away, and never give it back.

It has never been that way in this county, It is congress who has the power to declare war and they allowed the president to do it.

NO! Congress NEVER passed a declaration of war on Iraq. They authorized Bush to use military force as a last resort as a tool to attempt to persuade Saddam to disclose his non-existent WMD's. Instead, he used it as a first resort and foisted lie after lie and excuse after excuse to support the invasion. Those of us who saw through the neocon bullsh8, then, can only shake our heads, now, and wonder why those who should have known better didn't know... or didn't want to know.

In so doing, lead by the Republican majority, they abandoned their Constitutional responiibilty. They were on a roll and continued to abandoned their responsibilities of oversight on everything the Bushwhackos did before and after starting their war of lies.

I don't let the Democrats who voted for the war off the hook, either. The whole thing was a fuster cluck of Congressional anal cranial inversion.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: jpeyton
A single man should never have the power to declare war.

Take it away, and never give it back.

It has never been that way in this county, It is congress who has the power to declare war and they allowed the president to do it.

NO! Congress NEVER passed a declaration of war on Iraq. They authorized Bush to use military force as a last resort as a tool to attempt to persuade Saddam to disclose his non-existent WMD's. Instead, he used it as a first resort and foisted lie after lie and excuse after excuse to support the invasion. Those of us who saw through the neocon bullsh8, then, can only shake our heads, now, and wonder why those who should have known better didn't know... or didn't want to know.

In so doing, lead by the Republican majority, they abandoned their Constitutional responiibilty. They were on a roll and continued to abandoned their responsibilities of oversight on everything the Bushwhackos did before and after starting their war of lies.

I don't let the Democrats who voted for the war off the hook, either. The whole thing was a fuster cluck of Congressional anal cranial inversion.

No matter what you want to call it, congress allowed it to happen. Without congressional approval it would not have happened.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: charrison
No matter what you want to call it, congress allowed it to happen. Without congressional approval it would not have happened.

So, are you proud that Bushwhackos put out enough bare ass LIES to Congress to get that support? :|

Are you proud of their war of LIES has caused over 3,100 American deaths, tens of thousands of American wounded and disabled and probably hundreds of thousands of dead and wounded civilians?

Are you proud that Americans will be paying off trillions of dollars in debt resulting from their criminal war? :frown:

Are you proud that their war of LIES has depleted our military to the point where we couldn't deal with any new, emerging threat to our nation: :frown:

Are you proud that their war of LIES diverted our military from finishing the job they should have completed in Afghanistan, and the Taliban and Al Qaeda are now regaining strength, there? :frown:

Are you proud that the Idiot In Chief and his henchmen have shredded the rights guaranteed to every American citizen by the U.S. Constitution? :|

Are you proud that they've turned our friends in the world against us and willfully violated the Geneva Conventions against kidnapping and torture? :frown:

If you're not, what's your point? :roll:

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: jpeyton
A single man should never have the power to declare war.

Take it away, and never give it back.

It has never been that way in this county, It is congress who has the power to declare war and they allowed the president to do it.

NO! Congress NEVER passed a declaration of war on Iraq. They authorized Bush to use military force as a last resort as a tool to attempt to persuade Saddam to disclose his non-existent WMD's. Instead, he used it as a first resort and foisted lie after lie and excuse after excuse to support the invasion. Those of us who saw through the neocon bullsh8, then, can only shake our heads, now, and wonder why those who should have known better didn't know... or didn't want to know.

In so doing, lead by the Republican majority, they abandoned their Constitutional responiibilty. They were on a roll and continued to abandoned their responsibilities of oversight on everything the Bushwhackos did before and after starting their war of lies.

I don't let the Democrats who voted for the war off the hook, either. The whole thing was a fuster cluck of Congressional anal cranial inversion.

No matter what you want to call it, congress allowed it to happen. Without congressional approval it would not have happened.

Which party uses fear of terrorism and national security as a political weapon to scare the American people into right winged extremism? Republicans created a monster of the Id that is now going to eat them. The cowards among the Democrats played along our of fear they would not be elected. Are the Democrats who voted for war worthless sh!t, yes, but who is responsible for making peace a treasonous issue. That's your Republican scum that did and is still trying to do that.

 

[ivanwolf]

Before the flames start, I was against invading Iraq from the beginning since it shifted the focus away from the war on terror and Afghanastan. The problem I see with a general pullout at this point, is that if we pull out now without stabilizing the government there. We will have to go back in 6 months later to stop the Shiia from committing genocide on the Sunnis. This is a complete mess caused by our President and his war advisors, but I don't think it is a good idea to leave the majority of the Iraqi people worse off than before we invaded.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: jpeyton
A single man should never have the power to declare war.

Take it away, and never give it back.

It has never been that way in this county, It is congress who has the power to declare war and they allowed the president to do it.

NO! Congress NEVER passed a declaration of war on Iraq. They authorized Bush to use military force as a last resort as a tool to attempt to persuade Saddam to disclose his non-existent WMD's. Instead, he used it as a first resort and foisted lie after lie and excuse after excuse to support the invasion. Those of us who saw through the neocon bullsh8, then, can only shake our heads, now, and wonder why those who should have known better didn't know... or didn't want to know.

In so doing, lead by the Republican majority, they abandoned their Constitutional responiibilty. They were on a roll and continued to abandoned their responsibilities of oversight on everything the Bushwhackos did before and after starting their war of lies.

I don't let the Democrats who voted for the war off the hook, either. The whole thing was a fuster cluck of Congressional anal cranial inversion.

No matter what you want to call it, congress allowed it to happen. Without congressional approval it would not have happened.

You're splitting hairs and you know it.

Congress passed a resolution that gave Bush the power to declare or not declare war as he saw fit.

Congress never should have passed such a thing at all, but even though they did, they did not 'declare war' in any manner.

Bush was improperly given the authority to use force as a last resort, and instead used it as a first resort.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: jpeyton
A single man should never have the power to declare war.

Take it away, and never give it back.

It has never been that way in this county, It is congress who has the power to declare war and they allowed the president to do it.

NO! Congress NEVER passed a declaration of war on Iraq. They authorized Bush to use military force as a last resort as a tool to attempt to persuade Saddam to disclose his non-existent WMD's. Instead, he used it as a first resort and foisted lie after lie and excuse after excuse to support the invasion. Those of us who saw through the neocon bullsh8, then, can only shake our heads, now, and wonder why those who should have known better didn't know... or didn't want to know.

In so doing, lead by the Republican majority, they abandoned their Constitutional responiibilty. They were on a roll and continued to abandoned their responsibilities of oversight on everything the Bushwhackos did before and after starting their war of lies.

I don't let the Democrats who voted for the war off the hook, either. The whole thing was a fuster cluck of Congressional anal cranial inversion.

No matter what you want to call it, congress allowed it to happen. Without congressional approval it would not have happened.

You're splitting hairs and you know it.

Congress passed a resolution that gave Bush the power to declare or not declare war as he saw fit.

Congress never should have passed such a thing at all, but even though they did, they did not 'declare war' in any manner.

Bush was improperly given the authority to use force as a last resort, and instead used it as a first resort.

Like I said, call it what you want, congress gave him the authority, he did not and could not have done it on his own.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: charrison
Like I said, call it what you want, congress gave him the authority, he did not and could not have done it on his own.

Leave it to the GOP-led Congress to flip over like cheap whores and reassign their responsibilities to the executive branch. :roll: Color me unsurprised.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: charrison
Like I said, call it what you want, congress gave him the authority, he did not and could not have done it on his own.

Leave it to the GOP-led Congress to flip over like cheap whores and reassign their responsibilities to the executive branch. :roll: Color me unsurprised.

Tell me again how many democrats voted for the war resolution after getting the same inteligence ther president did? Like it not, the democrats are going to have deal with this issue now.

 

[Termagant]

Originally posted by: ivanwolf
Before the flames start, I was against invading Iraq from the beginning since it shifted the focus away from the war on terror and Afghanastan. The problem I see with a general pullout at this point, is that if we pull out now without stabilizing the government there. We will have to go back in 6 months later to stop the Shiia from committing genocide on the Sunnis. This is a complete mess caused by our President and his war advisors, but I don't think it is a good idea to leave the majority of the Iraqi people worse off than before we invaded.

I think that is a very noble sentiment but the political will does not exist to double the amount of troops in Iraq, or whatever increase would be required to really increase control of the violent areas of the country.

Couple that with the fact that the President doesn't see the need to increase troop levels substantially, and actually thinks if he continues doing what he has been doing for 4 years the "will" of people to be "free" will triumph over the "forces of darkness and terror."

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: charrison
Like I said, call it what you want, congress gave him the authority, he did not and could not have done it on his own.

Leave it to the GOP-led Congress to flip over like cheap whores and reassign their responsibilities to the executive branch. :roll: Color me unsurprised.

Tell me again how many democrats voted for the war resolution after getting the same inteligence ther president did? Like it not, the democrats are going to have deal with this issue now.

Zero. As you well know, Bush received intel that nobody in Congress got, including special briefings by Tenet.

One would think that particular propaganda point has been exposed enough times the Bush faithful would be ashamed to trot it out again, but I suppose when you're deperate, you blow whatever smoke you can. Mind you I think Congressional Democrats were just as irresponsible and cowardly as Republicans in handing that child a loaded gun, but that does not change the fact that the primary responsibility for the Iraq fiasco falls squarely on the Bush administration. They wanted it, they twisted intel to build a case for it, they lied to sell it. It's their tar baby and they need to stop trying to shift the blame to everyone else.

 

[trenchfoot]

easy answer here.

we withdraw all of our military and disband it...all of it.

then, we allow back into the military any and all of those former members who wish to volunteer to go back to iraq and stay there until bush is happy with the outcome.

next, we allow back in to the military all of the other former members who wish to re-enlist and not allow them by law to ever go to iraq.

new enlistees to military sevice will have by law the option to either go and stay in iraq or go elsewhere.

then, let's let all of those civilians who wish that we stay in iraq be directed to report for immediate induction into the military where they can sacrfice all their time, freedoms, income and all of their mothers, fathers, sons and daughters lives to their cause. let's also require that all of them remain in iraq until they "win" whatever it is they wanted to "win" there.

let's also require them to not complain about all the others that do not think like them, as they are getting to do exactly what they asked of themselves and not of others. they should be very happy about that, right?

then, let's get all of those who wished we not get invloved in iraq to cheer on and encourage all of those that volunteered to sacrifice their all to get the "win" or whatever it is that they were led to believe was our "purpose" to invade and conquer a people that had nothing to do with osama bin ladin and the taliban and those terrorists that started us down the road to bush's "war on terrorism" from ramming civilian aircraft full of innocents into the WTC.

everybody gets what they want.


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