Democrats fail again

[Elias824]

Also Andrew Carnegie hated income tax, but wanted a huge estate tax.
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1102-22.htm

 

[sandorski]

You are stating that royalty (something that is illegal under our constitution) is similar to wealth inheritance (something that is legal under our constitution).

If you still don't see the absurdity of that argument then you sir have a different perspective of reality than the rest of us.

No, I'm stating that Wealth Inheritance has similarities with Royalty, another form of Inheritance. Wealth Inheritance has similar affects to the Political landscape that Royalty has. I'm not advocating 100% Tax on Inheritance, but this idea that it is sacred and shouldn't be Taxed at all is nonsense.

 

[BoberFett]

As as an evil conservative I have to agree with this, im all for low taxes and allowing people to keep what they earn. After you die though, your dead I dont see why all your kids should be able to just ride off of your hard work for hundreds of years. I dont know about 100% I think you should leave enough to allow you kids to live comfortably. Even bill gates isnt leaving that much to his kids.

Maybe 100% after NationalMedianWage x 5? 10? I don't know. But passing millions to your children just seems to invite sloth. If you wanted to truly pass it to your child, start a business that employs people and generates economic activity, then put them in the president's chair when you die. Then at least they have to do something.

 

[BoberFett]

If the estate tax is re-instated, it will likely mean my inlaws' business will be shut down and 40 people put out of work.

My father-in-law is 87 and in not-very-good health, and is the owner of the business. He has enough assets to be subject to the tax, but there is no cash. If he dies while the estate tax is in effect, the assets of the business will have to be sold to pay the tax. The business operates at break-even (which doesn't bother him) and there is no interest from anyone wanting to buy it except to dismantle it for the assets.

If the business is dismantled, the jobs are lost.

Many, many people who would be subject to the tax do not have cash in the estate for the heirs to use to pay it. This is a particular problem for family farms. It just seems wrong that the same family could own a farm for 4 generations and have to sell it to pay estate tax.

Businesses should have some sort of protection from this, no doubt. Perhaps the heirs get first crack at buying the business or whatever portion they could afford, and after that the rest is distributed to employees? Company value would have to be calculated by neutral third party. In effect, the death of a sole proprietor would force the company to become an s corp and shares sold to heirs and employees? I don't know, but shutting it down isn't good for anybody.

 

[BoberFett]

I never get Logged out. :\

Your one word posts only take you 5 minutes to write.

 

[BoberFett]

Also Andrew Carnegie hated income tax, but wanted a huge estate tax.
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1102-22.htm

:thumbsup:

I have a lot of respect for Carnegie.

 

[sandorski]

Your one word posts only take you 5 minutes to write.

10ish seconds. I've spent 1 hour plus on some Posts though. Usually a waste of time as no one(or exceedingly few) have any interest in well thought out Posts. So I Post to the audience present.

 

[werepossum]

Dollar bills have Washington's face on them and we are admonished to give to Washington what is Washington's.

DC believes that it's all theirs and you ought to be grateful they let you keep any.

This.

One innate property in all people (or at least all conservative people) is a desire to make a better life for your children and grandchildren. Conservatives believe in doing this by working hard and saving; progressives believe in doing this by taking from people who have been working hard and saving.

There is no moral justification for taking wealth simply because someone has it. That is simply theft, whatever the justification.

 

[heyheybooboo]

The Fail is strong in this one.

The accelerated basis of estate assets in many cases has never been taxed for Federal purposes.

And I believe (at least for 2009) $3.5 million may be transferred tax-free; which covers 99%+ of all estates.

And also, IIRC, there are 18 families who are leading the charge to eliminate the estate tax for one year (so that 100s of billions of dollars in assets that have never been taxed can pass tax free to their heirs).





--

 

[QuantumPion]

As usual, liberalism generates the exact opposite of its stated intent.

When the owner of a business dies, his heirs have to pay the government 50% of the worth of the business, forcing the family to liquidate the assets. This puts people out of work and lets banks and corporations grab up valuable assets for dirt cheap.

The estate tax is a boon for large corporations and banks. The people that take the most punishment are, as usual, small business owners and families (which make up >75% of businesses). The uber-rich elite (e.g. the Kennedys) set up trust funds and what-not to totally escape the tax.

 

[CycloWizard]

Also Andrew Carnegie hated income tax, but wanted a huge estate tax.
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1102-22.htm

If he wanted the government to end up with his estate, why didn't he will it to the government? Why does everyone need a law to force everyone to do what they want done? I have an inalienable right to pursue happiness, but I have no such right to the property of some dead guy I've never met. This is the perfect example of government as extortioner.

 

[Argo]

As usual, liberalism generates the exact opposite of its stated intent.

When the owner of a business dies, his heirs have to pay the government 50% of the worth of the business, forcing the family to liquidate the assets. This puts people out of work and lets banks and corporations grab up valuable assets for dirt cheap.

The estate tax is a boon for large corporations and banks. The people that take the most punishment are, as usual, small business owners and families (which make up >75% of businesses). The uber-rich elite (e.g. the Kennedys) set up trust funds and what-not to totally escape the tax.

+1

 

[heyheybooboo]

As usual, liberalism generates the exact opposite of its stated intent.

When the owner of a business dies, his heirs have to pay the government 50% of the worth of the business, forcing the family to liquidate the assets. This puts people out of work and lets banks and corporations grab up valuable assets for dirt cheap.

The estate tax is a boon for large corporations and banks. The people that take the most punishment are, as usual, small business owners and families (which make up >75% of businesses). The uber-rich elite (e.g. the Kennedys) set up trust funds and what-not to totally escape the tax.

+1

18 families fighting estate tax, study says

Eighteen families, including the owners of Nordstrom Inc., The Seattle Times Co., Mars Inc., Koch Industries Inc. and Wal-Mart Inc., that stand to save $71.6 billion in taxes are financing lobbying efforts to repeal the estate tax, according to a study by two groups...

Only about 0.25 percent of Americans who die this year will leave an estate large enough to be taxed, the groups said.

"We are here today to expose one of the biggest con jobs in recent history," said Joan Claybrook, president of Public Citizen, a government watchdog group founded by consumer activist Ralph Nader.

The groups estimated the 18 families have spent as much as $500 million on lobbying efforts since 1994.

One quarter of one percent - LOL - or in the cases of the Waltons, et. al., 0.00000018% of American families.


Don't let these pesky facts get in the way of your propaganda




--

 

[TwinsenTacquito]

As as an evil conservative I have to agree with this, im all for low taxes and allowing people to keep what they earn. After you die though, your dead I dont see why all your kids should be able to just ride off of your hard work for hundreds of years. I dont know about 100% I think you should leave enough to allow you kids to live comfortably. Even bill gates isnt leaving that much to his kids.

You're a communist then. If you think the government has rights to your estate even though they played no part in earning it, you're a communist.

 

[CycloWizard]

18 families fighting estate tax, study says



One quarter of one percent - LOL - or in the cases of the Waltons, et. al., 0.00000018% of American families.


Don't let these pesky facts get in the way of your propaganda

Can you (or anyone else) offer any justification for an estate tax? The number of people it affects is completely immaterial, unless you think it's ok to steal from people simply because they're too small of a voting block to protect themselves.

 

[werepossum]

The Fail is strong in this one.

The accelerated basis of estate assets in many cases has never been taxed for Federal purposes.

And I believe (at least for 2009) $3.5 million may be transferred tax-free; which covers 99%+ of all estates.

And also, IIRC, there are 18 families who are leading the charge to eliminate the estate tax for one year (so that 100s of billions of dollars in assets that have never been taxed can pass tax free to their heirs).

--

So your position is that it is acceptable to steal, as long as it is an orderly process and you steal a lot from only a few people?

The Eighth Commandment is "You shall not steal". It is not "You shall not steal, except when someone clearly has more than they need and you could really use it", contrary to what progressives may think. Sorry, feel.

 

[heyheybooboo]

So your position is that it is acceptable to steal, as long as it is an orderly process and you steal a lot from only a few people?

The Eighth Commandment is "You shall not steal". It is not "You shall not steal, except when someone clearly has more than they need and you could really use it", contrary to what progressives may think. Sorry, feel.

Once again, you are conveniently ignoring this simple fact:

The accelerated basis of the gain on estate assets has never been taxed for Federal purposes.

I don't know why this is so difficult for many of you to grasp. Stocks, real estate, personal property, et. al., that has been in a family for generations has increased 1000s of times in value and those gains have never been taxed.

But to listen to the Death Tax Sock Puppets, we are stealing little Johnie's Family Farm or Jane's Small Business.

One link - that's all I'm asking for - that shows where someone lost a 'small business or family farm' worth less than $3.5 million.

$3.5 million estate ""tax free"" too small for you?





*--

 

[daishi5]

Once again, you are conveniently ignoring this simple fact:

The accelerated basis of the gain on estate assets has never been taxed for Federal purposes.

I don't know why this is so difficult for many of you to grasp. Stocks, real estate, personal property, et. al., that has been in a family for generations has increased 1000s of times in value and those gains have never been taxed.

But to listen to the Death Tax Sock Puppets, we are stealing little Johnie's Family Farm or Jane's Small Business.

One link - that's all I'm asking for - that shows where someone lost a 'small business or family farm' worth less than $3.5 million.

$3.5 million estate ""tax free"" too small for you?


*--

Why do we have a right to their property when they die? Why don't they have the right to determine where their money goes? Is there any difference between a man giving all his money to his child one day before he dies and willing it to his child? Is it really wrong for a man to decide to let his children spend his money instead of spending it himself?

 

[werepossum]

Once again, you are conveniently ignoring this simple fact:

The accelerated basis of the gain on estate assets has never been taxed for Federal purposes.

I don't know why this is so difficult for many of you to grasp. Stocks, real estate, personal property, et. al., that has been in a family for generations has increased 1000s of times in value and those gains have never been taxed.

But to listen to the Death Tax Sock Puppets, we are stealing little Johnie's Family Farm or Jane's Small Business.

One link - that's all I'm asking for - that shows where someone lost a 'small business or family farm' worth less than $3.5 million.

$3.5 million estate ""tax free"" too small for you?

*--

Why on Earth does the government have an inherent right to more than half of stocks, real estate, personal property, etc. simply because the gains on it have never been taxed? Let the government tax it, if it must, as any capital gains - when the gain is realized. Stock that is worth (and taxed at via the death tax) $10 million today may be worth $1 million tomorrow.

It's hard to find specific links to someone losing a business due to estate taxes - that's a man-bites-shrimp story rather than a shrimp-bites-man story and is not generally considered news - but there are some links for your perusal. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JZS/is_9_23/ai_n25005321/

Here is Congress' Joint Economic Committee from 1998. http://www.house.gov/jec/fiscal/tx-grwth/estattax/estattax.htm

Although these tax provisions do provide some relief, they are often inadequate to prevent the estate tax from breaking up many family businesses. Survey data indicate that the estate tax continues to be a primary reason why small businesses fail to survive beyond one generation. In fact, the estate tax is more likely to be the cause of failure during business succession than is the health or success of the business itself. A survey of family business owners by Prince & Associates found that 98 percent of heirs cited "needed to raise funds to pay estate taxes" when asked why family businesses fail.

Note that number - "98 percent of heirs cited 'needed to raise funds to pay estate taxes' when asked why family businesses fail."

Here's a friendly analysis of Obama's plan and related amendments by the very liberal Brookings Institute.http://taxvox.taxpolicycenter.org/blog/_archives/2009/4/8/4147424.html
It concludes:

Compared with current law, the Obama proposal would cut the number of taxable estates by 87% to an estimated 6,160 taxable returns. The average estate tax bill would be about $3 million, or 19% of total estate value.

An always charged issue is how the estate tax affects small farms and family-owned businesses. We estimate that under the Obama proposal, 100 family farms and businesses would owe tax. (We define such estates as those where farm or business assets are valued at under $5 million and comprise the majority of estate assets.) The Lincoln-Kyl proposal would cut the number to 40. Even under current law, fewer than 2,700 family farms and businesses would owe tax.

How many $3 million farms or small business have $570,000 in disposable income? How many do you think will be unable to raise $570,000 to pay Uncle Joe without laying off workers, selling property, or selling the whole thing? In Obama's world, only a hundred families being ruined by the estate tax is a good thing.

Here's another friendly analysis from the Washington Post circa 2005. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/23/AR2005072300741.html

A new study by the Congressional Budget Office examined estate tax returns filed by farmers and owners of small businesses in 1999 and 2000. The numbers that owed estate tax, the CBO found, were paltry, and the number without enough cash on hand to pay the bill even punier: In 2000, for example, just 1,659 farm estates had taxes due, of which 138 didn't report enough liquid assets to cover their tax liability.

Again, 138 ruined families is a good thing. (Please note that 138 is in fact greater than "just one".)

Incidentally a steeply progressive income tax and removal of all rights of inheritance are the second and third planks of Marx's Communist Manifesto, and the estate tax also helps the first - removal of property rights. Want to tell me again how Obama and the Dems aren't Marxist? Cue the apologists . . .

 

[Argo]

Don't waste your breath. The folks we're arguing against simply believe that it's ok to take away from those who have more than they need.

Some people believe that ends justify the means. I choose to live my life by a different standard.

 

[heyheybooboo]

More incredible Fail.

In 1999, the 'cap' on estate tax (at which assets may transfer tax free) was around $600k NOT $3.5 million.

Let the government tax it, if it must, as any capital gains - when the gain is realized.

Hey, Genius --- the gain is realized when the estate assets transfer to the heirs.

Don't waste your breath. The folks we're arguing against simply believe that it's ok to take away from those who have more than they need.

Some people believe that ends justify the means. I choose to live my life by a different standard.

If that is the way you feel, clearly your standard is one of no taxation of realized gains.

Is that you, Gordon Gecko?





--

 

[daishi5]

More incredible Fail.

In 1999, the 'cap' on estate tax (at which assets may transfer tax free) was around $600k NOT $3.5 million.



Hey, Genius --- the gain is realized when the estate assets transfer to the heirs.

The gain is not realized until the asset is sold to gain the difference in value at time of purchase and time of sale, not when it is transferred between people.

You also skipped the part where 98% of small businesses claimed that raising money to pay the tax caused their business to fail. Or did you just want to avoid the "one link that's all you asked for" that proved it hurt family owned businesses.

 

[CycloWizard]

More incredible Fail.

In 1999, the 'cap' on estate tax (at which assets may transfer tax free) was around $600k NOT $3.5 million.



Hey, Genius --- the gain is realized when the estate assets transfer to the heirs.




If that is the way you feel, clearly your standard is one of no taxation of realized gains.

Is that you, Gordon Gecko?

What's the matter, still can't answer the simple question you've been asked by at least three different posters here? Just poking your head back in to troll again instead of trying to address the one question here that actually matters.